will we ever see a 32 county republic

Grudaire

Camelot wrote: »

Just starting with the UUP, are you saying that the majority of the population of NI are living a lie?

Well of course I think that, but sure most peoples opinions differ so much on so many topics that this is true. Live and let live.

How many Unionists claim to be "Ulster Scots"? Saying that they moved to Northern Ireland.

LordSutch

The difference being Gurramock, that 'these islands' are within spitting distance of each other, we are intertwined geographically, intertwined culturally, always have been since the year dot, and always will be until the end of time (unless one or t'other of these islands sinks)

You mention connections between Italy & the USA (4000 miles apart), you mention British connections with Australia/NZ (on the other side of the Globe), but my point still stands about the indegenous peoples of the british isles and their 'local' identities > currently the majority of the population in the northern part of this island identify strongly with the the other 58 million british passport holders living on these islands.

It could be argued that its the remaining four million people in the Republic who are out of step with the other Sixty Million+ inhabitants of the british isles!

Just a thought.

getz

Cliste wrote: »

You mean this? British Embassy

Which says that:

"The Passport section processes some 12,000 applications for British passports, mostly from British Citizens resident here in Ireland."

Even if they all last 10 years thats still only 100k.


And can I say that people who come from Northern Ireland are not British. In fact they are as British as the Generations of Americans who claim Irishness.

... and the original owners of the land

december 2000, peter hain secretary of state releast the figures in responce to parlimentary questions. bar mininum of at least 75,000 IRISH CITIZENS hold uk passports in the irish republic however it could be as high as a quarter of a million--not my numbers the british goverments

Deedsie

getz wrote: »

december 2000, peter hain secretary of state releast the figures in responce to parlimentary questions. bar mininum of at least 75,000 IRISH CITIZENS hold uk passports in the irish republic however it could be as high as a quarter of a million--not my numbers the british goverments

Have the British government never told a lie before?

6.4 Million on this Island, the Island being discussed in this thread. 5.4 Million if not all wanting a thirty two county republic at least consider themselves Irish.

The Irish Rugby teams heroics at the weekend were celebrated by at least 6 Million of those Irish men & women.

Grudaire

Camelot wrote: »

The difference being Gurramock that these islands are within spitting distance of each other, we are intertwined geographically, intertwined culturally, and always have been since the year dot, and always will be until the end of time (unless one or t'other of these islands sinks)

Youn mention connections between Italy & the USA (4000 miles apart), you mention British connections with Australia/NZ (on the other side of the Globe), but my point still stands about the indegenous peoples of the british isles and their 'local' identities > currently the majority of the population in the northern part of this island identify strongly with the the other 58 million british passport holders living on these islands.

It could be argued that its the remaining four million people in the Republic who are out of step with the other Sixty Million+ inhabitants of the british isles!

Intertwined since the year dot!? Have you looked at Irish History? Ard Rí na hÉireann stationed in Tara had sweet FA to do with Great (:rolleyes::pac:) Britain.

Besides by that reasoning Spain + Portugal should be one, then because of their close links with France should be also joined with them etc etc

getz wrote: »

december 2000, peter hain secretary of state releast the figures in responce to parlimentary questions. bar mininum of at least 75,000 IRISH CITIZENS hold uk passports in the irish republic however it could be as high as a quarter of a million--not my numbers the british goverments

Link? (One that backs up your claim preferably), hell this time you've even changed your claim :rolleyes:

LordSutch

Cliste wrote: »

Intertwined since the year dot!? Have you looked at Irish History?

OK, so maybe not since the year dot. but certainly for the last ten thousand years since the first settlers arrived on these shores from Britain. A later wave arrived about 3.5k years ago (from iberia).

Cliste wrote: »

Besides by that reasoning Spain + Portugal should be one, then because of their close links with France should be also joined with them etc etc

Spain, Portugal & France are not a group of very closely related 'islands'.

Deedsie

Camelot wrote: »

OK, so maybe not since the year dot. but certainly for the last ten thousand years since the first settlers arrived on these shores from Britain. A later wave arrived about 3.5k years ago (from iberia).

