will we ever see a 32 county republic

Dannyboy83

junder wrote: »

I would agree with you up until the creation of northern ireland we were all irish 1921 changed that, but its not something new its happened in every country in the world, were once you had one identy something has happened that has split it and new identys have formed. Your irishness is not an issue for me, i belive you are perfect;y entitled to define yourself as irish and celebrate your irishness free from intimidation or persecution, i just wish for the same rights to celebrate my Britishness.
For instance my identy is strongly ulster-scot, My family were border reivers, who were exiled to ulster by king james for our reiving activerties along the border with england, there are even songs about my family in scotland as we were one of the biggest reiving familes, did you know that in my family the tradition was for new borns when they were chrisnened the master hand was left unblessed so unhollowed blows could by struck with thier sword arm. Once a priest was traveling my family lands and he comment on the lack of churchs by asking if there were no christains here, the reply was no were are all (family name) here, this is my traditional background

Thats really interesting stuff to be honest mate, I didn't know about any of that.

It kind of makes it easier to understand why you don't feel Irish, but rather British (I think British would be the wrong word actually but thats a different discussion) given that you must have a totally different history and traditions etc.

Of course, in your situation being Half English, its a different story, but I'm speaking for the Unionist population, a lot of them must share a similar background so it would make sense.

Its kind of ironic now that your ancestors didn't want Union, but you would be in favour of it, but I guess that is the way the world works.I believe some of the Indians in America have similar feelings toward the USA



junder, do you think that Northern Ireland was a dumping ground for people who didn't support the British Union?
We saw the English do this with Australia and many other places, I'm just wondering what do unionists feel about this?

Were a lot of people forcibly resettled?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

getz

Camelot wrote: »

Or maybe just over the million mark, if you include Unionists from the South

their are over 700,000 thousand people living in the irish republic with british passports who are also allowed to vote in elections, and millions of irish people in the uk who may or may not have a irish vote ,and i often wonder if the northern irish would be willing to give up the free health service just to join the republic-may be they will if the uk would bankroll them

gurramok

getz wrote: »

their are over 700,000 thousand people living in the irish republic with british passports who are also allowed to vote in elections, and millions of irish people in the uk who may or may not have a irish vote ,and i often wonder if the northern irish would be willing to give up the free health service just to join the republic-may be they will if the uk would bankroll them

Source for 2nd time asking?

getz

gurramok wrote: »

Source for 2nd time asking?

www.reform.org

elshambo

Camelot wrote: »

Or maybe just over the million mark, if you include Unionists from the South

If by that you mean people in the south who do not want an united Ireland and are more than happy for NI to stay in the union
I think you you will find its a whole lot more than 1 million!:eek:

junder

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Thats really interesting stuff to be honest mate, I didn't know about any of that.

It kind of makes it easier to understand why you don't feel Irish, but rather British (I think British would be the wrong word actually but thats a different discussion) given that you must have a totally different history and traditions etc.

Of course, in your situation being Half English, its a different story, but I'm speaking for the Unionist population, a lot of them must share a similar background so it would make sense.

Its kind of ironic now that your ancestors didn't want Union, but you would be in favour of it, but I guess that is the way the world works.I believe some of the Indians in America have similar feelings toward the USA



junder, do you think that Northern Ireland was a dumping ground for people who didn't support the British Union?
We saw the English do this with Australia and many other places, I'm just wondering what do unionists feel about this?

Were a lot of people forcibly resettled?

We werent so much pro or anti union so much as being loyal to ourselves this website will give alittle bit of insight into the reivers

http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/Border%20Reivers/Border%20reivers.htm

Dannyboy83

gurramok wrote: »

Source for 2nd time asking?

According to this, Page 24,
http://www.cso.ie/census/census2006results/volume_5/vol_5_2006_complete.pdf

There are 112,500 UK citizens and a further 12,000 Irish/English, so I guess that 700k must be way out

(Note there were 60,000 Polish which seems laughable, I would have said there were 60k in Munster easily.:pac:


British Nationality Act 1981

The British Nationality Act 1981, in force from 1 January 1983:

* retained the facility for those born in the Republic of Ireland before 1949 to register as British subjects (section 31)
* provided that Irish citizens, in common with those from the Commonwealth, would be required to apply for naturalisation as British citizens rather than registration after five years residence in the UK (or three years if married to a British citizen).
* British subjects retained the right to apply for registration as a British citizen after 5 years residence in the UK.

