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will we ever see a 32 county republic
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Erm, just to let those know. I'm born n' bred in Belfast and I can definitely confirm that myself and people in my community are as irish as someone from Derry, Cork, Dublin or anyone else in Ireland.0
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Can'tseeme wrote: »Erm, just to let those know. I'm born n' bred in Belfast and I can definitely confirm that myself and people in my community are as irish as someone from Derry, Cork, Dublin or anyone else in Ireland.
So as a nationalist from Belfast, would you agree with my observations in Post# 215 ?0 -
How many from the catholic community do i know from west belfast, a hell of alot more then you sonny jim thats for sure.
Thats probably not trueAs for how i will feel in 50 years i will still regard the south as forgein country,
If your people all still feel that way in 50 years you will be marginalised because the only reason remaining for your attitude to the rest of the Irish people is sectarianism.
Also, If you regard southerners as foreign you must also regard northern catholics as foreign as both Northern and Southern catholics admit that they are Irish.
Your position appears illogical.
Lets try and find any underlying logic:
In 1921 the problem was Rome rule. All sides claimed they were reluctant to partition Ireland. The consensus was that once problems could be resolved a united Ireland could be attained.
The Unionist delegation did not state that a United Ireland would then be impossible because the two areas would technically be of different nationalities.
We dont need catholics so push them out. "A protestant state for a protestant people."
OOPs, we didnt succeed in running them out now we do need catholics.
We cant join up sure arent we foregners. Ye will always be foreigners to us? (Not all catholics just the ones in the south.)
Ridiculous.
Lets hypothesise. All these reasons that unionists put up against Unification arise from the one source. Protestants are told from an early age that Catholics and southerners, are inferior/underclass/bad etc. and under no circumstances are we to be ruled in a united Ireland. (If that isnt true then correct me.)
They cant come out and say "we dont want to be ruled by a bunch of Taigs" so other reasons are rationalised. i.e Were foreigners now.0 -
C'mon now T runner, anybody who's been up North will tell you that its a different country, its certainly got a very different vibe & a different cultural feel to it. I was up there recently and I might as well have been in Scotland or parts of Northern England, and I mean this sincerely, for many cultural reasons the North is very different to the Republic!
I would describe NI as similar to the ROI but through a different prism. The roads are similar to those in Scotland etc naturally enough, but cultural, geographical, accent etc all irish.0 -
It is interesting that DeValera stood up in the Dail in 1931 and said that if he had two applicants for a job, one Protestant and one Catholic, and only one job, he would always give the job to the Catholic. It was not long afterwards that it was said in Stormont that N. I. was "A protestant state for a protestant people."We dont need catholics so push them out. "A protestant state for a protestant people."Protestants are told from an early age that Catholics and southerners, are inferior/underclass/bad etc. and under no circumstances are we to be ruled in a united Ireland. (If that isnt true then correct me.)
lol Who told you that ? Was it at an early age ? Most I met do not think Catholics and southerners, are inferior/underclass/bad etc And historically if any met a Catholic and wanted to marry them, what do you think the R.C. priest said / would say ? Who would be the one then who would say the other persons religion was inferior, underclass / bad etc ( or certainly not good enough for any children ) and they would have to change ?0 -
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C'mon now T runner, anybody who's been up North will tell you that its a different country, its certainly got a very different vibe & a different cultural feel to it. I was up there recently and I might as well have been in Scotland or parts of Northern England, and I mean this sincerely, for many cultural reasons the North is very different to the Republic!
Honestly disagree with that. There isn't a sudden change as soon as you cross the border other than the road signs are different.
Ireland has differences all around the country. Rural communities to inner city communities. Cities are different due to there own history aswell. Derry has more in common with Donegal than Belfast has to the northwest.
I would say the Junder has more in common with those like Dannyboy and T Runner than he maybe cares to admit. The same as we've plenty in common with British people.0 -
I would describe NI as similar to the ROI but through a different prism. The roads are similar to those in Scotland etc naturally enough, but cultural, geographical, accent etc all irish.
