Scumbag Gang Attack In Louth

walshb

The problem is why are dogs like this simply allowed roam the streets after dark. Where was the Gardai and why weren't these muts stopped and questioned and taken off the streets. It happened at 0430 hrs?

Teenagers out roaming the streets at this time aren't out for the fresh air!:rolleyes:

Garda presence and Gardai on the beat is what this country needs.

I am not saying Gardai on EVERY street corner; but I bet in this instance, these scum have been roaming the streets freely and without
detection because Gardai haven't been on the beat

thelordofcheese

Wibbs wrote: »

Now maybe this is the case, but it seems at least that they were all released without charge, which I'm assuming means they are no longer under official at least, restraint or surveillance? That's what is worrying to me.

I find it more worrying that everyone seems to have forgotten the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing we're supposed to base our justice system on.

Slow Motion wrote: »

I agree! Could they not at least have been forced to hand in their passports until the situation becomes more clear?

I'm fairly certain you cannot take someones passport unless they've been charged and are on bail (though i'm open to correction on this)

realismpol

walshb wrote: »

The problem is why are dogs like this simply allowed roam the streets after dark. Where was the Gardai and why weren't these muts stopped and questioned and taken off the streets. It happened at 0430 hrs?

Teenagers out roaming the streets at this time aren't out for the fresh air!:rolleyes:

Garda presence and Gardai on the beat is what this country needs.

I am not saying Gardai on EVERY street corner; but I bet in this instance, these scum have been roaming the streets freely and without
detection because Gardai haven't been on the beat

Spot on, From what i know policing in this country isn't carried out the way it is in other countries. When i was living in the united states and over in the u.k i'd see frequent patrols by police cars and police officers walking the beat most days if not every day. Even in quiet neigbourhoods. The very fact you see a policeman around on a regular basis reinforces in your mind safety and security. Thats what they intend it for and it works. It also deters would be criminals. Over here you might be lucky if you see a policeman if you drove from one end of the country to the other on any given day. You might see some traffic patrol cars but no cops out on the beat doing footpatrols.

The gaurds don't seem to do this. They seem to wait in stations for a call and respond to an incident rather then engage in proactive policing. Im not blaming them or anything because orders come from the top but the methods they use are questionable at best. I know in the states they look at population and designate a certain amount of policemen for every couple thousand or hundred people. They do regular patrols as part of their job and have schedules do do this often at the same time to reinforce their presence amongst the local community. There is no substitue for police presence, none and we have seen that to our cost in this country.

I never seem to see gaurds doing patrols, particularly foot patrols. All i see is sometimes the odd traffic police car driving around and no doubt this is carrying out some mundane task like checking people's tax discs. That is the only time i see gaurds out of their cars, when they are standing at checkpoints checking people's discs.

The way policing is done needs an overhaul as well as the justice system. It doesn't cost the taxpayers a penny to have police out on foot patrols. This should be done on a scheuduled basis with each member assigned a certain amount of patrols each week on rotary basis. Thus there will always be cops on the beat. The problem in this country is that all the cops are stuck behind the desk writing files to the dpp or showing up for court appearances instead of being out on the street preventing crime so that they don't have to send files to the dpp. Bureacy out of control in this country and needs to end.

If the above overhaul was done the problem would dissapear or would be very rare as these thugs would fear the consequences. As it stands they know the system very well and what they can get away with. Theres no getting around that issue. The habit and trying to make excuses for our current system hasn't made things any better only worse. Its time for a change.

Pamela111

Mingey wrote: »

This is just a horrible thing to happen. The couple of couples were in a car and got severely beaten and the woman dragged off and raped.

It is a terrible story.

This kind of stuff seems to be happening more and more now in Ireland.

