will we ever see a 32 county republic

Bog Butter

The crucial point to make about Unionist culture I think is that it was born as a result of, and has grown in reaction to, an opposing culture, that being Irish culture. So with that in mind it would be very hard for Unionism not to be discrimatory.

While Irish culture did not elvolve in the same way it too has been abused and damaged by the Irish Republican movement. All aspects of Irish culture are used to counter Unionism/Loyalism to a point where it is rejected and scorned.

So what you have is two opposing groups in Northern Ireland who use and abuse their cultural as part of their tribal warfare. But that is unique to Northern Ireland. Northern Nationalism is a strange breed of Irishness and Unionism is a strange breed of Britishness. But they only exist because the other exists.

I think it would be wrong to portray Unionism as normal. It would be wrong to simply pick out a few elements of British mainland culture to describe something which is unique to this island. But it would also be wrong view Irish culture on how it manifiested through Northern Nationalism and Republicanism.

Northern Ireland is far from normal. It is strange and peculiar looking. Hopefully there will come a time when it will be normal. A time when everyone there will not feel the need to ram each others culture down each others throats.

Deedsie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_general_election,_1918#Results

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Assembly_election,_2007#The_results

I was just looking at these two election results on Wikepedia.

It does show that the nationalist parties have increased there vote in the North over the last 90 years.

And i know not all Catholics/nationalist party supporters want a united Ireland, but i dont think this can be completely ignored either.

Every constituency bordering the Republic now has a Catholic/nationalist majority. Whereas back pre partition alot of constituencies that are now Nationalist party dominated were unionist.

Is there anything can be taken from that?

jimmmy

Deedsie wrote: »

Every constituency bordering the Republic now has a Catholic/nationalist majority. Whereas back pre partition alot of constituencies that are now Nationalist party dominated were unionist.

Is there anything can be taken from that?

I guess the PIRA targetting only sons during the troubles ( with the excuse they were part time security force members or whatever ), the general Republican intimidation ( up to and including the murders at Darkley church for example ) and the Catholic intolerance for other peoples religion in mixed marriages did not help.

Deedsie

jimmmy wrote: »

I guess the PIRA targetting only sons during the troubles ( with the excuse they were part time security force members or whatever ), the general Republican intimidation ( up to and including the murders at Darkley church for example ) and the Catholic intolerance for other peoples religion in mixed marriages did not help.

Wasnt expecting that type of an answer. I was looking more along the lines of the change in the electorate.

There hasnt been much change in Carrickfergus for example. Perhaps you would concede that unionists are equally intolerant in North Down and major parts of Antrim.

Mexician

Deedsie wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_general_election,_1918#Results

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Ireland_Assembly_election,_2007#The_results

I was just looking at these two election results on Wikepedia.

It does show that the nationalist parties have increased there vote in the North over the last 90 years.

And i know not all Catholics/nationalist party supporters want a united Ireland, but i dont think this can be completely ignored either.

Every constituency bordering the Republic now has a Catholic/nationalist majority. Whereas back pre partition alot of constituencies that are now Nationalist party dominated were unionist.

Is there anything can be taken from that?

The irish are jealous of our high levels of intelligence and good looks. We have jobs, good looking women, a good ulster rugby team and the Sam Maguire.

Deedsie

Mexician wrote: »

The irish are jealous of our high levels of intelligence and good looks. We have jobs, good looking women, a good ulster rugby team and the Sam Maguire.

Do you see what county i am from. The Sam Maguire doesnt worry me one iota. If twas Liam McCarthy resting around the Lagan. Id be worrying.

Mexician

i see it but cant make it out. is it one of the Arainn islands off Galway. so ye have a hurling team??

Deedsie

Mexician wrote: »

i see it but cant make it out. is it one of the Arainn islands off Galway. so ye have a hurling team??

Oh ya... Its Tipperary.

jimmmy

Deedsie wrote: »

I was looking more along the lines of the change in the electorate.

The electorate has changed, obviously, and the reasons are well known. As one Northener put it to me once, that is why some in N. Ireland saw themselves as under siege.

Deedsie wrote: »

There hasnt been much change in Carrickfergus for example..

You were talking about how "Every constituency bordering the Republic ", not Carrickfergus

Deedsie

jimmmy wrote: »

The electorate has changed, obviously, and the reasons are well known. As one Northener put it to me once, that is why some in N. Ireland saw themselves as under siege.