The first settlers in Ireland came from Scotland. You can see it on a clear day. There was always very close links between the 2 islands, not unlike between the New Zealand islands, the Hawaiian islands, The Canaries etc.0 -
So as a nationalist from Belfast, would you agree with my observations in Post# 215 ?
I was in Belfast on Friday on the way to Scotland and Monday on the way back.
There were three differences going over the Border. Currency, mobile Network changes and Miles per hour signs instead of Kilometres.
I was chatting to people from the North, No idea what back ground they had, but all were in good form looking forward to watching Ireland play Scotland in Edinburgh.
The money i got out of the bank in Belfast was no good in Scotland. Different Currency between the two.
I didnt notice any flags up there, that you would always see before. Fair enough i was mainly on the M1.
But i got on just fine with all the people i met. I dont understand why, but seem people posting here are making out this is a bad thing.0 -
It is interesting that DeValera stood up in the Dail in 1931 and said that if he had two applicants for a job, one Protestant and one Catholic, and only one job, he would always give the job to the Catholic. It was not long afterwards that it was said in Stormont that N. I. was "A protestant state for a protestant people."
Maybe true, but he didn't impose a sectarian policy in the southern state.lol Who told you that ? Was it at an early age ? Most I met do not think Catholics and southerners, are inferior/underclass/bad etc
Do you think they would tell you that? What are they told as reasoning for the anomaly of NI when they are growing up?
He would have said no, probably and that is unfair. If a catholic applied for a job, house etc with any of the state authorities what would be the answer.And historically if any met a Catholic and wanted to marry them, what do you think the R.C. priest said / would say ?
Did many Catholics or RC priests commit pogroms in NI, based on religion?
The catholic marriage rule (gone now) is not systematic sectarianism.
I dont know where your trying to go with this. The first settlers in Ireland technically came from mainland Europe. (Ireland is an Island far longer than Britain: Less mammals, deeper seas etc).The first settlers in Ireland came from Scotland. You can see it on a clear day. There was always very close links between the 2 islands, not unlike between the New Zealand islands, the Hawaiian islands, The Canaries etc.
Yes there has always been movement of peoples into Ireland from Europe and later Britain. But there has always been movement of peoples to every country. Thats how peoples spread.0 -
I was in Belfast on Friday on the way to Scotland and Monday on the way back. There were three differences going over the Border. Currency, mobile Network changes and Miles per hour signs instead of Kilometres.
I didnt notice any flags up there, that you would always see before. Fair enough i was mainly on the M1.
Maybe I'm mistaken? I was expecting a change when we went up North, and we did get the impression that there was a different 'Air' about the place, we were only in Enniskillen for two nights (if that makes any difference)? maybe if we'd stayed a bit longer we would have found thats its just the same as the South?0 -
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It is interesting that DeValera stood up in the Dail in 1931 and said that if he had two applicants for a job, one Protestant and one Catholic, and only one job, he would always give the job to the Catholic. It was not long afterwards that it was said in Stormont that N. I. was "A protestant state for a protestant people."
Would this be the same De Velera that handpicked the Protestant Douglas Hyde as our first president and also had the Protestant Erskine Childers as a cabinet minister.
You seem to want to charge Dev, whom I hate, with racism but his actions clearly disprove it.0 -
Protestants are told from an early age that Catholics and southerners, are inferior/underclass/bad etc. and under no circumstances are we to be ruled in a united Ireland. (If that isnt true then correct me.)
They cant come out and say "we dont want to be ruled by a bunch of Taigs" so other reasons are rationalised. i.e Were foreigners now.
T runner I have agreed with much of what you have said but this is rubbish. I am sure there are some cases where this has happened, but there are cases where Catholics are told that Protestants are inferior.
I have had many Protestant friends from the North and they are the kindest, fairest people I have met.0 -
Maybe I'm mistaken? I was expecting a change when we went up North, and we did get the impression that there was a different 'Air' about the place, we were only in Enniskillen for two nights (if that makes any difference)? maybe if we'd stayed a bit longer we would have found thats its just the same as the South?