Ya they left Britain 10,000 years ago... Didnt like it obviously :pac:

getz

Cliste wrote: »

Intertwined since the year dot!? Have you looked at Irish History? Ard Rí na hÉireann stationed in Tara had sweet FA to do with Great (:rolleyes::pac:) Britain.

Besides by that reasoning Spain + Portugal should be one, then because of their close links with France should be also joined with them etc etc



Link? (One that backs up your claim preferably), hell this time you've even changed your claim :rolleyes:

www.guardian.co.uk/u/k/2000/dec/03/ireland

getz

Deedsie wrote: »

Ya they left Britain 10,000 years ago... Didnt like it obviously :pac:

i think you will find more irish men have moved to britain over the last 200 years than the other way round[and still moving ]

gurramok

Camelot wrote: »

The difference being Gurramock that these islands are within spitting distance of each other, we are intertwined geographically, intertwined culturally, and always have been since the year dot, and always will be until the end of time (unless one or t'other of these islands sinks)

Youn mention connections between Italy & the USA (4000 miles apart), you mention British connections with Australia/NZ (on the other side of the Globe), but my point still stands about the indegenous peoples of the british isles and their 'local' identities > currently the majority of the population in the northern part of this island identify strongly with the the other 58 million british passport holders living on these islands.

It could be argued that its the remaining four million people in the Republic who are out of step with the other Sixty Million+ inhabitants of the british isles!

Just a thought.

And the Scots/Welsh chose to be part of the UK with an option to leave if they want nowadays.
The people on the other island called the Irish isle chose to leave their forced marriage with the British isle..

Its strange how you think people's living on the same island/islands/geographic region should be joined together through force of numbers, what happened to democratic decisions?

LordSutch

No force intended Gurramock, I just pointed out how natural it is for us to be intertwined with the island 'next door' > as opposed to far flung places on the other side of the Globe!

Would it not be strange, after ten thousand years (and given our proximity to each other), if there had never been any migratory trends between Britain & Ireland over the centuries!

gurramok

I must look up the national archives from 10,000 years ago then

Shane-1

What a strange deviation in a topic, I just clicked on, went straight to last page - expecting something about Ireland V Britain etc, and find ye have brought it back as far as the frickin stone age, here was me ranting and raving about '800 years' little did I know this goes back 8000 years, dirty Brits, must alter several rebel songs.......

Shane-1

Back on track though -

In my opinion we may have missed a great opportunity for a united Ireland with the Celtic Tiger, in my opinion the only logical way of getting a reunited country is to make reunification an attractive proposition for more moderate unionists and even probably many catholics/ republicans. People at the end of the day are often much more pragmatic than romantic, many republicans would even think twice about a united Ireland if it meant they were to suffer in terms of a poorer health service/ welfare service etc. We need to get the south back on track to attract the north, coercing unionists into a united Ireland will never work, they have resisted successfully thus far, with support from the Brits.
We have also forgotten and/ or abandoned the ideals of the signatories of 1916, do any of our main political parties give anything more than lip service to ideas about an Ireland of equals etc, not a chance, even the Labour party has morphed into Fianna Fail/ Fine Gael lite. Serve the rich, ignore the poor.
If you were a unionist, or even a republican living in the north right now, would you honestly support the idea of joining with a country where those at the lowest levels of society are ignored, and those in the middle or those just about making ends meet are taxed for the mistakes of the highest sections of society? I dream to see the day the country is reunified but at this rate? I wouldnt think it is much of an attractive propostion to your average person.

Exile 1798

Camelot wrote: »

No force intended Gurramock, I just pointed out how natural it is for us to be intertwined with the island 'next door' > as opposed to far flung places on the other side of the Globe!

Would it not be strange, after ten thousand years (and given our proximity to each other), if there had never been any migratory trends between Britain & Ireland over the centuries!

In the times you're talking about most people wouldn't have ventured more then 15 miles from their home in their entire life.