You were talking about how "Every constituency bordering the Republic ", not Carrickfergus

I didnt intend to limit the discussion. Feel free to talk about whatever you like. I dont know enough about the situation. Trying to find out more.

Is there something sinister in the way the electorate has changed?

Shane-1

A decent Ulster rugby team, haha, good one, I bet ye decided to keep it secret by hiding it in a fiendishly clever place, somewhere no one would think of looking..... Munster

oscarBravo

Let's try to keep it somewhat on-topic, shall we?

jimmmy

Deedsie wrote: »

Is there something sinister in the way the electorate has changed?

I do not think "sinister" is the word to use....although some of the hundreds of thousands affected may use that word.

Deedsie

jimmmy wrote: »

I do not think "sinister" is the word to use....although some of the hundreds of thousands affected may use that word.

Could you please elaborate on this? I am genuinely interested in what has changed between 1918 and 2008. Did the Troubles remove large swathes of unionists to Antrim or Down or to GB?

Has the pro SF/SDLP poulation just passed out the unionist in these constituencies?

You mentioned the people of Northern Ireland feeling they were under siege? Is that from the PIRA or from who?

Would the Nationalist communites not have been equally under siege at partition? Gerrymandering for example?

T runner

jimmmy wrote: »

I do not think "sinister" is the word to use....although some of the hundreds of thousands affected may use that word.

Unionists as a rule refuse to be governed by Catholics whether it is by main government or local. When a towns majority (and political control) changes from catholic to protestant the protestants tend to locate to a more protestant area. This tends to be in a north easterly direction. This has even happenned in QUB which is majority catholic I believe. Many protestants then sent heir children to Britain for education.

This trend may be stopping as many protestants notice no problems with the nationalist control in these areas. They should have issue with the doomsdayers who advised them to move and to completely unnecessary hardship and uprooting. This will also just make more acute the sectarian divisions in the north.

I think nationalist councils have behaved well when they have had control and Unionists should well note this in local as well as national issues.

Deedsie

Thats actaully amazing to me that they would actually move away from nationalist areas. Wont that just eventually polarise the communities completely though?

Antrim and North Down will be almost completely unionist and the rest will eventually be Nationalist?

jimmmy

Deedsie wrote: »

Did the Troubles remove large swathes of unionists to Antrim or Down or to GB?

Someone from the area once said the border has been rolled back a bit, to all intents and purposes. Some people in the areas in which you mentioned specifically ( the border areas of N. I ) may quietly talk of PIRA targetting only sons during the troubles ( with the excuse they were part time security force members or whatever ), the general Republican intimidation ( up to and including the murders of innocent worshippers at Darkley church for example ) and the Catholic intolerance for other peoples religion in mixed marriages did not help.

Svalbard

T runner wrote: »

Unionists as a rule refuse to be governed by Catholics whether it is by main government or local. When a towns majority (and political control) changes from catholic to protestant the protestants tend to locate to a more protestant area. This tends to be in a north easterly direction. This has even happenned in QUB which is majority catholic I believe. Many protestants then sent heir children to Britain for education.

This trend may be stopping as many protestants notice no problems with the nationalist control in these areas. They should have issue with the doomsdayers who advised them to move and to completely unnecessary hardship and uprooting. This will also just make more acute the sectarian divisions in the north.

I think nationalist councils have behaved well when they have had control and Unionists should well note this in local as well as national issues.

So hundreds of years after they arrived here, the planters still refuse to have anything to do with the Gaelic population. It really beggars belief. How arrogant can you get?

junder

T runner wrote: »

Unionists as a rule refuse to be governed by Catholics whether it is by main government or local. When a towns majority (and political control) changes from catholic to protestant the protestants tend to locate to a more protestant area. This tends to be in a north easterly direction. This has even happenned in QUB which is majority catholic I believe. Many protestants then sent heir children to Britain for education.

This trend may be stopping as many protestants notice no problems with the nationalist control in these areas. They should have issue with the doomsdayers who advised them to move and to completely unnecessary hardship and uprooting. This will also just make more acute the sectarian divisions in the north.

I think nationalist councils have behaved well when they have had control and Unionists should well note this in local as well as national issues.

can you prove this or is it just yet another assumption on your part, you got links to sources for instance or did you learn this in your 'pro-british history books'

junder

Exile 1798 wrote: »

junder, I really do enjoy your unique take on Unionist culture. (how can a poltical preference be called a culture anyway?)