I really dont know Camelot, I have a mate from Dungannon who hates Rugby with a passion. Works in the south loves Liverpool, shouts for Ireland in Soccer. Nationalist fellow. The only City in the North i have been out in was Derry, and that could well have been any city in Ireland.
No real difference in my opinion. In saying that the Scots were very similar to us also.
Id hope for unity someday, but i have accepted the 32 county socialist Republic is never going to happen.
If we could keep the Tricolour as the flag, And a combination anthem of Amhran Na Bhfiann / The Derry Air. I suppose rejoining the commonwealth could be considered.0 -
Stop picking fights. junder, stop rising to the bait.Your comments about southerners being as foriegn as outer mongolians and French is ludicrous but Im sure youve have had plenty of practice trying to antagonize catholics in the north with these particular lies.
Everyone: if you can't discuss the topic civilly, don't discuss the topic. Don't mistake this for a polite suggestion.0 -
oscarBravo wrote: »Stop picking fights. junder, stop rising to the bait.
Everyone: if you can't discuss the topic civilly, don't discuss the topic. Don't mistake this for a polite suggestion.
I have to disagree with you here. If you look back through the thread, Junder is trying his hardest to avoid answering questions but having a go at anyone who does.0 -
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Maybe true, but he ( DeValera ) didn't impose a sectarian policy in the southern state..
All I said was he stood up in the Dail, during the controvery about a Protestant actually getting a job as a librarian and therefore corrupting good Catholic morals, DeValera spoke that " if he had two applicants for a job, one Protestant and one Catholic, and only one job, he would always give the job to the Catholic." It was not long afterwards that it was said in Stormont that N. I. was "A protestant state for a protestant people."
I am not saying either was correct : I am just saying what happened.
A million people are not, as you claim, "told from an early age that Catholics and southerners, are inferior/underclass/bad etc"What are they told as reasoning for the anomaly of NI when they are growing up?.Did many Catholics or RC priests commit pogroms in NI, based on religion?
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Who comitted the Claudy bomb ?The catholic marriage rule (gone now) is not systematic sectarianism.
Maybe not, but you were talking about people being told they or their religion was inferior / underclass / not good enough etc ; the Catholic church still says this is the case for children of such a marriage ....so its a bit rich for you to talk about others preaching such attidutes when evidence points to the oppositeThe first settlers in Ireland technically came from mainland Europe.
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Wrong; they came from Scotland / Wales. ; it was far closer0 -
All I said was he stood up in the Dail, during the controvery about a Protestant actually getting a job as a librarian and therefore corrupting good Catholic morals, DeValera spoke that " if he had two applicants for a job, one Protestant and one Catholic, and only one job, he would always give the job to the Catholic." It was not long afterwards that it was said in Stormont that N. I. was "A protestant state for a protestant people."
I am not saying either was correct : I am just saying what happened.
What happened was that sectarianism was institutionalised in Northern Ireland after partition.A million people are not, as you claim, "told from an early age that Catholics and southerners, are inferior/underclass/bad etc"T runner I have agreed with much of what you have said but this is rubbish. I am sure there are some cases where this has happened, but there are cases where Catholics are told that Protestants are inferior.
I have had many Protestant friends from the North and they are the kindest, fairest people I have met.
The historian ATQ Stwart in his book "The Narrow ground" a defence of the protestant position. He claims the character of the communities thus: The catholics see themselves as oppressed, wronged by a foreign power and its local garrison. The protestants see themselves as the naturally superior race.
Im not saying a million people but I am saying it happens to a significant proportion of the population. I havent seen it been denied by anyone who would know on this thread and I dont know of any other way the situation can be opassed on other than catholics are not to be trusted etc.
I did ask this direct question a couple of times of a poster claiming to be working class protestant but he refused to reply.Maybe not, but you were talking about people being told they or their religion was inferior / underclass / not good enough etc ; the Catholic church still says this is the case for children of such a marriage ....so its a bit rich for you to talk about others preaching such attidutes when evidence points to the opposite
No just not their religion. The catholic people and their religion.