[edit] Access to British citizenship for Irish citizens

As a result of the above, there is generally no special access to British citizenship for Irish citizens. The facility for those born before 1949 to reclaim British subject status does not confer British citizenship, although gives an entitlement to registration as such after 5 years in the UK.

Irish citizens seeking to become British citizens are usually required to live in the UK and become naturalised after meeting the normal residence and other requirements, unless they can claim British citizenship by descent from a UK born or naturalised parent. An Irish citizen who naturalises as a British citizen does not automatically lose his Irish citizenship.

Naturalisation as a British citizen is a discretionary power of the Secretary of State for the Home Department but will generally not be refused if the requirements are met.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland

Dannyboy83

junder wrote: »

We werent so much pro or anti union so much as being loyal to ourselves this website will give alittle bit of insight into the reivers

http://www.borderreivers.co.uk/Border%20Reivers/Border%20reivers.htm

Nice one mate, I'll have a look at that

junder

bit more info for those that are interested

http://www.electricscotland.com/history/other/border_reivers5.htm

junder

some video for thos that can't be arsed to read

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=59485164

Unrepentant

junder wrote: »

I would agree with you up until the creation of northern ireland we were all irish 1921 changed that, but its not something new its happened in every country in the world, were once you had one identy something has happened that has split it and new identys have formed. Your irishness is not an issue for me, i belive you are perfect;y entitled to define yourself as irish and celebrate your irishness free from intimidation or persecution, i just wish for the same rights to celebrate my Britishness.
For instance my identy is strongly ulster-scot, My family were border reivers, who were exiled to ulster by king james for our reiving activerties along the border with england, there are even songs about my family in scotland as we were one of the biggest reiving familes, did you know that in my family the tradition was for new borns when they were chrisnened the master hand was left unblessed so unhollowed blows could by struck with thier sword arm. Once a priest was traveling my family lands and he comment on the lack of churchs by asking if there were no christains here, the reply was no were are all (family name) here, this is my traditional background

Plantar history is nothing new.Curious how long have you been an ulster scot?? Before or after the GFA? As for Britishness well British is a collective term used to describe individual nationalities on the Island of Britain - English, Scottish and Welsh. As a UK citizen where do you fit in?

junder

Unrepentant wrote: »

Plantar history is nothing new.Curious how long have you been an ulster scot?? Before or after the GFA? As for Britishness well British is a collective term used to describe individual nationalities on the Island of Britain - English, Scottish and Welsh. As a UK citizen where do you fit in?

I fit in right were i am thanks

getz

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

According to this, Page 24,
http://www.cso.ie/census/census2006results/volume_5/vol_5_2006_complete.pdf

There are 112,500 UK citizens and a further 12,000 Irish/English, so I guess that 700k must be way out

(Note there were 60,000 Polish which seems laughable, I would have said there were 60k in Munster easily.:pac:


British Nationality Act 1981

The British Nationality Act 1981, in force from 1 January 1983:

* retained the facility for those born in the Republic of Ireland before 1949 to register as British subjects (section 31)
* provided that Irish citizens, in common with those from the Commonwealth, would be required to apply for naturalisation as British citizens rather than registration after five years residence in the UK (or three years if married to a British citizen).
* British subjects retained the right to apply for registration as a British citizen after 5 years residence in the UK.

[edit] Access to British citizenship for Irish citizens

As a result of the above, there is generally no special access to British citizenship for Irish citizens. The facility for those born before 1949 to reclaim British subject status does not confer British citizenship, although gives an entitlement to registration as such after 5 years in the UK.

Irish citizens seeking to become British citizens are usually required to live in the UK and become naturalised after meeting the normal residence and other requirements, unless they can claim British citizenship by descent from a UK born or naturalised parent. An Irish citizen who naturalises as a British citizen does not automatically lose his Irish citizenship.

Naturalisation as a British citizen is a discretionary power of the Secretary of State for the Home Department but will generally not be refused if the requirements are met.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law_and_the_Republic_of_Ireland

if you check on the website you will find that every 10 years the british passport has to be renewed -the amount of people living in the irish republic claiming british passports -is estemated to be over 700;000 that is the british gov numbers ,i can assure you they are not on holiday

Deedsie

Is it not possible to live in the Irish republic as a British passport holder because you prefer living in Ireland?