Slow Motion

thelordofcheese wrote: »

I'm fairly certain you cannot take someones passport unless they've been charged and are on bail (though i'm open to correction on this)

You are probably right but surely a case can be made for taking it from someone if they are under suspicion of comitting a crime, if a file has been sent to the DPP then that sounds like there are charges pending, giving them the opportunity to skip the country, then we are into all the hassle of extradition!

znv6i3h7kqf9ys

realismpol wrote: »

Spot on, From what i know policing in this country isn't carried out the way it is in other countries. When i was living in the united states and over in the u.k i'd see frequent patrols by police cars and police officers walking the beat most days if not every day. Even in quiet neigbourhoods. The very fact you see a policeman around on a regular basis reinforces in your mind safety and security. Thats what they intend it for and it works. It also deters would be criminals. Over here you might be lucky if you see a policeman if you drove from one end of the country to the other on any given day. You might see some traffic patrol cars but no cops out on the beat doing footpatrols.

The gaurds don't seem to do this. They seem to wait in stations for a call and respond to an incident rather then engage in proactive policing. Im not blaming them or anything because orders come from the top but the methods they use are questionable at best. I know in the states they look at population and designate a certain amount of policemen for every couple thousand or hundred people. They do regular patrols as part of their job and have schedules do do this often at the same time to reinforce their presence amongst the local community. There is no substitue for police presence, none and we have seen that to our cost in this country.

I never seem to see gaurds doing patrols, particularly foot patrols. All i see is sometimes the odd traffic police car driving around and no doubt this is carrying out some mundane task like checking people's tax discs. That is the only time i see gaurds out of their cars, when they are standing at checkpoints checking people's discs.

It doesn't cost the taxpayers a penny to have police out on foot patrols. This should be done on a scheuduled basis with each member assigned a certain amount of patrols each week on rotary basis. Thus there will always be cops on the beat. The problem in this country is that all the cops are stuck behind the desk writing files to the dpp or showing up for court appearances instead of being out on the street preventing crime so that they don't have to send files to the dpp. Bureacy out of control in this country and needs to end.

The place is in the middle of nowhere and can not be seen from the road so I think it's a bit unfair to blame the Gardai not being in the area. Where it happened is between Drogheda and Slane. The car park has the facility to keep the gates locked at night so I don't know why they don't. People go there because they probably won't be seen and couples have gone there every weekend for years in their cars to make out. Very unfortunate what happened.

znv6i3h7kqf9ys

The place is in the middle of nowhere and can not be seen from the road so I think it's a bit unfair to blame the Gardai not being in the area. Where it happened is between Drogheda and Slane. The car park has the facility to keep the gates locked at night so I don't know why they don't. People go there because they probably won't be seen and couples have gone there every weekend for years in their cars to make out. Very unfortunate what happened.

thelordofcheese

Slow Motion wrote: »

You are probably right but surely a case can be made for taking it from someone if they are under suspicion of comitting a crime, if a file has been sent to the DPP then that sounds like there are charges pending, giving them the opportunity to skip the country, then we are into all the hassle of extradition!

Conversely you cannot simply take someones passport because they might be charged at some future date, maybe.

While it makes sense to some in this paticular case, actions like taking someones passport because it's suspected that they might have committed a crime is the begining of a very slippery slope.

Tigger

vigilantisim will rise again soon

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/3413273/Italy-considers-legalising-vigilante-groups.html

seems suitable i can find no down side

Wibbs

thelordofcheese wrote: »

I find it more worrying that everyone seems to have forgotten the whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing we're supposed to base our justice system on.

Frankly I don;t find that worrying. That's mob mentality and like the poor will always be with us, just like the other extreme of the bleeding heart brigade. Both smack of Ivorytowerism.

That shít's all very well for debate, but in practical terms, I am more worried when suspects in a seemingly organised, frenzied physical and sexual assault, who have been identified by one of their victims and are a possible flight risk are released with no safeguards in place for the community at large. If indeed they do turn out to be guilty of involvement in this crime, we may now have a group of very dangerous men at large with no restrictions on their movements. I'm sure the Garda in the area will keep an unofficial beady on them, but that should be backed up by law and precedure in serious cases such as this.