The Beatles? Really?

Paul McCartney wrote the song "Give Ireland back to the Irish". John Lennon attended a Troops Out Rally carrying a "Victory to the IRA" poster. He also wrote a song called Sunday Bloody Sunday, which unlike that U2 song of the same name didn't pull any punches.

Well it was Sunday bloody Sunday
When they shot the people there
The cries of thirteen martyrs
Filled the Free Derry air
Is there any one amongst you
Dare to blame it on the kids?
Not a soldier boy was bleeding
When they nailed the coffin lids!

Sunday bloody Sunday
Bloody Sunday's the day!

You claim to be majority
Well you know that it's a lie
You're really a minority
On this sweet emerald isle
When Stormont bans our marches
They've got a lot to learn
Internment is no answer
It's those mothers' turn to burn!

Sunday bloody Sunday
Bloody Sunday's the day!

You anglo pigs and scotties
Sent to colonize the North
You wave your bloody Union Jack
And you know what it's worth!
How dare you hold to ransom
A people proud and free
Keep Ireland for the Irish
Put the English back to sea!

Sunday bloody Sunday
Bloody Sunday's the day!

Well, it's always bloody Sunday
In the concentration camps
Keep Falls Road free forever
From the bloody English hands
Repatriate to Britain
All of you who call it home
Leave Ireland to the Irish
Not for London or for Rome!

Sunday bloody Sunday
Bloody Sunday's the day!

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Sunday-Bloody-Sunday-lyrics-John-Lennon/C79BAF6AEF2A9E5C48256BCA0007A62A

Aside from some misguided songs the Beatles were one of the biggest BRITISH bands of all time, their influence can still be felt in contemporary culture today and thier influence on British culture is immeasurable and guess what lots of prods living in northern Ireland grew up listening to them. Your average protestant is no different then most other people in the western world in that the majority of his/her culture is your normal popular, contemporary culture (we do not hibernate until July only to wake up to beat our drums). Notice i said it was part of unionist culture not exclusive to unionist culture, since many nationalist/republicans grew up listening to the beatles as well. Moreover the Beatles were just a band i picked at random since the same can be said about many British bands within popular culture. Unlike some of you i do not belief there is such a thing as cultural purity, within any culture there will always be numerous subcultures and even within those subcultures there will be other subcultures which in essence is why its in possible to define a culture, even on a individual basis,i doubt we could list every sub-culture that we are in ourselves.
I know it may be difficult for some of you to overcome your prejudices in order to actually be able to see protestants/unionists of northern Ireland as human and therefore subject to the same influences as the rest of society but i am afraid its true, Organism for is only a small part, not every protestant in northern Ireland is a member.

FYI 5 Orange halls attacked this last wek alone

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7960301.stm


Series of attacks on Orange halls

There has been a series of attacks on Orange halls over the last week, the police have said.

Three near Lisburn, County Antrim, were covered with sectarian graffiti on Saturday and another was attacked the previous weekend.

Meanwhile, a 24-year-old man has been arrested after an attack on Ballykelly Orange Hall in County Londonderry.

The Grand Secretary of the Orange Order, Drew Nelson, said the attacks were a "worrying development".

"I think we're a bit surprised that five halls have now been attacked in the last five days," he said.

"I think it does raise some concerns, we're concerned that these attacks are continuing on Orange halls and seem to have picked up again after a number of months where there have been relatively few attacks."

The premises in the Main Street area of Ballykelly was broken into just before 0550 GMT on Sunday and a small blaze was started.

The fire was put out causing only scorch damage to the property.

East Londonderry MP Gregory Campbell said: "It is difficult to know what the rationale for this attack was. People will be appalled."

jank

junder wrote: »

can you prove this or is it just yet another assumption on your part, you got links to sources for instance or did you learn this in your 'pro-british history books'

Maybe you should ask your friend Jimmy for the same links and references.

Some people in the areas in which you mentioned specifically ( the border areas of N. I ) may quietly talk of PIRA targetting only sons during the troubles ( with the excuse they were part time security force members or whatever ), the general Republican intimidation ( up to and including the murders of innocent worshippers at Darkley church for example ) and the Catholic intolerance for other peoples religion in mixed marriages did not help.