When the Normans invaded Ireland what followed was a clash of civilizations and cultures. Hence The Pale, the Gaelic Irish world on one side and the Norman English on the other.

Grudaire

Shane-1 wrote: »

If you were a unionist, or even a republican living in the north right now, would you honestly support the idea of joining with a country where those at the lowest levels of society are ignored, and those in the middle or those just about making ends meet are taxed for the mistakes of the highest sections of society? I dream to see the day the country is reunified but at this rate? I wouldnt think it is much of an attractive propostion to your average person.

I agree that there is a general apathy in Ireland, and that we have allowed the political parties to abandon their ideals with shameless disrespect for what made them, and gave them their support.

However i don't think the picture is rosy up there either. I think it's a case of same sh*t different place

getz wrote: »

www.guardian.co.uk/u/k/2000/dec/03/ireland

Firstly the link is: guardian, thanks for it, however I'm wary of newspapers for statistics! Either way it's not 700k

Camelot wrote: »

OK, so maybe not since the year dot. but certainly for the last ten thousand years since the first settlers arrived on these shores from Britain. A later wave arrived about 3.5k years ago (from iberia).

Just because they arrived from Britain doesn't mean that they had anymore contact with the place. If they met up for weekly pints I'd agree with your point, but Ireland has a clear different history with our own language culture etc. This is especially true when you compare Anglo-Saxon culture to the Irish

Camelot wrote: »

Spain, Portugal & France are not a group of very closely related 'islands'.

Yea, they're connected by land - surely that's a bigger connection

Shane-1

Cliste wrote: »

I agree that there is a general apathy in Ireland, and that we have allowed the political parties to abandon their ideals with shameless disrespect for what made them, and gave them their support.

However i don't think the picture is rosy up there either. I think it's a case of same sh*t different place



True true, I do agree with you there, I would add though that other governments, British included, seem to be getting some bit of handle on their economic problems much quicker than us, and yet we had this amazing booming economy for the last 10 years, right now its as though that boom never existed! Frankly bizarre, where did all the budget surpluses etc all go to? Someone needs to answer for the fact that all of a sudden we are plunged below all these other places that had no comparable recent eonomic success to ours.

Now that said also I can see your point, there probably is'nt a place on earth that knows more about shady, dodgy politics than up north!! I think Hitler might have been proud of some of the shenanigans that went on up there since the 20's.

junder

Svalbard wrote: »

I think you'll find the Beatles and Liverpool FC are best considered popular culture, not unionist culture.

I have stated how your culture appears to me, can you tell me anything positive about it?
An analogy - If the Australians had closed societies that excluded Aboriginals, if they held annual marches celebrating the murder of Aboriginals and the taking of their land, do you think that would be respectfully tolerated under the banner of culture?

Its interesting how you say a united Ireland would not benefit you - because you would be in the minority for a change, unable to hide behind your border in your apartheid state. I suppose it would be difficult to live in the real world after decades in your cocoon.
Your culture's existence is entirely artificial; it is fueled by hate and little else.

if actully read what i had writen instead of just bing reactionary you would see that wrote that the beatles were part of unionist culture not that the were unionist culture, you see in northern ireland we do have TV's, radios and even the internet so much like any other western european culture, populer culture is a big part of it, after all we are not ludites.
So you think catholics should be allowed to join the orange lodge, why? since the orange lodge is a group the celebrates the reformation. Moreover i am aware of no parades that celebrate the murder of catholics. Personlly have a great time over the 12th, i catch up with old friends, it brings mine and other familes together and i generally have great day, granted you get drunk arsholes that cause hassle but that is one of those unfortune things about the day, much like those drunk arsholes who rioted on saint patricks day in belfast.

Shane-1

junder wrote: »

if actully read what i had writen instead of just bing reactionary you would see that wrote that the beatles were part of unionist culture not that the were unionist culture, you see in northern ireland we do have TV's, radios and even the internet so much like any other western european culture, populer culture is a big part of it, after all we are not ludites.
So you think catholics should be allowed to join the orange lodge, why? since the orange lodge is a group the celebrates the reformation. Moreover i am aware of no parades that celebrate the murder of catholics. Personlly have a great time over the 12th, i catch up with old friends, it brings mine and other familes together and i generally have great day, granted you get drunk arsholes that cause hassle but that is one of those unfortune things about the day, much like those drunk arsholes who rioted on saint patricks day in belfast.

