will we ever see a 32 county republic

T runner

junder wrote: »

what ever the reasons for partition, fact is it created is created a new country and a new identy, our paths divided, the Irish identy that unionists used to have has been replaced by a northern irish identy that is distinct and sepperate from the culture you have in the RoI, aside from living on the same island we have very little in common apart the superficial. We the unionist population of northern ireland regard the RoI as forgein country period, we don't care about 'economic praticalitys' or whatever other arguments you try to use you are forgieners to us, you might as well ask us to join france or outer-monglia. You in the RoI need to get your heads round the fact that we are not confused irish men, or that you just need to get rid of the British government and we will fall into line. Unless you get your head round this fact then it will be impossiable to move on.

Stop being ridiculous! Do you have anything in common with your catholic neighbours?(were quite like them)
Are the catholic community in Northern Ireland also foreigners to you?
Because they also regard themselves as Irish.
(French or Outer Mongolians arent Irish BTW, neither are Scots, Welsh or English).

Also 40% of people at least in NI regard themselves as completely Irish. Thats quite a lot in common is it not?
I think your confusing the Unionist people with the people of NI. These agreements were supposed to give people in the North equal status but some unionists still dont see it that way obviously.

junder

T runner wrote: »

Thats complete self righteous rubbish.

In the troubles there were two wars. The sectarian war and the war between the IRA and the security forces.

The ROI did as much as anyone to stop it after the IRA had hijacked the peaceful Civil rights movement. This peaceful movement came after almost 50 years of sectarian supression by the stormont authorities on the catholic people. If you remember this peaceful movement was brutally put down by the pro-union authority and many catholic families found themselves under attack by pogrom.

The troubles could have been avoided after 1975 if Sinn Fein and the DUP had agreed to Sunningdale which is the agreement on the table now, more or less.

In the sectarian war which was largely perpetrated by Loyalists against the catholic community, random catholics were tortured and murdered for no other reason than their religion. This de-humanising attitude towards catholics can only be explained by severe bigotry ingrained at an early age.

I think everyone can take some blame for the wars but unionists must also take blame for the twisted sectarian society that existed by the late sixties by their hand.

If you are blaming the ROI for these wars you are indeed in the dark or may have been misinformed by your impartial advisors at home.

As we say in northern ireland 'wind your neck in' i was making a light hearted comment hence the smilly face, so you stop throwing your toys out of the pram. However you can spare me the we are innocent bull****, after did'nt you have a tiosach involved in gunrunning and yer right the IRA were never sectarian were they :rolleyes:

junder

T runner wrote: »

Stop being ridiculous! Do you have anything in common with your catholic neighbours?(were quite like them)
Are the catholic community in Northern Ireland also foreigners to you?
Because they also regard themselves as Irish.
(French or Outer Mongolians arent Irish BTW, neither are Scots, Welsh or English).

Yes i have hell of alot in common with northern irish catholics in fact we have more in common with each other then we do with you in the RoI or the rest of the UK

LordSutch

C'mon now T runner, anybody who's been up North will tell you that its a different country, its certainly got a very different vibe & a different cultural feel to it. I was up there recently and I might as well have been in Scotland or parts of Northern England, and I mean this sincerely, for many cultural reasons the North is very different to the Republic!

junder

T runner wrote: »

(French or Outer Mongolians arent Irish BTW, neither are Scots, Welsh or English).

.

and nither are we

T runner

junder wrote: »

As we say in northern ireland 'wind your neck in' i was making a light hearted comment hence the smilly face, so you stop throwing your toys out of the pram. However you can spare me the we are innocent bull****, after did'nt you have a tiosach involved in gunrunning and yer right the IRA were never sectarian were they :rolleyes:

You see, I never said we were innocent I said everyone had some blame. You were the one claiming that the ROI government was solely to blame.

Just to correct you the word is spelled "taoiseach".
Also that phrase is probably used in Donegal aswell. Just a coincidence I guess after all Northern Ireland is more like Mongolia or France than Ireland.

