What are Germany's motives?

jmayo

kmick wrote: »

Germany is a very ordered and sensible society and they cant understand why we are so chaotic in everything we do. In terms of corruption we are about the same as Germany (12)/Ireland (14)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#CPI_Ranking_.282002.E2.80.932008.29

We laugh at the Germans because they wont cross the road in a rural area with no traffic if the red man is showing. They are amazed because we cross in spite of the red man even in heavy traffic.

So some civil servant slagged us off. Who cares. I heard a story about a woman in AIB on Stephens Green some years ago who slapped her child. A German woman in the queue said "Excuse me but in Germany we dont slap our children". The woman shot back "Yeah well in Ireland we dont kill our Jews." Lets just say we may be chaotic but we have a much prouder history than they do. Lets just ignore it - things will come around again.

I believe that is an old urban myth joke.
Germany and Scandavia would be considered very law abiding, ah but sure that is boring and we like the craic and the charming chancer. So much so that we elect one as our prime minister.

Yeah who cares if the Germans think we are a bunch of good for nothing chancers who would waste their money.
Remember it is their money and not some mythical EU slush fund that we will want to bail us out :rolleyes:
Yeah lets ignore or chastise anyone that points out our gaping flaws, sure aren't we having a great ould time and they are just a bunch of begruders.
Funny I seem to remember chancer supreme Bertie stating somehting along that line.

As long as we have that attitude we will always be a pimple on the ar** of Europe, of course apart from the odd 10 years when due to other people's money we have something. Of course then we blow it all like a bunch of kids.

I believe you will find our corruption level to be higher than Germany, after all how many disgraced leaders and ministers have they had over the last 20 years ? How many have spent time in jail ?
How much of their planning was dictated by developers in preference to the social good of society ?

Scofflaw wrote: »

Posters are not to accuse other people of trolling in thread. If you think it's trolling, report the post. It's in the charter (which people have read, right?), and it stops "you're a troll, no you're a troll" round robins. Another rule is "if you have complaints about the modding, do it in Feedback/Help Desk".

moderately,
Scofflaw

I didn't bother reading the charter, I follwo the lead of my political leaders who don't bother reading reports or treaties

Communicationb

We are a small island off another island off the coast of Europe..

Lets get something straight here...Nobody gives a **** about Ireland..ireland isnt even a footnote when it comes to international finance and commerce but yet we think we are the centre of the universe and a very important player in the world..our heads are so far up our own asses its untrue...

I always compare Ireland to a toddler..lovely and cute to look at and play with for awhile but when things get serious and adult like..sent off to bed so the big people can talk..

Fratton Fred

Scofflaw wrote: »

You may, of course - I'm famously sensitive. However, I think the fact that there's over 5,000 "irish economy" results for just the Telegraph in the last year does rather suggest that this...

I must confess, that does surprise me. Maybe i should read the telegraph more. The times is a lot easier to read on the tube

Scofflaw wrote: »

I would say that Ireland is currently in the position of a relentless self-publicist whose trousers have fallen down - or perhaps been found to be swimming naked.

That would be a pretty good analogy

Ironbars

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That is just an inferiority complex. The UK is too concerned with the problems it is experiencing to care too much about what is happening in Ireland. the only news reports I have seen of late about Ireland is regarding Anglo Irish, which considering the name is relevant.

Oh yeah, and the one about the Polish man with 22,000 speeding tickets:D

Scofflaw has a point, just look at this recent have I got news for you and how it potrays our glorious leader...............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1J-lkE3oTmo

Nodin

peasant wrote: »

Once that died down, coverage pretty much ended, to be replaced by cheesy (pardon the pun) Kerrrygold ads where aul fellas in flatcaps drove through green pastures with pony and trap and the odd Maeve Binchy / Rosamund Pilcher fillum shot in beatiful wesht Cork scenery..

And, I believe, 'the kelly family'.

Communicationb

Nodin wrote: »

And, I believe, 'the kelly family'.

TBH I think there is alot of playing to the audience with the whole flat cap out in the countryside brigade...to see Ireland as some sort of mystical land full of fairys and green grass...we are having the last laugh by getting them here as tourists, taking their money and showing them the real Ireland:D..traffic jams, crap roads, crap health care, gombeenism etc..but the pubs are great craic..