Ah lord I dont even know where to start! What hypocracy, you cant possibly see why the catholic population would not want this show of triumphalism traipsing through the streets every year? My god above, and yet if you remember recently enough there was a catholic recruit to the PSNI who wore his grandfathers War of Independence medal to his passing out ceremony and ye were all up in arms, ye can celebrate yer history by marching through towns and cities waving banners and belting massive drums, yet a catholic cant celebrate his (possibly equally devisive) history by wearing a glorified button!! No wonder there still hasnt been integration and a real peace up north with characters holding opinions like that.

Shane-1

I suppose in relation to the Beatles it makes no sense to be making a point that they are part of unionist culture, for gods sake they are the biggest band that ever existed, they are surely by your logic then a fabric of the culture of every bloody race and people of the world. By the way, I think its 3 of that particular band that trace very strong Irish roots, John Lennon in particular was outspoken about it and voiced support for the catholic population of the north, oh dear :rolleyes:

Shane-1

We should finish this thread too while we are on page 32, quick before Junder looks for the last 6 pages to be moved to a seperate thread.......

Bottle_of_Smoke

Shane-1 wrote: »

Ah lord I dont even know where to start! What hypocracy, you cant possibly see why the catholic population would not want this show of triumphalism traipsing through the streets every year? My god above, and yet if you remember recently enough there was a catholic recruit to the PSNI who wore his grandfathers War of Independence medal to his passing out ceremony and ye were all up in arms, ye can celebrate yer history by marching through towns and cities waving banners and belting massive drums, yet a catholic cant celebrate his (possibly equally devisive) history by wearing a glorified button!! No wonder there still hasnt been integration and a real peace up north with characters holding opinions like that.

You're making a fool of yourself here. You just created Junder's confirmed position on the basis of other unionists position, I'd say that kind of thinking is the real reason there hasn't been complete integration.

junder

Shane-1 wrote: »

Ah lord I dont even know where to start! What hypocracy, you cant possibly see why the catholic population would not want this show of triumphalism traipsing through the streets every year? My god above, and yet if you remember recently enough there was a catholic recruit to the PSNI who wore his grandfathers War of Independence medal to his passing out ceremony and ye were all up in arms, ye can celebrate yer history by marching through towns and cities waving banners and belting massive drums, yet a catholic cant celebrate his (possibly equally devisive) history by wearing a glorified button!! No wonder there still hasnt been integration and a real peace up north with characters holding opinions like that.

bad example there since you are correct a psni officer did graduate with his great grandfathers IRA medal visabul for all to see and yet my tattoo which can be seen by no one and which is dedicated to my great grandfather who died at the somme would pevent me from being allowed to join because its deemed poiltical. Moreover we are constanty acused of being bigots and yet we have black african orange lodges in Ghana and Native American orange lodges in Canada.
Every other week in the news in northern ireland we hear of orange halls in the country being burnt out on a weekly basis, years of history and priceless banners destroyed and yet we are accused of being the bigots. Frankly i believe in live and let live, i respect the irish culture, i just we would get the same respect back

Shane-1

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

You're making a fool of yourself here. You just created Junder's confirmed position on the basis of other unionists position, I'd say that kind of thinking is the real reason there hasn't been complete integration.

Im making a fool of myself? BY creating Junder's confirmed position on the basis of other unionists position? Sorry You'll have to translate that second sentence for me? We speak English down here, that must be that Ulster Scots dialect I've heard about?