Being realistic about it, would you not be as insulted by Scots and Welsh men celebrating their unique national identity as Irishmen?

I know its unlikely the Scots are gonna vote for independence in the 2010 referendum, but there is enough support at least to hold an election.

Perhaps if England got that opportunity to vote the union would be dismantled.

Grudaire

getz wrote: »

www.reform.org

Ah here now, firstly can you point out where you find the 700k figure.

Reform Website wrote:

We believe the anti-British elements create unproductive and artificial divisions between the people of this Island and our neighbours. For this reason we would advocate their removal.

While I agree with the overall idea to reduce the illogical ill-informed Republicanism, what does that mean? Are we talking about internment here or what? A leithéid do ráiméis nár chuala mé riabh.

Edit: In fact even better:

Reform Website wrote:

I have found lots of e-mails from Reform in my inbox lately. They all
fascinate me. Here is my "wish list" of changes I would like to see in
Ireland. Although I am a London resident, I feel I have some interest in the
place. I was born and brought up in Dublin. The official name of my
adopted country is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern
Ireland. Some of my tax money goes to Ireland therefore !

T runner

jimmmy wrote: »

Why do more than a few people born in Scotland not support the Scottish football team, but instead wave tricolours and sing certain songs and wear celtic jerseys instead ?

As Scots, Glasgow Celtic supporters do support the Scottish national footbball team. Stop Bull****ting.

If you want to see an example of people who "support another team over your own", go in to most pubs here in Ireland when England are playing and you will find examples of people supporting any team other than the English team.

The English team is hardly Ireland's representative team now is it?
You will find this in Scotland too, and Wales, and France, Germany, Spain etc.
Even people in NI (on both sides) usually dont support England (except for some when they are playing the republic of Ireland apparently).

Not totally their fault ; it often has to do with the way they were indoctrinated / brought up. The way "history" was drummed / beaten in to many of us at school is well known. You do not see such racist bigotry as often in England ; most English people would support the Irish team if it was the Irish team playing (some continental side, for example)

Is this also true of every other country in the world who support other teams than England? This phenomenom isnt unique to Ireland is it?
This clearly has nothing to do with our educational system, which you know is superior in the teaching of history to that of the north. Your trying to twists facts to prove your biased points.

junder wrote: »

What about the British and Irish Lions

Yes the British part is Scotland England and Wales, the Irish part is Ireland.

junder wrote: »

There goes the tone of the discussion again now super-irish is here, shame i was kind of enjoying the dicussion.

Please dont try to silence me. I have as much right to be part of this discussion as you. Notice you avoid the hard questions yet again.
No comment to make on the views of one of your fellow northern protestants about endemic sectarianism in your community?

junder wrote: »

As i have already pointed out i am half english which makes the english team as much my team as any other, you may not be British but i am, Deal with it

The reason you do not support the Irish rugby team is the same reason that many loyalists do not support the Irish rugby team and the same reason that you say you are in no way Irish. It is because they/you detest being associated with anything remotely Irish.

By the way Junder you say you are an Ulster Scot. (even though you have never lived in Scotland and are not from there).

That is the lineage of your mothers name?

You do realise that 400 years encompasses about 16 generations?
You say your father is English that means 8 generations on your mothers side.
That makes 256 people you are equally descended from other than the one holding your mothers name. Are all of these Ulster Scots. How many are Irish?
Do you know that the Irish invaded and colonised a lot of lowland Scotland? Your mothers namesake may have been descended from Irish ancestors anyway.
You said yourself that Ulster was Irish before partition. This would make the vast majority of your ansestors Irish without a doubt according to yourself.

You saying you are an Ulster Scot because of your mothers name is like me saying Im French because my mothers name is Norman.

Do you not see how these attitude makes you look ridiculous?
That your identity is in reality defined as "Anything but Irish"?
In 50 years if there is still segregation (if unionists still have this hate everything Iridh attitute). Your community will be marginalised and ridiculous. The only reason remaining for your blatant hating of the Irish identity must be a very obvious sectarianism.

jimmmy

Unrepentant wrote: »

As for Britishness well British is a collective term used to describe individual nationalities on the Island of Britain - English, Scottish and Welsh.