I'm sorry but this is not a question of innocent until proven guilty, but an issue over a more effective system should be in place where one is charged, is brought before a panel or single judge who decides the risk to the community and sets bail and restrictions, rather than in this case where evidence seems strong enough to forward a file to the DPP, but not enough to at least allow for restriction of movement or surveillance. That's the issue I have. If they turn out to be innocent then fine, that's the rule of law. If they turn out to be guilty and get silly sentences that's a debate for another day.

As for the Garda. They have serious problems with resources. Throw in a cynicism about the process after they do their end of the job and frankly I'm not surprised this happens. We are very lucky to live in a pretty non violent country by and large. If it ever escalated the Guards would be in no position to respond, no matter whether their heart was in it or not.

Slow Motion

thelordofcheese wrote: »

Conversely you cannot simply take someones passport because they might be charged at some future date, maybe.

While it makes sense to some in this paticular case, actions like taking someones passport because it's suspected that they might have committed a crime is the begining of a very slippery slope.

If their is an active investigation relating to that person I would have no problem with withholding their passport until guilt or innocence is determined, it is a very specific circumstance and I don't think it would set us upon a slippery slope!

walshb

Aubrielle Bald Dipstick wrote: »

The place is in the middle of nowhere and can not be seen from the road so I think it's a bit unfair to blame the Gardai not being in the area. Where it happened is between Drogheda and Slane. The car park has the facility to keep the gates locked at night so I don't know why they don't. People go there because they probably won't be seen and couples have gone there every weekend for years in their cars to make out. Very unfortunate what happened. .

What has that got to do with it?

The scum must have been roaming before they got to this place. That is my point. What were they up to an hour, two hours or three before this.

Then, the parents also have to answer for part of this. Did they know or care
where their teenage offspring where or what they were up to?

It's not good enough to simply say, "Ah, sure it was in the middle of nowhere, what could have been done." To me, that is a defeatist attitude and not good
enough

Garda presence is ****ing non existent in Ireland. Too busy sitting on
their arses in stations instead of being on the beat monitoring and patrolling and sussing out potetial dogs like these.

Electric Sheep

walshb wrote: »

I am not saying Gardai on EVERY street corner; but I bet in this instance, these scum have been roaming the streets freely and without
detection because Gardai haven't been on the beat

Yes, that would be because it is not illegal to be roaming the streets, so there is nothing to "detect". Even if you are a teenager (oh the horror), even if it is 4am. It's a free country, people are allowed to walk the streets.

Slow Motion

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Yes, that would be because it is not illegal to be roaming the streets, so there is nothing to "detect". Even if you are a teenager (oh the horror), even if it is 4am. It's a free country, people are allowed to walk the streets.

I think if you see a teenager or group of them roaming the streets at 4am carrying crowbars then you can reasonably assume they are not looking for a little old lady to help across the road.

SWL

I have a bad feeling these guys are going to either do runner or walk,if it was member of my family I would be ready to explode with rage about the injustice of the whole ordeal.

Three people are seriously assaulted one raped and the perpetrators are at home having a cup of tea while their victims are in hospital recovering. How do you stop thugs and scum like these arriving into our society.

Hate to say this (really do) this country is really turning into a banana republic

ben bedlam

I hope them scumbags die crying, screaming and alone.

walshb

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Yes, that would be because it is not illegal to be roaming the streets, so there is nothing to "detect". Even if you are a teenager (oh the horror), even if it is 4am. It's a free country, people are allowed to walk the streets.

Well that attitude is the reason these scum are free to perpetrate these crimes. I am not saying it is or should be illegal to be out at 4 am. I am saying that a Garda should
be able to determine WHY young gangs of teenagers are knocking about loitering at 4 am. I do believe loitering is an offense and a Garda can quiz and suss out scum
like this.

At least with the Garda presence and threat, then these scum may think twice about
their actions

Don't be so damn liberal and blase' about it. If there is a genuine and honest
reason why these teenagers are knocking about, let a Garda determine
this. But to simply turn a blind eye and say "it's not illegal, end of story," then
that is only fueling the problem

positron

SWL wrote: »

How do you stop thugs and scum like these arriving into our society.

Not all of them are 'arriving' - plenty of scumbags growing up in this very society too..!