Dannyboy83

junder wrote: »

and nither are we

Do you know the gentic make up of "the Pale" Dublin/Kildare/Wexford?:rolleyes:

Most of us are probably more English than you:D
You're bloody Scottish, go drink some feckin whiskey

Dannyboy83

junder,

do you think its an ethnic/racial divide?
or a political divide?

I didn't know you felt so strongly to be honest, I've never heard any unionist say those things before.
Perhaps all unionists think like this, but just don't want to say it?


(BTW, if its a political thing, we are merging with Scotland after we merge with the North, so nothing to worry about:D)

T runner

junder wrote: »

Yes i have hell of alot in common with northern irish catholics in fact we have more in common with each other then we do with you in the RoI or the rest of the UK

But they are the same as us! (Just ask them if you don't believe me)

Or do you they feel that people in the ROI are foreign like Outer Mongolians or French?

junder

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Do you know the gentic make up of "the Pale" Dublin/Kildare/Wexford?:rolleyes:

Most of us are probably more English than you:D
You're bloody Scottish, go drink some feckin whiskey

Think i will stick to 'arthur guninness's proudest protestant porter' thanks (and yes that really is what it used to be called), mind you i am suprized you republicans drink guiness after all, old arthur was a unionist so to speak (he was against home rule) and its why your republican predcessors back in the 1800's had a saying 'the black hand of guiness around the heart of ireland'

T runner

junder wrote: »

and nither are we

We being a section of the protestant community of NI not the people of NI.

Dannyboy83

junder wrote: »

Think i will stick to 'arthur guninness's proudest protestant porter' thanks (and yes that really is what it used to be called), mind you i am suprized you republicans drink guiness after all, old arthur was a unionist so to speak (he was against home rule) and its why your republican predcessors back in the 1800's had a saying 'the black hand of guiness around the heart of ireland'

I don't drink at all to be honest, but don't say anything about it to the Americans, they will take their fancy jobs if we don't live up to the stereotype;):D

junder

T runner wrote: »

But they are the same as us! (Just ask them if you don't believe me)

Or do you they feel that people in the ROI are foreign like Outer Mongolians or French?

they may what to be part of youse but even they see themslves as different, both our cultures have been shaped by the conflict which is why we have so much in common with each other, you did'nt have the conflict and as such it is impossiable for you to relate either of us

junder

T runner wrote: »

We being a section of the protestant community of NI not the people of NI.

who else

Dannyboy83

junder wrote: »

they may what to be part of youse but even they see themslves as different, both our cultures have been shaped by the conflict which is why we have so much in common with each other, you did'nt have the conflict and as such it is impossiable for you to relate either of us

What are you talking about no conflict!!!!!!

What about all the feckin Romanians and the Nigerians!!

You need to take a stroll down to Cork boyine, Jaysus khrisht

T runner

junder wrote: »

Think i will stick to 'arthur guninness's proudest protestant porter' thanks (and yes that really is what it used to be called), mind you i am suprized you republicans drink guiness after all, old arthur was a unionist so to speak (he was against home rule) and its why your republican predcessors back in the 1800's had a saying 'the black hand of guiness around the heart of ireland'

Just to clarify, are you calling all peolple in the ROI republican or just that poster?
You should know people in the ROI dont care about religion and are not bitter.
Do you think people drink guinness because they are unaware of its origins?
A large majority of guinness drinkers in Ireland are well aware of Guinnesses protestant origins but simply dont care.
We have a lot in common with people from the North but for most of our citizens petty sectarian prejudices isnt one of them.

junder

T runner wrote: »

Just to clarify, are you calling all peolple in the ROI republican or just that poster?
You should know people in the ROI dont care about religion and are not bitter.
Do you think people drink guinness because they are unaware of its origins?
A large majority of guinness drinkers in Ireland are well aware of Guinnesses protestant origins but simply dont care.
We have a lot in common with people from the North but for most of our citizens petty sectarian prejudices isnt one of them.

jesus you really are uptight, again it was lighthearted comment primerly aimed at dannyboy

Dannyboy83

T runner wrote: »

Just to clarify, are you calling all peolple in the ROI republican or just that poster?
You should know people in the ROI dont care about religion and are not bitter.
Do you think people drink guinness because they are unaware of its origins?
A large majority of guinness drinkers in Ireland are well aware of Guinnesses protestant origins but simply dont care.
We have a lot in common with people from the North but for most of our citizens petty sectarian prejudices isnt one of them.

