"... and he earns more than Barack Obama"

ceegee

Is anybody else sick to death of the above line being trotted out anytime the taoiseach's salary is discussed?

It's a completely pointless argument, just because Cowen has a higher basic salary doesnt mean he's costing us more, take a look at the expenses and perks that come with the US job, who pays for that? Surely any comparison between the two should take the White House, Camp David, Air Force One, Marine One, etc into account.

The taoiseachs salary is high, too high, but lets not fall for this tabloid notion that he is costing the state more than other heads of state are.

peasant

errrm ... try and cost those salaries per head of the population.

I'd say Obama is probably due some golden palaces before he catches up with Biffo.

jim o doom

he may not have the whitehouse or airforce one - but he has plenty of privileges - free travel, helicopter travel, travel allowances, bonuses.

Not only that if you directly compare him to the UK - he earns more than the Prime minister - all of the TDs in Ireland have fewer constituants than their counterpart MPs in the UK - but work SIGNIFICANTLY fewer days (I saw a lovely thing in a paper recently showing the difference in how many days our officials work compared to the UK) & on top of less days work and fewer constituants - they ALSO get paid a LOT more.

Now these same politicians of ours not only do less work and get paid more - they then have the gall (like haughey) to ask US to tighten OUR belts. I get paid just over 25k and I'm losing money through extra taxation and this fantastic new pensions levy business. dead sound.

What cuts do our well paid TD's take? PRACTICALLY NOTHING.

And you are surprised people are complaining? get yer head out of the sand will ye?

jimmmy

Well said peasant + jim. Yes the taoiseach is costing the state ( our children + grandchildren who will have to pay back the money ) more than other heads of state are. He is setting a bad example for everyone else....but then what else do you expect ? A foreigner said to me recently why does our govt and public service pay themselves more than everyone else....and why do people lend to us at all....it will not go on forever.

MoominPapa

OK. How about "...and he earns more then Anders Fogh Rasmussen" then?

cooperla

OP: I'm not getting sick of hearing it. I would like to hear everyone in this country loudly speaking about this.

As far as I can tell from speaking to people, mostly everyone has expressed an understanding that we all have to do this together if we're ever going to get out of it. However, we want to see fairness. I know taxing only the rich will not solve our problems, but it would go a long way in making the sacrifices we all must make easier to swallow.

The government has made some noise recently about bankers pay packets, but we hear little about themselves and people running companies such as ESB. If the government would come out today and say "we've all got to do our part and so all politicians and anyone running state and semi state bodies will be talking a 25% pay cut from today", then the extra taxes they'll be announcing soon will be received much more positively by me.

So, again, not sick of hearing it at all, just a little sick of the people making these salaries not listening.

newname

It's a completely pointless argument, just because Cowen has a higher basic salary doesnt mean he's costing us more, take a look at the expenses and perks that come with the US job, who pays for that? Surely any comparison between the two should take the White House, Camp David, Air Force One, Marine One, etc into account.

Thats not the point, its his take home salary. Its way to high. It doesn't matter that Obama has air force one thats part of his job. A crane driver uses a very expensive crane but gets paid similar to a bus driver. Its the take home pay that matters not the equipment or perks they use.

ceegee

MoominPapa wrote: »

OK. How about "...and he earns more then Anders Fogh Rasmussen" then?

I think thats probably a more valid comparison, I dont honestly know enough about the setup in Denmark to comment on it but population, avg wage are somewhat similiar

As I said in my first post, Im not saying we dont overpay our politicians, we do, and they need to take a bigger decrease than the 10% the ministers took (and the pension levy). But I just feel the comparisons with Obama, Sarcozy, Brown aren't evenhanded. They may earn a lower salary than our leader but they also are provided with far greater perks as well as the knowledge that they can make millions off the back of their term in office once they leave.

Vegeta

ceegee wrote: »

as well as the knowledge that they can make millions off the back of their term in office once they leave.

Yeah our guys just make their millions in big lumps of cash they keep hanging around, cant recall where they got it or anything, it just turns up

jim o doom

ceegee wrote: »

I think thats probably a more valid comparison, I dont honestly know enough about the setup in Denmark to comment on it but population, avg wage are somewhat similiar

As I said in my first post, Im not saying we dont overpay our politicians, we do, and they need to take a bigger decrease than the 10% the ministers took (and the pension levy). But I just feel the comparisons with Obama, Sarcozy, Brown aren't evenhanded. They may earn a lower salary than our leader but they also are provided with far greater perks as well as the knowledge that they can make millions off the back of their term in office once they leave.