Stricter policing. Serious punishment. If the age of the thug (teenager etc) makes it hard to punish them, punish the parent - hold them responsible. Or change to law so that parents have less responsibility, but teenagers can be punished like adults etc.

realismpol

Stricter punishment(that wouldn't be hard there currently is none) and proper policing is the key. In australia and elsewhere they have curfews after certain hours. Any teenagers caught out are brought back home in a patrol car or brought to the police station and their parents charged fines. That would soon teach them to control their offspring. Teens out at 4 in the morning? Sorry unless your at going home from a nightclub or returning home from somewhere there is no reason for roving gangs of teens to be out at that time. By all right they should be assumed to be up to no good because the majority of them are up to no good.

These teens were carrying crowbars which they beat the couples with. So yeah normal rational people would think a group of teens carrying crowbars at 4 in the morning, they aren't out looking to enjoy the scenery.

We could definetly employ the curfew method. Would help with the economy, paying police bills and the worst place to hit someone is sometimes their pocket. This method would also need to be backed up by police presence though. No point having laws with no enforcement which is what we have a lot of in this country.

Daroxtar

Just a thought, but where are the mighty IRA punishment squads that were going round breaking young lads legs for knocking out a bit of spliff? If they can attack army bases and policemen, surely a couple of teenagers would be a piece of cake. Let them prove themselves now and knock on these dirt bags doors. Lets see how rapey they feel without their nuts and the use of their legs.

Chr!st i hate the cnts. Its sick to think that at best they'll serve about 3 or 4 years in a nice plush cell at a cost of 100k per year at the states expense.

thelordofcheese

If their is an active investigation relating to that person I would have no problem with withholding their passport until guilt or innocence is determined, it is a very specific circumstance and I don't think it would set us upon a slippery slope!

Of course you wouldn't. In of itself it seems innocent enough, almost reasonable. but i maintain that it's not.

Firstly, being investigated doesn't mean your guilty, so your basic rights shouldn't be curtailed under mere suspicision. The same rights that seems so unfair now in this case, are the same ones that protect everyone of us. They exist for a reason and throwing them aside because the mob is angry and upset is a terrible idea.

Also to highlight why this is a bad idea, even without your passport, you can get to the UK with reletive ease. From there, you can hide pretty well and stand a pretty good chance of making it onto the continent.

So, really, if we've justifed taked passports from people because of them being a flight risk while under suspicision, how far do we have to go to make this viable?
Removing all forms of ID?
Longer holding periods?
Indefinite holding periods?

Frankly, only the last one would really do what we set out to achieve with holding passports.

Now, i don't, for one minute think this will ever happen. Thankfully, people do see to be quite capable of ignoring the baying mob, but it always confuses the living fuck outta me when i see people so willing to give up their rights for the illusion of security.

NetLink

According to the Herald, some of the attackers are "believed to be from Lithuania".

I didn't even know they were non-nationals until now. I know some people might say it doesn't make a difference, but in my opinion this does make a difference - it shows to me at least that there are scumbags coming in to Ireland (to live or work or whatever) and have absolutely no respect for the people living there (whether they're Irish or not) or for the law!

I can't imagine they attacked these two couples so they could land in prison afterwards, so they obviously thought they could get away with it!

I was in the States (New Hampshire) a few years ago and there was a strong presence of cops. If people, especially groups of people, were spotted by cops after 3 or 4 a.m. without a valid/believable/genuine reason for hanging around, they'd be arrested (never mind being sent home or told to clear off)! It was pretty crazy, but them cops wouldn't take any crap.

Actually, the craziest thing I ever saw was in NH during the day - from one second to the next the whole area there (was a holiday area with beach) was absolutely riddled with cops - precincts from two towns as well as state police. They were running around like mad with batons, and looking at their faces it seemed like they had rabies or something We were just standing there wondering what was going on (there didn't seem to be any apparent reason for them being there), and 3 cops charged at us with batons. I thought we were going to get run down by them In the end they just told us to go inside. Never found out what all that was about.