The town I live in is mostly protestant.
We have protestants all over Cork.
There is a methodist church and a protestant cathedral in the town where I'm writing this from.

I'm grandmother on my paternal side was descended from the English plantations of Munster.

Some of the most vehemently nationalistic people i know are protestants.
I don't think the religion really comes into it at all really.


As for me being a republican, not likely really.
I'd like to see the North join us one day, but haven't given a ****e for the last 10 years and won't give a ****e for the next 30years.

I prefer to live in reality and concentrate on my job and career.
My girlfriend is Russian, so I learn Russian and I'm way more focused on EE-Hiberno relations than IRL/NI

I know junder is not representative of unionists either, he is completely different from the young people i know in Belfast.

But he has an interesting opinion none the less, and just because he is different, doesn't mean its any less relevant

T runner

junder wrote: »

who else

Well the people of NI. This thread is about NI joining republic.

Your best bet to keep partition is to try and create a NI identity amonst all people of NI. This us and them attitude, if it persists will, show in years to come that the only reason for it must be sectarian and that will not stack up as a reason to stop a united ireland anymore.

Dannyboy83

junder wrote: »

jesus you really are uptight, again it was lighthearted comment primerly aimed at dannyboy

Don't worry mate, I saw the lighthearted side, I enjoyed the banter:D

junder

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Don't worry mate, I saw the lighthearted side, I enjoyed the banter:D

I thought it was us unionists who were supposed to not have a sence of humour

T runner

junder wrote: »

they may what to be part of youse but even they see themslves as different, both our cultures have been shaped by the conflict which is why we have so much in common with each other, you did'nt have the conflict and as such it is impossiable for you to relate either of us

Catholics in the North do not see themselves as different to people in the south.
They seee themselves as Irish and share the same culture as us.

Your comments about southerners being as foriegn as outer mongolians and French is ludicrous but Im sure youve have had plenty of practice trying to antagonize catholics in the north with these particular lies.

Dannyboy83

T runner wrote: »

Catholics in the North do not see themselves as different to people in the south.
They seee themselves as Irish and share the same culture as us.

Your comments about southerners being as foriegn as outer mongolians and French is ludicrous but Im sure youve have had plenty of practice trying to antagonize catholics in the north with these particular lies.

I think he was just trying to make the point that its a very different culture mate.
I could say the same about Cork City and Dublin to be honest.
Or Galway and Dublin, Limerick and Dublin.
To be honest, I feel like a foreigner when I go to Dublin at all.
Dublin is totally different to the rest of the Republic.

He also said they're way different to any city in the UK.
There has been conflict in the North unlike anywhere else in Western Europe I guess.
Its a fair comment.

There is a well publicised divide between North and South Cork.
People tend to think and act very differently a lot of the time.

I was living in North Cork last year and i felt like I had moved to a different country.


Think of Liverpool and Manchester, LOL

Camelot wrote: »

C'mon now T runner, anybody who's been up North will tell you that its a different country, its certainly got a very different vibe & a different cultural feel to it. I was up there recently and I might as well have been in Scotland or parts of Northern England, and I mean this sincerely, for many cultural reasons the North is very different to the Republic!

Something like what Camelot was saying here.


Anyway, ye are bound to disagree because you want a 32C Ireland and he doesn't.
The best anyone can do is to compromise.

K-9

Gruffalo wrote: »

I would be happy to see a link if you have one, as that comparison would be interesting.