K-9

Great thread, shows why there will be no United Ireland in the next 20/30 years, if ever!

Exile 1798

junder wrote: »

Aside from some misguided songs the Beatles were one of the biggest BRITISH bands of all time, their influence can still be felt in contemporary culture today and thier influence on British culture is immeasurable and guess what lots of prods living in northern Ireland grew up listening to them. Your average protestant is no different then most other people in the western world in that the majority of his/her culture is your normal popular, contemporary culture (we do not hibernate until July only to wake up to beat our drums). Notice i said it was part of unionist culture not exclusive to unionist culture, since many nationalist/republicans grew up listening to the beatles as well.

Jesus Christ just give it up mate.

Everyone listened to the Irish Republican supporting Beatles. As someone pointed out that's pop culture.

And hey if you like them so much I'd also highly recommend the Wolfe Tones, The Dubliners and The Irish Brigade.

Exile 1798

Unionist icon John Lennnon.

Dannyboy83

K-9 wrote: »

Great thread, shows why there will be no United Ireland in the next 20/30 years, if ever!

I disagree.
Junder is a nice fella and I like him, but remember he has been through the mill.
He is representative of the old & contracting generation of people in Ulster. He is far from representative of modern, expanding generation in NI.
I spoke to a lad my age today from a unionist area who cannot get a job in Ulster and said he was thinking about coming to the Republic because he was offered a job here. He said he doesn't give a political fcuk along as he can get a job.
The fact that this is a politics forum means that you're more likely to encounter politically conscious people anyway;).


The older generations are dying off, as is inevitable and unionisim is contracting through prosperity (less kids), old age and apathy.

People growing up through peace and affluence will have no reason to hate and will gradually be assimilated.
It will definitely happen within the 75 years.
If some commentators are saying that there is a good chance the UK will dissolve within the next 50 years, what chance does Northern Ireland have to outlast our lifetimes?

When the economy is up and running and this country is back on its feet again, you will hear people start to sing a different tune.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/britain-will-be-only-nation-still-in-recession-next-year-1647356.html

Scotland is only staying in the Union to pay for RBS, they will be gone after that.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1164440/The-Bank-England-No-10-war-We-afford-Budget-spending-spree-Governor-tells-Brown.html

They didn't want the Iraq war and they don't want a nuclear bomb set off in Glasgow or Edinburgh:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7960466.stm


I'm 26 next week and I would be ready to bet €10,000 that:

We will see an independant Scotland before I'm 40. (2023)
We will see the dissolution of the UK before I'm 50. (2033)
We will see a United Ireland before I'm 56. (2039) i.e n 10,680 days


Most of the people old enough to remember the troubles properly must be 25.
Most of the hardliners are 50+.
In 30 years, they will be 80+ or deceased.

Every day of peace in Ulster brings unity one step closer.

Deedsie

K-9 wrote: »

Great thread, shows why there will be no United Ireland in the next 20/30 years, if ever!

What part in particular shows that? The gradual increasing nationalist majority in all the border constituencies?

A real knife in the heart of Nationalism that is.

junder

Exile 1798 wrote: »

Unionist icon John Lennnon.

unfortuntly long term drug usage (espically pychoactive drugs like LSD) can lead to dellusions and a loss of grip on reality

Deedsie

junder wrote: »

unfortuntly long term drug usage (espically pychoactive drugs like LSD) can lead to dellusions and a loss of grip on reality

Freakin Unionist culture and there drug usage.

jimmmy

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I spoke to a lad my age today from a unionist area who cannot get a job in Ulster and said he was thinking about coming to the Republic because he was offered a job here.

Do you really think anyone offered him a job in todays Irish Republic - where unemployment is rising at the fastest rate ever and virtually no business is being done ( ask any shopper who lives within driving distance of N. Ireland ) ? Maybe he and John Lennon had something in common , leading to dellusions and a loss of grip on reality ? lol lol

The international financial community perceive Ireland as by far the riskiest country in Europe as regards the possibility of defaulting on our borrowings ( 25 billion this year extra borrowing , just to pay day to day expenses ).
No wonder most people in N. Ireland ( inc most Catholics I know there ) want to stay within the UK.

Deedsie

What you want and what you do can be very different things.

Id imagine most people would like the idea of a united Ireland but inthe current climate it would be crazy to pursue it.