People from the Canary islands can call themselves Spanish.
People from Sicily can call themselves Italian (as well as Sicilian ).
People from Maui can be American as well as Hawaiian.
People from Gozo call themselves Maltese.

If some people from N. Ireland want to call themselves British that is their right. For those whose allegiance is to the UK it is easier to say one is "British" rather than a " United Kingdomer " . They live in a democracy, which many of them and their ancestors fought hard to defend ( not least from Nazism, Communism etc ).

Grudaire

jimmmy wrote: »

People from the Canary islands can call themselves Spanish.
People from Sicily can call themselves Italian (as well as Sicilian ).
People from Maui can be American as well as Hawaiian.
People from Gozo call themselves Maltese.

If some people from N. Ireland want to call themselves British that is their right. For those whose allegiance is to the UK it is easier to say one is "British" rather than a " United Kingdomer " .

Hmmm - however problems arise where half the people call themselves one thing, and the other half another.

jimmmy wrote: »

They live in a democracy, which many of them and their ancestors fought hard to defend ( not least from Nazism, Communism etc ).

And the rightful owners of the land:pac:

LordSutch

Whats this business of telling other people what 'their' Nationality is?

If somebody says they are British, and presuming they hold a valid British Passport, and they want to be called British, then they are to all intents & purposes 'British' which is fine by me ............

No amount of telling them what 'their' Nationality should be, will make them exchange theirs for 'yours' :rolleyes:

getz

Cliste wrote: »

Ah here now, firstly can you point out where you find the 700k figure.



While I agree with the overall idea to reduce the illogical ill-informed Republicanism, what does that mean? Are we talking about internment here or what? A leithéid do ráiméis nár chuala mé riabh.

Edit: In fact even better:

go the the serch engine yahoo then type in british passports in ireland -that will lead you to the relevant site

T runner

jimmmy wrote: »

People from the Canary islands can call themselves Spanish.
People from Sicily can call themselves Italian (as well as Sicilian ).
People from Maui can be American as well as Hawaiian.
People from Gozo call themselves Maltese.

For those whose allegiance is to the UK it is easier to say one is "British" rather than a " United Kingdomer " .

Both why not British or Irish.

Thats really the reason is it, because its easier to say?

People from Trinidad and Tobago are defined as Trinidadian or Tobagan.

Yet people from UK of GB and NI must define themselves as British.
People from NI seem to have the "right" to call themselves "British" but do not have the right to call themselves "Irish" under a UK passport.

This is a deliberate suppression of the Irish identity in NI. It tells Irish people: Even though you are born in Ireland and feel Irish you are NOT ALLOWED to be Irish under the definition of our citizenship.

Deedsie

The defeat of Nazism was the greatest achievemnt in the history of the British empire.

And if that was what destroyed the empire it was a noble end.

Let whoever wants to be British be British, or Irish or Cornwallian or wherever.

Britain ruled a fair part of the world from 1497 - 1997. A great achievment, but you can hardly be upset with people who were oppresed during that reign for breaking away from the empire. Ireland was never a comfortable colony of Britain there was always agitation.

And realistically there always will be agitation, we all have ancestors too Junder.

Please respect my heritage.

junder

T runner wrote: »

As Scots, Glasgow Celtic supporters do support the Scottish national footbball team. Stop Bull****ting.


The English team is hardly Ireland's representative team now is it?
You will find this in Scotland too, and Wales, and France, Germany, Spain etc.
Even people in NI (on both sides) usually dont support England (except for some when they are playing the republic of Ireland apparently).



Is this also true of every other country in the world who support other teams than England? This phenomenom isnt unique to Ireland is it?
This clearly has nothing to do with our educational system, which you know is superior in the teaching of history to that of the north. Your trying to twists facts to prove your biased points.



Yes the British part is Scotland England and Wales, the Irish part is Ireland.



Please dont try to silence me. I have as much right to be part of this discussion as you. Notice you avoid the hard questions yet again.
No comment to make on the views of one of your fellow northern protestants about endemic sectarianism in your community?




The reason you do not support the Irish rugby team is the same reason that many loyalists do not support the Irish rugby team and the same reason that you say you are in no way Irish. It is because they/you detest being associated with anything remotely Irish.

By the way Junder you say you are an Ulster Scot. (even though you have never lived in Scotland and are not from there).