Not that it matters but the point I was trying to ger across to you was that Britain was part of mainland europe when the first settlers arrived here. Therefore teh first settlers came from mainland europe.Wrong; they came from Scotland / Wales. ; it was far closeroscarBravo wrote: »Stop picking fights. junder, stop rising to the bait.
Everyone: if you can't discuss the topic civilly, don't discuss the topic. Don't mistake this for a polite suggestion.
To be fair in this instance it was Junder who claimed that Irish people were as foreign as outer Mongolians to Northern Unionists. This is obviously provocative and has been preceded by many other slights including me being accused of being a sectarian and a liar.
To be even handed, maybe you should have asked me not to rise to the bait?0 -
The will of the irish people to have a united nation will never ever go away people who state that the current situation should remain are deluded0
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Found this for another thread,could be an idea.Both catholics and protestants joined together in a united ireland, as the 51st state of america.America has both strong catholic and protestant communities/history.
In 1771 Benjamin Franklin traveled through Ireland, both North and South and was astounded by the level of poverty he saw there. Ireland was under such restrictive the trade regulations and laws, which affected the Irish economy, Franklin feared that America could suffer the same plight if Britain’s exploitation of the colonies continued. After America had won its independence, Franklin was of the opinion that Ireland should likewise separate from Britain and send representatives and senators to the newly formed United States Congress.
http://ulsteramerica.blogspot.com/2006/02/welcome.html0 -
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It was actually after DeValera stood up in the Dail, during the controvery about a Protestant actually getting a job as a librarian and therefore corrupting good Catholic morals, and spoke that " if he had two applicants for a job, one Protestant and one Catholic, and only one job, he would always give the job to the Catholic." It was not long afterwards that it was said in Stormont that N. I. was "A protestant state for a protestant people." The minority declined here dramatically after partition, while in N. Ireland it has increased. What you believe or were indoctrinated to believe may not be as black and white as you think.What happened was that sectarianism was institutionalised in Northern Ireland after partition.
What you wrote was " Protestants are told from an early age that Catholics and southerners, are inferior/underclass/bad etc. and under no circumstances are we to be ruled in a united Ireland. " Anyone who has had experience of both Catholic and Protestant teachers will tell you that it is not the "black" Protestants who have a monopoly on indoctrination. Quite the opposite if anything. More than a few have been told their religion is , to use your words, "inferior/underclass/bad etc" and not the one true religion. If two people from different religions wanted to marry, history shows that the Roman Catholic church was more insistent that the other persons religion was "inferior/underclass/bad etc", and that the offspring of such a marriage were not to be brought up in it etc. I think its a bit rich - and ironic - of you T-runner to point the finger at the other side and state " Protestants are told from an early age that Catholics and southerners, are inferior/underclass/bad etc. and under no circumstances are we to be ruled in a united Ireland. "I dont know of any other way the situation can be opassed on other than catholics are not to be trusted etc.0 -
What happened was that sectarianism was institutionalised in Northern Ireland after partition.
The historian ATQ Stwart in his book "The Narrow ground" a defence of the protestant position. He claims the character of the communities thus: The catholics see themselves as oppressed, wronged by a foreign power and its local garrison. The protestants see themselves as the naturally superior race.
Im not saying a million people but I am saying it happens to a significant proportion of the population. I havent seen it been denied by anyone who would know on this thread and I dont know of any other way the situation can be opassed on other than catholics are not to be trusted etc.
I did ask this direct question a couple of times of a poster claiming to be working class protestant but he refused to reply.
No just not their religion. The catholic people and their religion.
Not that it matters but the point I was trying to ger across to you was that Britain was part of mainland europe when the first settlers arrived here. Therefore teh first settlers came from mainland europe.