Scofflaw

jmayo wrote: »

I didn't bother reading the charter, I follwo the lead of my political leaders who don't bother reading reports or treaties

Ah yes, but alas I have no power to summarily execute our political leaders, even virtually.

communicationb wrote:

We are a small island off another island off the coast of Europe..

Lets get something straight here...Nobody gives a **** about Ireland..ireland isnt even a footnote when it comes to international finance and commerce but yet we think we are the centre of the universe and a very important player in the world..our heads are so far up our own asses its untrue...

I always compare Ireland to a toddler..lovely and cute to look at and play with for awhile but when things get serious and adult like..sent off to bed so the big people can talk..

I don't agree with that, really. We are a small country, yes, but still a country. We have, or had, a good deal of respect as negotiators and brokers, partly as a country that's English-speaking but European, and without any strategic interests to defend. We are not a heavyweight, obviously, but we are not nothing either.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sand

I don't agree with that, really. We are a small country, yes, but still a country. We have, or had, a good deal of respect as negotiators and brokers, partly as a country that's English-speaking but European, and without any strategic interests to defend. We are not a heavyweight, obviously, but we are not nothing either.

Nah, we really are about as relevant to world affairs as say...Uzbekistan. Actually the Uzbeks are probably more important given the geo-political importance of central asia. The Irish profile in world affairs is probably higher in our imagination than it is in reality. If some commentators were to be believed, the Shannon stop over was apparently the lynchpin of US world oppression.

You could probably do a fairly effective Irish Borat style mockumentary in the US, continental Europe or anywhere else in the world with people accepting that yeah, the Irish probably do drink horse urine - shure arent they mad out!?!?!?!?

We arent alone in that over-estimating ourselves - consider the British and their "special relationship" with the US which probably bemuses the US that is increasingly hispanic and views Europe as a problem "solved", whereas the Pacific, Africa and Latin America remain huge concerns, where the biggest single european ethnic group is probably German. And I believe when Blair tried some crisis diplomacy between India and Pakistan he was told to stop bothering them unless he had a message from Bush to deliver.

thebman

newname wrote: »

We should be asking ourselves why our little country has a taoiseach earning more than any other EU leader. Why our politicians are earning such large salaries. Look at what our former taoiseach Haughey was up to creaming money from the state. Look at our last Taoiseach lovely Bertie.. his affairs were a little suspect too.

Is it any wonder germany and other countries look at us as they do.

The Irish electorate doesn't seem to demand wrong doings are delt with harshly enough. We tolerate all sorts of shenanigans and sit by as nobody is asked to resign or get sacked. If they go at all they head off with a 6 figure pension.

B*ll*cks to that. The Irish electorate would like to see something done about it IMO. It never gets appropriate media attention from the likes of RTE (state broadcaster), hell the Bertie interview about his finances on the news was a joke interview. Might as well have said, "sure you didn't do anything wrong did ya?" with him replying, "nah, not at all" and then having RTE wrapping it up there and saying well done Bertie.

Purple Gorilla

I was talking to a friend in Germany after I saw this thread and she can't find any mention of Ireland or anything like this in German media and hasn't recently

nesf

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

I was talking to a friend in Germany after I saw this thread and she can't find any mention of Ireland or anything like this in German media and hasn't recently

Odd, there's been plenty of discussion about Ireland, Greece et al and the possibility of Germany bailing them out (Example).

I really don't blame the Germans for being pissed off about the prospect. It's a bit like the unions in this country going "Why won't pay, the bankers should!" except on an international level. Irish financial affairs are now unfortunately something that's in mainstream papers in Europe.

Scofflaw

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

I was talking to a friend in Germany after I saw this thread and she can't find any mention of Ireland or anything like this in German media and hasn't recently

Well, we can do the same in German as in English, courtesy of Google: Ergebnisse 1 - 10 von ungefähr 291.000 während im letzten Jahr für Irische Wirtschaft (results from Germany only in the last year for "Irish economy").