And (as Bhearla le do thoil) could you please explain your assertion to me? I was highlighting the hypocracy that certain individuals hold, you appear to be highlighting your ignorance of the arguament

Grudaire

junder wrote: »

I just wish we would get the same respect back

i think this is the problem (From both sides). As long as the minority keep divisons alive (and give an excuse for the divisions) we will NEVER see a United Ireland

Shane-1

junder wrote: »

bad example there since you are correct a psni officer did graduate with his great grandfathers IRA medal visabul for all to see and yet my tattoo which can be seen by no one and which is dedicated to my great grandfather who died at the somme would pevent me from being allowed to join because its deemed poiltical. Moreover we are constanty acused of being bigots and yet we have black african orange lodges in Ghana and Native American orange lodges in Canada.
Every other week in the news in northern ireland we hear of orange halls in the country being burnt out on a weekly basis, years of history and priceless banners destroyed and yet we are accused of being the bigots. Frankly i believe in live and let live, i respect the irish culture, i just we would get the same respect back

Here what about sectarian attacks on catholic primary schools, heres the latest http://www.belfastmedia.com/home_article.php?ID=1635
Its a terrible disgrace to burn down an orange lodge where grown men go to play dress up yet its ok to involve young kids? Interesting point that..

You dont seem to be getting my point about those marches, do you not see how they would annoy a person? Lets say Ireland gets united in the future, and you live on a nice street somewhere in the north, and every year our bunch of yahoo's comes bounding up this nice quiet street celebrating taking power over you, how would you feel? Intimidated? second class?

And I'm delighted you say you respect Irish culture, I think you have every reason to, its your culture too, the state of Northern Ireland is a reasonably recent construct. And I respect your culture, however I wouldnt want a lot of it shoved in my face, but I respect it. The Somme is a huge moment in history and you should feel extremely proud to have had a relative involved, same I'm sure as I am, I had a grandfather in the West Clare brigade in the War of Independence. Also I have studied the Battle of the Boyne, Billy Vs James etc, its great history, I would be proud of it if it hadnt have led to so much trouble since. King Billy seems to have been a fair and just man, a respectable man, I'm sure he wouldnt be the slightest bit happy about whats been done in his name since. And King James certainly wasnt fighting for the sake of catholics or the Irish, he wished to hold power.

luckyfrank

Lets just have the whole island back in the commonwealth, federalise ireland lets ulster people have the right to retain duel citizenship

Everybodys happy

United Ireland but not as we know it jim !

Svalbard

Camelot wrote: »

Spain, Portugal & France are not a group of very closely related 'islands'.

You can walk from Spain to France, or Portugal to Spain! You can have one leg in two countries if you like. Saying 'these closely related isles' should share one national identity, but countries with actual land borders do not is ludicrous. Such arbitrary lines cannot define nationhood. The fact remains that the partition of this island is a totally artificial construct and should be reversed before it does any more damage.

junder wrote: »

if actully read what i had writen instead of just bing reactionary you would see that wrote that the beatles were part of unionist culture not that the were unionist culture, you see in northern ireland we do have TV's, radios and even the internet so much like any other western european culture, populer culture is a big part of it, after all we are not ludites.
So you think catholics should be allowed to join the orange lodge, why? since the orange lodge is a group the celebrates the reformation. Moreover i am aware of no parades that celebrate the murder of catholics. Personlly have a great time over the 12th, i catch up with old friends, it brings mine and other familes together and i generally have great day, granted you get drunk arsholes that cause hassle but that is one of those unfortune things about the day, much like those drunk arsholes who rioted on saint patricks day in belfast.

I asked what unionist culture is - I mentioned the orange order, marching season and general anti-Irishness. The best you could come up with to describe your culture is the Beatles and Liverpool FC - facets of popular culture common to many people. So unionist culture = popular culture + bigotry? Charming.

What a pleasant way of putting it - the orange order "celebrates the reformation". Is that not what the protestant religions do just fine? The OO's proclaimed purpose is to oppose Catholicism and the Vatican, to oversee the end of the RC. Members of the RC or their relatives are not allowed to join. The closest comparison I can think of is the KKK.