To be fair in this instance it was Junder who claimed that Irish people were as foreign as outer Mongolians to Northern Unionists. This is obviously provocative and has been preceded by many other slights including me being accused of being a sectarian and a liar.
To be even handed, maybe you should have asked me not to rise to the bait?
so far you took comments made jest with another poster and quoted them out of context, you have made extremely bigoted generalizations about the entire unionist community claiming we teach our children to hate catholics from birth. So i expressed an opinion (you know those things we are supposed to be allowed in democracies) that i regard the RoI as a foreign country, so what? don't you regard Britain as a foreign country?
moreover while i believe that the RoI is Foreign country at no point did i say i hated the RoI or that i hated Foreigners in generl for that matter, i only said that as a i unionist i see the RoI as a country that i feel no part of, anyway whats wrong with outer Mongolia you got a problem with Mongolians?
As for northern Irish Catholics as i already pointed out and you choose to ignore northern Irish protestants and northern Irish catholics have more in common with each other then they do with either the RoI or the rest of the UK, which means we see each generally as fellow country people even if we disagree what that actual country is.
And to clarify things as a working class protestant myself i can tell you we do not have weekly meetings to discuss why we hate catholics, we do not raise our children to hate catholics.0 -
And to clarify things as a working class protestant myself i can tell you we do not have weekly meetings to discuss why we hate catholics, we do not raise our children to hate catholics.
Contrast the situation to south of the border ....where many children are repeatedly taught about the famine, the penal laws, the "aul enemy", how great the 1916 rebels were , to "burn everything British but their coal ", the black Prod xxxxxxs, etc... Many forget 100,000 Irishmen volunteered to fight with British forces in WW1 + WW2 , and the rebels of 1916 were jeered at + thrown things at by the native Dublin population when they surrendered .
N.B. There was a interesting film on tv last night ( called the Magdalene Laundries I think it was ) ....it showed some of the abuses by the Catholic church here in the 20th century.0 -
joe freethinker wrote: »Exactly! today both communities are represented and on equal terms
catholics are no longer 2nd class
Has a catholic as much chance of getting a job with NE as a protestant so?so far you took comments made jest with another poster and quoted them out of context, you have made extremely bigoted generalizations about the entire unionist community claiming we teach our children to hate catholics from birth. So i expressed an opinion (you know those things we are supposed to be allowed in democracies) that i regard the RoI as a foreign country, so what? don't you regard Britain as a foreign country?
You stated that people in the south are Irish and foreigner and you had absolutely nothing in common with them. You claimed you had lots in common with catholics in the North who were "more" Irish than the Irish in the south.
Your position is illogical. You either have something in common with Irish people or you have not something in common with Irish people.
By the way I do regard Britain as foreign. NI is not in Britain and no amount of sef-delusion on the Unonist part will achieve that feat.moreover while i believe that the RoI is Foreign country at no point did i say i hated the RoI or that i hated Foreigners in generl for that matter, i only said that as a i unionist i see the RoI as a country that i feel no part of, anyway whats wrong with outer Mongolia you got a problem with Mongolians?
If you consider People from the republic of Ireland to be foreigners then you consider catholics in NI to be foreigners. We are all the same. You may not like it but its a fact.
I have nothing against Mongolians. You were the one who introduced it as a poor effort at antagonism. You seem to think that comparing people from the ROI to Mongolians is insulting so obviously you may also believe people from that country also to be somewhat sub-human. Dont try and accuse me of racism again.As for northern Irish Catholics as i already pointed out and you choose to ignore northern Irish protestants and northern Irish catholics have more in common with each other then they do with either the RoI or the rest of the UK, which means we see each generally as fellow country people even if we disagree what that actual country is.
Catholics North and (Catholics and Protestants) South interact on a meaningful level more with each other than with Northern Protestants. We may have a border we dont want seperating us but there are no man-made walls there to keep the peace as separates catholic and protestant areas in the North.
So a catholic sees his country as Ireland and you say you feel they are fellow country people? That means that Ireland is not foreign to you. Your position is becoming increasingly ridiculous.And to clarify things as a working class protestant myself i can tell you we do not have weekly meetings to discuss why we hate catholics, we do not raise our children to hate catholics.