Again, that doesn't look like the Germans aren't paying attention.

cordially,
Scofflaw

nesf

Scofflaw wrote: »

Well, we can do the same in German as in English, courtesy of Google: Ergebnisse 1 - 10 von ungefähr 291.000 während im letzten Jahr für Irische Wirtschaft (results from Germany only in the last year for "Irish economy").

Again, that doesn't look like the Germans aren't paying attention.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Oh, la de dah, someone can Google in German!

herzlich,
nesf

thebman

Scofflaw wrote: »

Well, we can do the same in German as in English, courtesy of Google: Ergebnisse 1 - 10 von ungefähr 291.000 während im letzten Jahr für Irische Wirtschaft (results from Germany only in the last year for "Irish economy").

Again, that doesn't look like the Germans aren't paying attention.

cordially,
Scofflaw

That's too smart, your one of them! *bashes his noggin* :pac:

mumhaabu

I was in Germany last week and they are very interested, and yes Ireland was all over the German media especially the NI shootings. Das Erste had a news bulletin on us and it seemed to be critical despite my not speaking German.

thebman

I'd expect them to blow that out or proportion since they wouldn't fully understand what happened.

For example, they could easily not know or not pick up on the different IRA organisations (PIRA, CIRA, RIRA) and just group them all as one. As such it may look like an attack by Sinn Fein/IRA to them instead of the reality that it is a separate group.

I don't think the details would travel very well to Germany. Even if the press picked up on them, the public wouldn't be paying attention to such details.

axer

thebman wrote: »

I'd expect them to blow that out or proportion since they wouldn't fully understand what happened.

For example, they could easily not know or not pick up on the different IRA organisations (PIRA, CIRA, RIRA) and just group them all as one. As such it may look like an attack by Sinn Fein/IRA to them instead of the reality that it is a separate group.

I don't think the details would travel very well to Germany. Even if the press picked up on them, the public wouldn't be paying attention to such details.

Doesn't really matter who did it because it was a terrorist attack that is causing problems in the north thus it was guarenteed to make headlines - no blowing out of proportions needed. I just hope the Real IRA don't learn to speak arabic.

Dannyboy83

acontadino wrote: »

and also the average german doesn't care we rejected lisbon either. i get the impression these are just little special reports like we get on rte about eu countries like latvia

I disagree with that statement mate.

My sister has been on the receving end of the odd bit of abuse (in academic institutions where you assume people are above it) considering the Irish position on Lisbon and their 'disgusting ingratitude'.


One comment leveled at her (in an EU institution):

"Oh you're Irish - oh very good......You Irish are very good to be dependent and take the money, but when it comes to a little sacrifice, you forget all about us"


===

About Scofflaw's comment regarding the UK's "told ya so" attitude toward the collapse of the Irish economy and Celtic Tiger, I have to say I've witnessed the very same thing in person and been on the receiving end of it.

The thing is Wayne and Waynetta generally have their opinions given to them by "The Daily Mail" and "The Sun" so you just have to ignore that section of society because its inevitable

But some of the commentary in the British Media is dubious at the best of times. While German comments frequently seem accurate and discussing or exposing a problem which Irish people are generally aware of, the British commentary, in my experience at least, is coming from a totally different angle and simply trying to undermine confidence in Ireland by only focusing on the most negative potential scenarios.

Then again I suppose that sells papers.

Dannyboy83

Scofflaw wrote: »

I would say that Ireland is currently in the position of a relentless self-publicist whose trousers have fallen down - or perhaps been found to be swimming naked.

:D PMSL
Something like that anyway.

The thing is, I didn't know we were self publicists, were we?
I mean, we never expounded the virtues of the Celtic Tiger, in a Third Reich or Stalinist fashion - did we?
The British themselves are always banging on about how they were so wise not to join the EMU and their economic policies are so wise, the ECB in Frankfurt has knackered Ireland & interest rates etc. la dee da.

Certainly, from a personal point of view, as someone who has dated a lot of Eastern European women, they always told me Ireland was seen as a model for success, other countries aspired to have our success, but I never heard we boasted about it.
I don't think there were even Recruitment campaigns in Eastern Europe?
Just word of mouth & an ounce of "Build it and they will come".
(The exception would be 'Il Duce Bertie' lecturing Argentina and South America on the Celtic Tiger)

It seems more like like digs on behalf of the British Media, jealousy for being successful and Schadenfreude for screwing it up.