Look at my post. England is a GOOD comparison. They have a similar parliment to the Oireactas (I think I spelt that right). The MP's in England also have constituents and constituancies LIKE IRELAND.

The MPS in England have larger constituancies, more constituants, they work more days a week (have you seen how short our TD's work week actually is in direct comparison to England? and for this they get paid LESS than our TD's.

So if the method of government and the work carried out by the TD's and MP's is similar yet there are discrepancies between workload and pay (our crowd getting paid more for less work, fewer constituants and a shorter work week..

why should we then NOT directly compare their wages? Simply because you are sick of it? It's a VALID comparison.

I mean ok - it's a bit MORE of a stretch with Obama - but the fact is our little country which is suffering a (wait for it) recession - and our TD's and our Taioseach get paid more than any other government memeber and at the same time take all the money from those with little.

It's fairly straight forward and it's something everyone should know about and shout to the high heavans about in an attempt to RECTIFY the situation.

old boy

they keep trotting out the line we need to pay big money to attract the right type of person, be jaysus if thay are the right type of person i shudder to think what we would got with 50 grand a year less. naw we would have just the same kind of fly by night. seing whats above in the dail many people would have trouble selecting a decent cabinet.

turgon

ceegee wrote: »

But I just feel the comparisons with Obama, Sarcozy, Brown aren't evenhanded. They may earn a lower salary than our leader but they also are provided with far greater perks as well as the knowledge that they can make millions off the back of their term in office once they leave.

But as one OP said, they govern countries 10, 20, 80 times the size of ours?? Way more responsibility?

AlekSmart

Au contraire ceegee,I believe the comparison to be probably the easiest and most accurate which Ordinary people can make.

Our Taoiseach has Farmleigh,recently refurbished at phenomenal expense.
Our Taoiseach,and virtually every other Government personage continues to utilize the Air Corps fixed and rotary craft as a personal Air Taxi service at equally phenomenal cost to the exchequer.

Probably the only area where our leader lags behind is in a personal security detail and that, I suspect,is about to change.

I,for one,am hopeful that this comparison will continue to be made,over and over again until WE,the electorate,begin to see sense and demand a downward review of this fiscal theivery.

However,as Jim O Doom sez,the REAL comparisons should be with the Her Majesty`s Government and their renumeration arrangements especially when set against their total time spent on direct Parliamentary business.
The size of the relative countries is not an issue,a duly elected Political Administration has a duty to govern in a fair and equitable manner whether its 1 or 100 Million is immaterial

The comparisons are truly staggering and as a direct cost to the exchequer,our Government Pay and Pension rates are now untenable.

This mornings revelations from the EBS once again puts the focus on just what led the Nation to the precipice.

A very prudently managed and respected once Mutual Society suffers its first loss in 74 years and it`s all down to the huge shift from sane,well managed domestic market lending to the eye glinting massive returns available from unrestricted Commercial Development business.......quelle surprise ?

At least Mr Obama is earning some of his meagre salary by ensuring the snake-oil salesmen such as Bernie Madoff and co are having to contemplate some quality stir-time.....the front page pictures of a beaming "Seanie" knocking a few balls around Druids Glen very vividly show that Mr Cowan`s administration has a different concept of "Accountability".

Next Levy idea please......:o

Raiser

ceegee wrote: »

Is anybody else sick to death of the above line being trotted out anytime the taoiseach's salary is discussed?

It's a completely pointless argument, just because Cowen has a higher basic salary doesnt mean he's costing us more, take a look at the expenses and perks that come with the US job, who pays for that? Surely any comparison between the two should take the White House, Camp David, Air Force One, Marine One, etc into account.

The taoiseachs salary is high, too high, but lets not fall for this tabloid notion that he is costing the state more than other heads of state are.

What's your point exactly?

- This tiny Island has a population of 4.fcukall million - compare that with the annual tax take of the United States which has an estimated population of some 305 Million

The fact is that our unelected, accidental Taoiseach who spends his days clumsily aping a buffoon and wandering lost through his own car-wreck political fallout zone is a living embodiment of how subtle adjustments in a corrupt and self-serving political system can, in time, spawn astonishing realities - such as Brian Cowen actually drawing a salary substantially larger than the President of the US.

Permabear

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ceegee

Raiser wrote: »

What's your point exactly?

such as Brian Cowen actually drawing a salary substantially larger than the President of the US.

Does he though?

Was trying to get exact figures on google - It gives Cowens salary as €278,618 in an article from 01/09/08.
The US President gets $400,000 a year salary, thats €314,494 according to xe.com

Not sure if these figures are accurate but if so it kind of contradicts what the media have been saying. (Also think that Cowen's figure may have been pre 10% cut?)

peasant

donegalfella wrote: »

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So he's making hay while the sun shines, right?