You have already stated in another post that sectarianism is endemic in both communities, so according to yourself you do raise your children to hate catholics. I think myself that catholics are raised more to resent the Brits, than protestants.
Without lying (sorry but you accused me of lying in another thread), Were you told growing up that catholics or southerners were in any way inferior/(dirtier?)/stupider than protestants? Is there many "Taig" jokes in working class protestant areas? What was the reason given that you should not be ruled by Roman catholics while you were growing up?0 -
Would be nice if we could just make all this religious bigotry go away, it is after all '2009'.
What a breath of fresh air it can be to live & work in Britain, where the colour of your Christianity is as relevant as the colour of your socks!0 -
junder,
are protestant & catholic young people in the North religious?
if someone among my friends was religious growing up, everyone would have known about it, it would have been the strangest thing ever.
The first time I went to Poland, i was gobsmacked that people took religion so seriously0 -
Contrast the situation to south of the border ....where many children are repeatedly taught about the famine, the penal laws, the "aul enemy", how great the 1916 rebels were , to "burn everything British but their coal ", the black Prod xxxxxxs, etc... Many forget 100,000 Irishmen volunteered to fight with British forces in WW1 + WW2 , and the rebels of 1916 were jeered at + thrown things at by the native Dublin population when they surrendered .
N.B. There was a interesting film on tv last night ( called the Magdalene Laundries I think it was ) ....it showed some of the abuses by the Catholic church here in the 20th century.
Thats a load of garbage Jimmmy and you know it. I certanly wasnt taught any of that. We were taught history sure, but the history books were written by the victors in the civil war who were relatively pro- British. Is that not the case?
I think the 1916 rising was doomed to failure initially but that sparked something in Ireland which lead to nationalists gaining 80% of seats in Ireland and the ensuing War of Independence.0 -
I wouldnt agree with that. There are sectarian problems in Glasgow and Bradford to name two.Would be nice if we could just make all this religious bigotry go away, it is after all '2009'.
What a breath of fresh air it can be to live & work in Britain, where the colour of your Christianity is as relevant as the colour of your socks!
There are no sectarian issues south of the border in Ireland.0 -
A few things I've noticed with thread over the last few pages.
There's a need for unionism to accept what went on in the north. It was an orange state, catholics were 2nd class citizens, the RUC was a police force for the protestant people. My own family were victims of the state, in regards to inequality. It happened, it's important to accept that and to make sure those type of mistakes won't happen again. Theres' also a responsiblity to look into their communities and see is there more that could be done to bring an end to sectarianism, triumphanism. Things like the 11th night bonfire. Are they really a good thing in this day and age?
Now, that was not an attack on Unionism. Just a way of maybe improving cultural elements within it. Taking away the ugly side of it, try and adjust it with other cultures, etc.
Feile an phobail has been a huge sucess in west belfast. Bringing in people from across the divide and the globe, dealing with conflict resolution, concerts, debates, music, plays, sports events etc. Instead of the republican bonfires that used to be lit.0 -
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Thats a load of garbage Jimmmy and you know it. I certanly wasnt taught any of that. We were taught history sure, but the history books were written by the victors in the civil war who were relatively pro- British. Is that not the case?
I think the 1916 rising was doomed to failure initially but that sparked something in Ireland which lead to nationalists gaining 80% of seats in Ireland and the ensuing War of Independence.
Thats not garbage at all mate.
I was taught the same thing to be honest and we weren't working class.
It was pretty much my father who pulled me aside and said 'listen x,y,z, get a clue, don't believe the propaganda'
That was the early 90s tho, and late 80s
Its fair to say tho, some teachers were less bigoted, others were more bigoted.
As I progressed through the education system, the bigotry was nearly completely eliminated, even among the Irish teachers which is saying something.
After the GFA, it all dissapeared, nobody said a bad word.0
This discussion has been closed.
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