Dannyboy83

jmayo wrote: »

I believe you will find our corruption level to be higher than Germany, after all how many disgraced leaders and ministers have they had over the last 20 years ? How many have spent time in jail ?
How much of their planning was dictated by developers in preference to the social good of society ?

I'm not entirely certain of that, then again I'm not qualified to say.

But, going by what has been explained to me, there is a significant amount of corruption in Germany, but it is never exposed, tackled or prosecuted.

For example, Helmut Kohl apparently had a fund in the millions, solely for bribing opposition parties.
But the German judiciary decided it wouldn't be prosecuted due to the distance between the crime and the exposure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmut_Kohl#Retirement_and_legal_troubles
http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/dec1999/kohl-d30.shtml
http://www.ethicalcorp.com/content.asp?ContentID=4916
** www.transparency.org/content/download/5457/31864/file/political_corruption_party_financing_germany.pdf

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-42226643.html
The corruption scandal hitting former German Chancellor Helmut Kohl and his conservative party widened today with new allegations that the French government of Francois Mitterand helped transfer millions of dollars to support Kohl's re-election in 1994.

On the other hand, in Ireland, we seem to expose every corruption going, then do nothing to reprimand people, to discourage it or even to legislate against it.
We just expose a huge scandal, wreck our reputation, have a big tribunal and continue on our way, staggering across the minefield.
I doubt I need to source that one (hope not anyway!)

Dannyboy83

Communicationb wrote: »

TBH I think there is alot of playing to the audience with the whole flat cap out in the countryside brigade...to see Ireland as some sort of mystical land full of fairys and green grass...we are having the last laugh by getting them here as tourists, taking their money and showing them the real Ireland:D..traffic jams, crap roads, crap health care, gombeenism etc..but the pubs are great craic..

True (and funny:D, I lol'd) but nobody ever won tourists by showing them the reality.
Think of ads for India, you don't see the destitution and poverty.
Think of Paris - Brie and chardonnay, but no Muslim riots

Dannyboy83

Sand wrote: »

Nah, we really are about as relevant to world affairs as say...Uzbekistan.

Uzbekistan can't make up their mind if they are pro-Moscow or pro-Washington (not that US financial donations alleviate the confusion)

I wouldn't ever say we are a major player, but I think we've done well for a small country just climbing out of colonialisim, poverty and papal subservience.
We have had a few diplomatic coups going back to De Valera, so we would be underselling ourselves there.

When when I think of recent times, we have been at the forefront of the EU, *at stages* e.g A10 accession, EU Constitution.

This is what makes it seem like the Germans are angry about our 'about-face' on the EU project. And the obligatory pissing of their money down the lavatory at a Galway Tent.

Karlusss

The weird thing about this is that the people who passed Lisbon/got Lisbon passed are exactly the people who AREN'T part of the corrupt political class - the far left, the far right and the "ordinary people" who don't think critically enough to notice well-packaged bullshit.

So there is essentially nobody in the polity of this country as a democratic entity who aren't to blame.

It's exactly like what people say about middle America, that they never ever see news from outside their own country, that they're completely self-centred and isolated. That's us now. "Little Ireland" that nobody notices is dead. We're being watched and held to account. And we deserve it.

Dannyboy83

Karlusss wrote: »

We're being watched and held to account. And we deserve it.

Being watched - Yes
http://www.herald.ie/national-news/eu-warning-over-debt-1645335.html

Being held to account - No. Or not yet at least mate.

I think a large section of the electorate would be quite relieved if Fianna Fail were held to account.
God knows, there would probably be some soverign dipsh1t going over to bomb Brussels then of course.

Karlusss

Yeah, a lot of the electorate would be relieved if they were "held to account" - the same electorate that voted No to Lisbon, that has elected Fianna Fail and Fine Gael in rotation consistently since independence... it's hypocrisy. People just want to see someone being blamed so they can feel better about themselves and forget that they share some of the fault.

As for the country being held to account - public opinion in Europe has an impact on how European governments deal with us. That counts.