Correction? I think we are gone a little past that now. Definitely the last 5/6 years have been unrealistic.

All in all, while this recession will be painful, in many ways it could be one of the best things to happen the state (if we learn our lessons) as it will force us to reexamine how we vote, our taxation policies, public sector etc. etc.

Might try and get some stats on it. I was being general there when I really was referring to Public Sector pay rises of the last 10 years.

junder wrote: »

the point is that IS already paid for, we have already have completely free health care, you don't, which lends the question if you can afford it now why don't you have free health care

We probably could have afforded it. It would have taken PRSI rates similar to your NIC rates but nobody wanted to pay those rates!

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

At first we would have to shoulder the debts ourselves using hand outs from the EU and the US:pac:.
The UK would have to maintain some type of subvention, its called 'war reparations'
Germany had to pay, so why shouldn't the UK?

But we would educate ye in our free universities.;)
Once ye had acquired a good education for free, we would use our Irish brogue, shamrocks and Guinness to attract investors from the States.:p

They would set up vast multinationals in the North and we would twist the EU's arm into providing funds for the reconstruction of the North.

We would re-invigorate places like H&W, building massive ships to export our guinness and shamrocks and high tech pharmaceuticals and computers.
Tourisim would help a lot too.

Then ye would be like us:
- working long hours, making money with no time to spend it
- being taxed through the bollix
- too busy working to worry about an orange parade or a riverdance

Interestingly, Income taxes and PRSI are lower in the South on comparable average wages.

T runner wrote: »

Catholics in the North do not see themselves as different to people in the south.
They seee themselves as Irish and share the same culture as us.

Your comments about southerners being as foriegn as outer mongolians and French is ludicrous but Im sure youve have had plenty of practice trying to antagonize catholics in the north with these particular lies.

LOL. Must remember that next time somebody mentions Free Staters!

andrewh5

K-9 wrote: »

We probably could have afforded it. It would have taken PRSI rates similar to your NIC rates but nobody wanted to pay those rates!!

NI rates are only 9% and many get credits on it anyway!!

I

K-9 wrote: »

nterestingly, Income taxes and PRSI are lower in the South on comparable average wages.

And look at the crap services we get! I would have the NHS over the ROI system anyday!

junder

T runner wrote: »

Catholics in the North do not see themselves as different to people in the south.
They seee themselves as Irish and share the same culture as us.

Your comments about southerners being as foriegn as outer mongolians and French is ludicrous but Im sure youve have had plenty of practice trying to antagonize catholics in the north with these particular lies.

franlkly you need to take your foot out of your backside, i do not antagonize my catholic neighbours, i am not sectarian and any allusion to being sectarain i regard as a personel insult. .
Like it or not you are a forgeiner to me, you live in a forgien country and its is a forgin country that i want no part of. Unlike you i do actully live in Northern Ireland, it is my reality not yours, and having worked in cross community youth work and poltics for many years i would say i have a better insight to what goes on in northern ireland then you.
When it comes to northern irish republicans many of them actully look upon you in the free state with contempt they see you as sell outs, they look down on you because while they were (in thier eyes) fighting the brits you lived in your nice cosy little republic, why do you think the PIRA split from the OIRA, because they viewed the southern command as out of touch with northern ireland. To me the term 'free state' is nothing but a nickname for the RoI in republican west belfast its still said as a insult, yes they do seem themselves as irish, they just see themselves as more irish then you because in thier eyes thet carried on fighting

T runner

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I think he was just trying to make the point that its a very different culture mate.
I could say the same about Cork City and Dublin to be honest.
Or Galway and Dublin, Limerick and Dublin.
To be honest, I feel like a foreigner when I go to Dublin at all.
Dublin is totally different to the rest of the Republic.

He also said they're way different to any city in the UK.
There has been conflict in the North unlike anywhere else in Western Europe I guess.
Its a fair comment.

He said Unionists saw southerners as just as foreign as French or Outer Mongolians. He was quite clear there is no need for you to misrepresent him.