That is the lineage of your mothers name?

You do realise that 400 years encompasses about 16 generations?
You say your father is English that means 8 generations on your mothers side.
That makes 256 people you are equally descended from other than the one holding your mothers name. Are all of these Ulster Scots. How many are Irish?
Do you know that the Irish invaded and colonised a lot of lowland Scotland? Your mothers namesake may have been descended from Irish ancestors anyway.
You said yourself that Ulster was Irish before partition. This would make the vast majority of your ansestors Irish without a doubt according to yourself.

You saying you are an Ulster Scot because of your mothers name is like me saying Im French because my mothers name is Norman.

Do you not see how these attitude makes you look ridiculous?
That your identity is in reality defined as "Anything but Irish"?
In 50 years if there is still segregation (if unionists still have this hate everything Iridh attitute). Your community will be marginalised and ridiculous. The only reason remaining for your blatant hating of the Irish identity must be a very obvious sectarianism.

The only person displaying any hate here is yourself against the Unionist community. You really are very bitter
FYI Sectarianism is hatred of a person because of their religion not thier nationality, if your going to accuse me of something atleast get it right
but your right we need to start looking at ourselves as one british people, we are after all from all from the British Isles :P

junder

Deedsie wrote: »

The defeat of Nazism was the greatest achievemnt in the history of the British empire.

And if that was what destroyed the empire it was a noble end.

Let whoever wants to be British be British, or Irish or Cornwallian or wherever.

Britain ruled a fair part of the world from 1497 - 1997. A great achievment, but you can hardly be upset with people who were oppresed during that reign for breaking away from the empire. Ireland was never a comfortable colony of Britain there was always agitation.

And realistically there always will be agitation, we all have ancestors too Junder.

Please respect my heritage.

thats the point mate i do respect your heretige, i am just asking for the same respect back

T runner

Camelot wrote: »

Whats this business of telling other people what 'their' Nationality is?

If somebody says they are British, and presuming they hold a valid British Passport, and they want to be called British, then they are to all intents & purposes 'British' which is fine by me ............

No amount of telling them what 'their' Nationality should be, will make them exchange theirs for 'yours' :rolleyes:

But Camelot, The UK state officially tells everyone of its citizens that they are British. No Irish allowed under a UK passport.

All the actual forcing of identities seems to be officially done on the British side.

Deedsie

junder wrote: »

thats the point mate i do respect your heretige, i am just asking for the same respect back

First three lines of my last post. Is that not respect. A year ago i would have gagged saying that.

I have read about the British Empire, and it was very successful and impressive but also harsh and greedy and suppressant to any culture but there own.

And as a near neighbour to Britain, Ireland and the Irish bore the brunt of the savagery of the British Empire.

Irish identity is long in existence before the British empire, so no we are not all British because we live in close proximity to one another.

I think if the nation is ever united, it will be defined by the two groups, Ulster Irish and Irish.

Deedsie

T runner wrote: »

But Camelot, The UK state officially tells everyone of its citizens that they are British. No Irish allowed under a UK passport.

All the actual forcing of identities seems to be officially done on the British side.

So it should be a British and Northern Irish passport?

junder

Deedsie wrote: »

First three lines of my last post. Is that not respect. A year ago i would have gagged saying that.

I have read about the British Empire, and it was very successful and impressive but also harsh and greedy and suppressant to any culture but there own.

And as a near neighbour to Britain, Ireland and the Irish bore the brunt of the savagery of the British Empire.

Irish identity is long in existence before the British empire, so no we are not all British because we live in close proximity to one another.

I think if the nation is ever united, it will be defined by the two groups, Ulster Irish and Irish.

I was just being silly about the British Isles thing, hence the smiley face, its not a term i actully use in day to day life

T runner

junder wrote: »

The only person displaying any hate here is yourself against the Unionist community. You really are very bitter
FYI Sectarianism is hatred of a person because of their religion not thier nationality, if your going to accuse me of something atleast get it right
but your right we need to start looking at ourselves as one british people, we are after all from all from the British Isles :P

Antaganism doesnt work with me. The article I quoted was from a northern protestant journalist. Absolutely nothing sectarian about it.
Have you no comment on the sectarianism she exposes both in the unionist ideology and institutionalised in the Northern state?