Scofflaw

Karlusss wrote: »

Yeah, a lot of the electorate would be relieved if they were "held to account" - the same electorate that voted No to Lisbon, that has elected Fianna Fail and Fine Gael in rotation consistently since independence... it's hypocrisy. People just want to see someone being blamed so they can feel better about themselves and forget that they share some of the fault.

As for the country being held to account - public opinion in Europe has an impact on how European governments deal with us. That counts.

Perhaps if we say "a big economy did it and ran away"?

Oh, wait, that probably won't work on the Germans.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dannyboy83

Karlusss wrote: »

Yeah, a lot of the electorate would be relieved if they were "held to account" - the same electorate that voted No to Lisbon, that has elected Fianna Fail and Fine Gael in rotation consistently since independence... it's hypocrisy. People just want to see someone being blamed so they can feel better about themselves and forget that they share some of the fault.

As for the country being held to account - public opinion in Europe has an impact on how European governments deal with us. That counts.

I wouldn't say its hypocrisy, just blind ignorance.
A lot of people believed the lies and the promises, like they always have.
A lot of people probably didn't want to believe anything else.
And those who spoke up were conspiracy theorists and were advised to commit suicide.
Or in the case of the German Ambassador, they were punished.

The Anglo affair is fairly unprecedented stuff though, even by Irish corruption levels.

NI has had peace for a decade. SI has had prosperity for a decade.

Now thats in jepoardy and people are bound to be angry, because they believed that this government could and would act accordingly when the time counted.
But the silence is deafening.


As for the Lisbon treaty, I wouldn't pretend to know why that was voted out by the Irish people.
But it does seem to have been more of a 'dirty protest' than anything else, now that the sh1t is sticking to us.

Fratton Fred

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

:D PMSL
Something like that anyway.

The thing is, I didn't know we were self publicists, were we?
I mean, we never expounded the virtues of the Celtic Tiger, in a Third Reich or Stalinist fashion - did we?

No, it was more in a Harry Enfield "We're considerably richer than you" type of way.

The government duped the population into believing they were the second richest country in the world and the Irish people lapped it up and went out and bought themselves another one bedroom shoebox for €300,000 to rent out to a polish immigrant. As you rightly say, anyone who said otherwise was politely told they should hang themselves :eek:

It was obvious that an economy that was based almost entirely on house prices and those house prices were 20 odd times the average wage was going to collapse. Again plenty of people were saying this inside and outside of Ireland. Now that has happened there is an embarrassed accusation made against other countries that they are laughing at Ireland,

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

As for the Lisbon treaty, I wouldn't pretend to know why that was voted out by the Irish people.
But it does seem to have been more of a 'dirty protest' than anything else, now that the sh1t is sticking to us.

My mother in law voted no because she didn't want the EU to be able to force abortion on Ireland or send Irish troops to war. The EU has now secifically stated in the treaty these things won't happen in an attempt to appease the Irish populace.

the rest of europe is thinking "What the **** has abortion or troops going to war got to do with Lisbon?".

You can draw your own conclusions from that.

Fratton Fred

Ironbars wrote: »

Scofflaw has a point, just look at this recent have I got news for you and how it potrays our glorious leader...............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1J-lkE3oTmo

Of course if the same thing was said about the german or French head it would be an acceptable piece of satire, but because it is ireland it is yet terrible and an afront to Ireland.

Are you going to wheel out the "No Blacks, Irish or Dogs" signs next?

palaver

thebman wrote: »

I'd expect them to blow that out or proportion since they wouldn't fully understand what happened.

For example, they could easily not know or not pick up on the different IRA organisations (PIRA, CIRA, RIRA) and just group them all as one. As such it may look like an attack by Sinn Fein/IRA to them instead of the reality that it is a separate group.

I don't think the details would travel very well to Germany. Even if the press picked up on them, the public wouldn't be paying attention to such details.

Details do travel well to Germany. There are quite a few German journalists who actually live in Ireland, some even more than 20 years. So they know exactly what is going on here, know the details, and not only about the different groups up North but also about the economy and wheeler-dealers who run it to the ground.

What the general public reads and understands is a completely different matter, though. But then, this applies to the Irish (and any other) public as well.