I want a 32C Ireland and he doesn't.

I implied that I dont consider catholics up north to be foreign (or protestants for that matter).
I said it because I believe it to be true, not because I want a 32C Ireland.
If there are genuine reasons for a permanent border in this country I will listen. But if the reasons stem from sectarianism I will not listen.

The best anyone can do is to compromise.

There is a compromise in place at the moment which will last a generation at least. It will last less if the underlying sectarian cause of the disagreement is not addressed.

K-9 wrote: »

LOL. Must remember that next time somebody mentions Free Staters!

Better off remembering it when someone mentions "Irish".

T runner

junder wrote: »

franlkly you need to take your foot out of your backside, i do not antagonize my catholic neighbours, i am not sectarian and any allusion to being sectarain i regard as a personel insult. .
Like it or not you are a forgeiner to me, you live in a forgien country and its is a forgin country that i want no part of. Unlike you i do actully live in Northern Ireland, it is my reality not yours, and having worked in cross community youth work and poltics for many years i would say i have a better insight to what goes on in northern ireland then you.
When it comes to northern irish republicans many of them actully look upon you in the free state with contempt they see you as sell outs, they look down on you because while they were (in thier eyes) fighting the brits you lived in your nice cosy little republic, why do you think the PIRA split from the OIRA, because they viewed the southern command as out of touch with northern ireland. To me the term 'free state' is nothing but a nickname for the RoI in republican west belfast its still said as a insult, yes they do seem themselves as irish, they just see themselves as more irish then you because in thier eyes thet carried on fighting

Know many catholics in west Belfast do you?

So are you implying that the people in the republic of Ireland should have joined the PIRA to fight the Brits in NI? That would be the right thing to do?

Strange in a previous post you blamed the ROI for the War in NI. Seemed to have changed your tune. You are now blaming the ROI for not being involved enough in the fighting in NI.

Catholics dont see themselves as more or less Irish than us. They are Irish: end of story, just like us.


So as an Irish person If I am a foreigner to you your Irish catholic neighbours are also foreigners. You cant have it both ways.

What are ye going to do in 50 years when you are a minority and ye still have this ludicrous ignorant attitute to the rest of your neighbours in Ireland?

How will you dress it up as anything other than sectarianism then?

K-9

andrewh5 wrote: »

NI rates are only 9% and many get credits on it anyway!!

I
And look at the crap services we get! I would have the NHS over the ROI system anyday!

Exactly, we were relying on unsustainable property bubble taxes to pay for our Health Service etc., now we can't even afford the one we have!

Anyway, minor point, I think NIC is 10% in the North and kicks in around £130/140 a week, PRSI kicks in here at about €350 at 4%, the full 6% at about €500.

junder

T runner wrote: »

Know many catholics in west Belfast do you?

So are you implying that the people in the republic of Ireland should have joined the PIRA to fight the Brits in NI? That would be the right thing to do?

Strange in a previous post you blamed the ROI for the War in NI. Seemed to have changed your tune. You are now blaming the ROI for not being involved enough in the fighting in NI.

Catholics dont see themselves as more or less Irish than us. They are Irish: end of story, just like us.


So as an Irish person If I am a foreigner to you your Irish catholic neighbours are also foreigners. You cant have it both ways.

What are ye going to do in 50 years when you are a minority and ye still have this ludicrous ignorant attitute to the rest of your neighbours in Ireland?

How will you dress it up as anything other than sectarianism then?

Are you trying to wind me up on purpose or are you really this thick, i already pointed out that the comment about the RoI being responable for the conflict in NI was a light hearted comment made in responce to dannyboy hence the smily face.
How many from the catholic community do i know from west belfast, a hell of alot more then you sonny jim thats for sure. Moreover i did not blamedthe RoI for not being invloved in the conflict, why would, i am a unionist in case you missed that. I merely pointed how some west belfast republicans look upon the RoI.
As for how i will feel in 50 years i will still regard the south as forgein country,