Probably wise ...people would pay NOT to hear him speak (or look at him) once he's done running this country to the ground

jimmmy

donegalfella wrote: »

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He is the laughing stock of the world trying to run of country of not much more than 3 million....imagine what he would be like trying to run a country - arguably the leading country in the free world - of 300 million ?

Besides, I am sure ex Presidents of the US have plenty of hangers on and assistants to pay when they leave office. Our ones ( ex Taoiseach ) sometimes just have to live on private islands / estates and shop in Paris with their Mistress.

Permabear

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jimmmy

ceegee wrote: »

- It gives Cowens salary as €278,618 in an article from 01/09/08.

Think he gets other money as well ( ministers pension or something ? )

markpb

donegalfella wrote: »

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Ignoring the fact that it's completely irrelevant (he's in office to run the country, not set himself up as post-dinner entertainment), Bertie has done quite well for himself since resigning. On top of his mayors and ministerial pension, he's also getting paid TD wages and charging a large amount of money for speeches.

ceegee

donegalfella wrote: »

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The comparisons may have started when that was the exchange rate but they still seem to crop in most discussions on td salaries even though they are no longer accurate

markpb wrote: »

Ignoring the fact that it's completely irrelevant (he's in office to run the country, not set himself up as post-dinner entertainment)

Its not irrelevant though, people are arguing that other head of states are less greedy for taking lower salaries, they arent. They accept lower salaries because they know the easy money thats coming their way once they leave office.

Permabear

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peasant

donegalfella wrote: »

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And there I was, thinking these guys ran for office because of some warped sense of "conviction" and/or "duty" ...ah well ... :D:D

Permabear

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Permabear

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turgon

Bear in mind that Barack Obama is both head of government and head of state. So maybe ye should add both Cowens and McAleeses salary's together for an accurate comparison.

Sleepy

And should we factor in the amount of holidays taken by each, the amount of time spent opening friends businesses/attending funerals in their local constituencies at public expense, etc. ad initum ad nauseum too turgon?

Can anyone honestly tell me that Brian Cowen is better value for his salary to the Irish people than Barrack Obama is for his salary to the American people?

Earning potential after you've finished your position has no bearing on the value you provide for your salary.

Permabear

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jim o doom

donegalfella wrote: »

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</p>
It actually is completely irrlevant looking at it from the PUBLICS perspective - which is what this discussion is about.

Sure form Cowens perspective as an earner and a person who will want to earn money after leaving power (soon hopefully) - that makes lots of sense from his perspective.

However this is about the publics perception of the matter, about what our Taoiseach does for what he is paid in DIRECT comparison to what other presidents or Prime ministers (ala UK) do for for their countries, as per hours worked, constituents, what they get paid for their job.

It is not for us as members of the public to care about what our taoiseachs earning power is once he leaves government, the same as it is not a worry of the US electorates, what a president may earn once he leaves office.

People are drawing comparisons on what our leaders are doing, how much work they do, how effective they are (while STILL in power) etc.
Not only that, but the self same representative of the people (of themselves I should say) are asking everyone, the public, the public service, and anyone else, to be subject to heavy taxation, suffer wage cuts etc, when they themselves are not willing to do the same.

Fine whatever about Obamas earning potential - look at the UK as I have said several times, how much work their parliment does (purely looked at in terms of how many days the sit in parliment compared to the oireactas), the number of their constituents and what they get paid.

There is STILL a big discrepancy. Sure money is a PERSONAL factor of motivation for Cowen (scum that he is) - but he is clearly and openly hypocritical when asking the same haughy question "tighten our belts" when he won't do it himself.

And like I say, whe it comes to the electorate questioning his antics, actions and motivations - we don't need to question or care about his earning potential when out of government - we need to ask what he is doing for the money he earns.
The answer is a resounding NOTHING - of course I could replace the word nothing with the statement "digging us deeper and deeper in to a hole which will need a lot of work to be got out of."

jim o doom

donegalfella wrote: »

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It certainly does. on a personal level for anyone in power, having to reisist wage cuts.

Now correct me if I read it comepletely wrong; but the OP was intially complaining about the comparison between Cowen and Obama, correct?
Why should we care about either persons earning potential once they leave office? we shouldn't and we don't. We care about what they do in power and what they get paid when in power - once the leave power, they are no long "supposed to be serving the public good".

Therefore the comparison remains valid - from the publics perspective - which is what the OP was complaining about..