Anyway, point is if the guards here were a bit tougher and showed a stronger presence, maybe scumbags like these wouldn't feel they could get away with crap like this.

Dave!

walshb wrote: »

Don't be so damn liberal

lol

NetLink

walshb wrote: »

Well that attitude is the reason these scum are free to perpetrate these crimes. I am not saying it is or should be illegal to be out at 4 am. I am saying that a Garda should
be able to determine WHY young gangs of teenagers are knocking about loitering at 4 am. I do believe loitering is an offense and a Garda can quiz and suss out scum
like this.

At least with the Garda presence and threat, then these scum may think twice about
their actions

Don't be so damn liberal and blase' about it. If there is a genuine and honest
reason why these teenagers are knocking about, let a Garda determine
this. But to simply turn a blind eye and say "it's not illegal, end of story," then
that is only fueling the problem

I agree 100%! It's usually not THAT difficult to spot troublemakers and scumbags can be spotted by a blind person!

DaBreno

NetLink wrote: »

Actually, the craziest thing I ever saw was in NH during the day - from one second to the next the whole area there (was a holiday area with beach) was absolutely riddled with cops - precincts from two towns as well as state police. They were running around like mad with batons, and looking at their faces it seemed like they had rabies or something We were just standing there wondering what was going on (there didn't seem to be any apparent reason for them being there), and 3 cops charged at us with batons. I thought we were going to get run down by them In the end they just told us to go inside. Never found out what all that was about.

So thats our future...More Police lads, wha?

NetLink wrote: »

Anyway, point is if the guards here were a bit tougher and showed a stronger presence, maybe scumbags like these wouldn't feel they could get away with crap like this.

I dont see how you can blame the cops for this one. They got a suspect, aided and abetted by the rape victim who pointed out her assailant from her hospital bed! The Gardai brought the f*ckers in. Its our *Justice system* that decided to let them back into the wilderness again.

I wonder sometimes if being a Guard in this country is one of the worst jobs you can have. For any cop over 10 years service, the morale must be long gone. To drop off a crew of gang rapers, one of whom was hauled in on a similar conviction and watch then walk back out again, I wouldnt give a fcuk too long in a job like that. Its the courts and lack of prison spaces that let the People and the Police down in a situation like this.

Fcuk me, glad I dont live in Louth right now. Is it only plebs that respect the law....?

realismpol

NetLink wrote: »

According to the Herald, some of the attackers are "believed to be from Lithuania".

I didn't even know they were non-nationals until now. I know some people might say it doesn't make a difference, but in my opinion this does make a difference - it shows to me at least that there are scumbags coming in to Ireland (to live or work or whatever) and have absolutely no respect for the people living there (whether they're Irish or not) or for the law!

I can't imagine they attacked these two couples so they could land in prison afterwards, so they obviously thought they could get away with it!

I was in the States (New Hampshire) a few years ago and there was a strong presence of cops. If people, especially groups of people, were spotted by cops after 3 or 4 a.m. without a valid/believable/genuine reason for hanging around, they'd be arrested (never mind being sent home or told to clear off)! It was pretty crazy, but them cops wouldn't take any crap.

Actually, the craziest thing I ever saw was in NH during the day - from one second to the next the whole area there (was a holiday area with beach) was absolutely riddled with cops - precincts from two towns as well as state police. They were running around like mad with batons, and looking at their faces it seemed like they had rabies or something We were just standing there wondering what was going on (there didn't seem to be any apparent reason for them being there), and 3 cops charged at us with batons. I thought we were going to get run down by them In the end they just told us to go inside. Never found out what all that was about.

Anyway, point is if the guards here were a bit tougher and showed a stronger presence, maybe scumbags like these wouldn't feel they could get away with crap like this.

I agree and i think the problem is not just down to the justice system totally. I mean the garda commissioner and successive justice ministers bear responsibility for this also. I would like to see a breakdown of exactly how many patrols on foot or in car gardai do in each precint each year. I have my doubts that regular patrols are part of their job at all.