How dare you compare the 12th of July marches to St. Patrick's Day - they are not in any way comparable. The marches are about celebrating the dominance of one culture over another. St. Patrick's Day is about the celebration of the arrival of christianity in Ireland and about Irish culture in general; it excludes no-one. Unionists insist on portraying it as an equally bigoted and hateful counterpart to the marching season to lend credibility to their own sectarian 'holiday'.

junder wrote: »

bad example there since you are correct a psni officer did graduate with his great grandfathers IRA medal visabul for all to see and yet my tattoo which can be seen by no one and which is dedicated to my great grandfather who died at the somme would pevent me from being allowed to join because its deemed poiltical. Moreover we are constanty acused of being bigots and yet we have black african orange lodges in Ghana and Native American orange lodges in Canada.
Every other week in the news in northern ireland we hear of orange halls in the country being burnt out on a weekly basis, years of history and priceless banners destroyed and yet we are accused of being the bigots. Frankly i believe in live and let live, i respect the irish culture, i just we would get the same respect back

Anti-Irish, anti-Cathloic bigots. Having African lodge members does not excuse this.

Lodges burnt down every other week? Must be none left by now. I guess if its that common thats why the newspapers and TV newsrooms (including UTV) don't bother reporting it.

How can you expect any right-minded person to respect a culture that is based on bigotry and sectarianism? Must we really respect your right to celebrate how the Ulster Plantation stole land from natives and how Catholics were killed? Must we respect your institutions that wish to see the destruction of our religion?

K-9

Svalbard wrote: »

What a pleasant way of putting it - the orange order "celebrates the reformation". Is that not what the protestant religions do just fine? The OO's proclaimed purpose is to oppose Catholicism and the Vatican, to oversee the end of the RC. Members of the RC or their relatives are not allowed to join. The closest comparison I can think of is the KKK.

In fairness, what is particularly wrong with wanting to see the end of the Catholic Church?

Svalbard wrote:

How can you expect any right-minded person to respect a culture that is based on bigotry and sectarianism? Must we really respect your right to celebrate how the Ulster Plantation stole land from natives and how Catholics were killed? Must we respect your institutions that wish to see the destruction of our religion?

In my village, we do it every day.

Exile 1798

junder wrote: »

if actully read what i had writen instead of just bing reactionary you would see that wrote that the beatles were part of unionist culture not that the were unionist culture, you see in northern ireland we do have TV's, radios and even the internet so much like any other western european culture, populer culture is a big part of it, after all we are not ludites.

junder, I really do enjoy your unique take on Unionist culture. (how can a poltical preference be called a culture anyway?)

The Beatles? Really?

Paul McCartney wrote the song "Give Ireland back to the Irish". John Lennon attended a Troops Out Rally carrying a "Victory to the IRA" poster. He also wrote a song called Sunday Bloody Sunday, which unlike that U2 song of the same name didn't pull any punches.

Well it was Sunday bloody Sunday
When they shot the people there
The cries of thirteen martyrs
Filled the Free Derry air
Is there any one amongst you
Dare to blame it on the kids?
Not a soldier boy was bleeding
When they nailed the coffin lids!

Sunday bloody Sunday
Bloody Sunday's the day!

You claim to be majority
Well you know that it's a lie
You're really a minority
On this sweet emerald isle
When Stormont bans our marches
They've got a lot to learn
Internment is no answer
It's those mothers' turn to burn!

Sunday bloody Sunday
Bloody Sunday's the day!

You anglo pigs and scotties
Sent to colonize the North
You wave your bloody Union Jack
And you know what it's worth!
How dare you hold to ransom
A people proud and free
Keep Ireland for the Irish
Put the English back to sea!

Sunday bloody Sunday
Bloody Sunday's the day!

Well, it's always bloody Sunday
In the concentration camps
Keep Falls Road free forever
From the bloody English hands
Repatriate to Britain
All of you who call it home
Leave Ireland to the Irish
Not for London or for Rome!

Sunday bloody Sunday
Bloody Sunday's the day!

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Sunday-Bloody-Sunday-lyrics-John-Lennon/C79BAF6AEF2A9E5C48256BCA0007A62A