They seem to be a reaction based force rather then a proactive one. I would back up the statement on cops in america. Back in newark same story cops would come down to the empty parks each night with their spotlights checking to see if anyone was around. This was at about 11:30 when i was down at the athletics track. They would go around checking all blind spots exactly the type of places these scumbags gather around in this country. They even shone the torches at us and questioned us a few times and this was at 10:30 at night. Anyone caught out i.e underage after 2:00 o'clock are simply arrested.

Whilst i don't blame the gaurds for the problems as it is sickening for them to see a revolving doors policy they need to stand up and make their voices and frustrations known to the justice minister. I also think policy should be set by the gardai and not the justice minister. Too much power in the hands of people who have clearly no grasp on reality whatsoever.

Also their needs to be a serious review and examination into how many patrols are carried out. Gardai need to be doing regular rotary based patrols as part of their job. We need a police presence every night in every town and city. Its as simple as that. That includes patrolling parks etc.

Its not a novelty its a requirement in most countries i.e u.k, usa, australia etc. Even in australia the cops would come in with the dogs at night to check on people at bars etc for drugs, weapons etc.

As i said there is no substitute for police presence you can make all the excuses you want. There simply is none. Police presence deters crime its a proven fact. Patrolling is part of a cops job. Sitting behind a desk writing files and showing up for court appearances is what solicitors do.

PeterLT

NetLink wrote: »

According to the Herald, some of the attackers are "believed to be from Lithuania".

I didn't even know they were non-nationals until now. I know some people might say it doesn't make a difference, but in my opinion this does make a difference - it shows to me at least that there are scumbags coming in to Ireland (to live or work or whatever) and have absolutely no respect for the people living there (whether they're Irish or not) or for the law!

Well this is what you are getting for letting everybody to come here... Cead Mile Failte? Is it? You wouldn't be let in to England if you are murderer or rapist but you can come to Eire and get PPS no. no difference to your criminal past... Many Lithuanians have found shelter from Lithuania justice system here... The reason for that is that policing in Eire is hilarious compared to Eastern Europeans. FFS this is why I'm applying Garda Reserves, couse I can't bear how Lithuanians and Polish are abusing this system.

They feel them selfs unpunishable, even if they will go down for couple years it will be still a holiday for them... If you are found guilty for a rape in Lithuania and other inmates will find out that, they will be raping you all time untill youre free... Seriously, if you're a maniac or pedophile you'll be abused in a worse matter than you did to your victim.

I don't support IRA for killing innocent people just to show their point, but I would support them and join them to punish scumbags that gardai are letting go without the charge in lack of evidence...

BTW I'm Lithuanian my self and I hope this comment wouldn't be erased by mods couse I'm not being a racist I'm just being fair

dotsman

PeterLT wrote: »

Well this is what you are getting for letting everybody to come here... Cead Mile Failte? Is it? You wouldn't be let in to England if you are murderer or rapist but you can come to Eire and get PPS no. no difference to your criminal past... Many Lithuanians have found shelter from Lithuania justice system here... The reason for that is that policing in Eire is hilarious compader to Eastern Europeans. FFS this is why I'm applying Garda Reserves, couse I can't bear how Lithuanians and Polish are abusing this system.

They feel them selfs unpunishable, even if they will go down for couple years it will be still a holiday for them... If you are found guilty for a rape in Lithuania and other inmates will find out that, they will be raping you all time untill youre free... Seriously, if you're a maniac or pedophile you'll be abused in a worse matter than you did to your victim.

I don't support IRA for killing innocent people just to show their point, but I would support them and join them to punish scumbags that gardai are letting go without the charge in lack of evidence...

BTW I'm Lithuanian my self and I hope this comment wouldn't be erased by mods couse I'm not being a racist I'm just being fair

You, of course, can point to evidence to back all this up?

PeterLT

dotsman wrote: »

You, of course, can point to evidence to back all this up?

What I said is 100pc true... What kind of evidence do u need?

dotsman

PeterLT wrote: »

What I said is 100pc true... What kind of evidence do u need?

Links to reputable sources would be nice...