English Clubs in Europe

shakespeare

Having watched Liverpool litterally destroy Real Madrid last night...
Having seen Chelsea knock out Juve
Arsenal travelling with a 1-0 lead while Utd expected by many(allbeit not all) to progress tonight...

Is english football getting too strong for its European counterparts? or is it simply a gulf in class between Europes elite and the following pack that is the main problem?

what i mean is, fans of the top four in england readily expect to be in the latter stages of the champions league each year. the group stages for the most part are a formality these days and the usual suspects are always involved. with the riches rolling in at astronmic rates for the big premiereship clubs in comparison to other European "heavyweights"...this does not look like a trend that will buckle or sway anytime in the near future...

Italian clubs have had periods of dominance, as have spain...and even Bayern and Dortmund were in on the action for a while...but never before has money played such a dominant role in english clubs overall success in europe and judging by transfer spends continuing to increase, this seems to be more long term problem...

how many on here agree that, in relation to europe anyway, the playing field needs to be leveled somewhat?
in fact, Is the premiership "pulling away" at all or is it just "englands turn" in europe?
and when a team with a fantastic youth set up and squad filled with players brought through the ranks...such as Sporting Lisbon...get humiliated on such a grand scale...does it worry you to think where football is headed?

Royale with Cheese

Give it another couple of years. If it's 3/4 English teams in the quarter finals every year with an a couple more all English finals then I reckon something might be done about it, although what I've no idea. Reduction of champions league places for England to 3 most likely.

keane2097

I was actually thinking of starting a thread on this very issue this morning. When I say the draw for this stage I thought great, maybe two of the English teams will get booted here and we can have the "European" Cup back, but it's not looking likely now.

Perhaps it is just a variance induced period of dominance for the English sides, but something should definitely done if the semis have 3 English teams every year. It'll get boring fast...

Xavi6

OP, you forgot to mention the team left in the Uefa.

whatawaster

Xavi6 wrote: »

OP, you forgot to mention the team left in the Uefa.

the what?

redout

PREMIERSHIP SIDES ARE TOO STRONG. The Italians and Spanish never had this amount of teams dominate the tournament and reach the later stages simultaneously over a number of seasons. Money is obviously a big factor in it as the top four in England are in the top 10 on the money list. I really dont mind it at all and makes the tournament more intresting from a premiership fans point of view in my opinion. I would have loved a Man Utd v Liverpool final last year. The Chelsea thing was not my cup of tea. The big four are as good as anyone in europe so at the end of the day they deserve to be were they are. If Uefa take away a position from the premiership and start getting serious abot 6+5 then 7+4 I think big clubs will start up regular meetings of a European superleague and put the ****s up Uefa if they get serious about it who will immediately panic then tell FIFA to mind there own business when push comes to shove. Like really, what else would Platini do if the likes of United, Barca, Milan etc threatened to form a breakaway league and actually showed serious intent. Uefa needs the big teams more than they need Uefa in my opinion as Uefa Champions league would be nothing without them. Tv audiences, Sponsorship and general interest would all diminish and switch to a European Super league which I reckon would be more of a champions league type comp than a league itself. Blatter and Maldini are biased twats who hate the english dominance.

invincibleirish

Its all about the money.

Spain, Italy & Germanys clubs can't compete year in year out with the PLs level of spending.

Its over to UEFA now to try and figure out a way to solve this dilemma, in the 1980s they had hooliganism as an excuse to ban English teams from continental competitions(because it was only English teams who rioted obviously). What now? the 6+5 rule?

DubDani

It's all about the money advantage. I think the real question is how much longer the british TV Stations can afford the huge money they pay atm. With the current recession I would imagine that people will have to cancel their SKY or Setanta subscriptions which in turn will dicatate how much the Stations can pay for the rights.

In other countries the TV rights are not fetching anywhere as much money. I believe Bayern gets somethig like 24 mil. a year. But they have far higher Gate receipts and merchandise income then most other european and english clubs.

If the TV money difference between England and the rest of Europe narrows you will see an open CL again, and the current english dominance ended.

mike65

Money my arse!

How much have Real spent in recent years? Barca? Bayern? Even the Italians were spending.

DubDani

Real lives off credit and managed somehow to survive by selling their training ground.

Bayern makes it up by selling average players for inflated prices (Hargraves) and by Merchandise. I believe Bayern have the by far highest Income from Merchandise in Europe (there was a report posted on boards a few weeks back).

Overall UK or not, I believe no team should be allowed to play in Europe (or even in it's own first league) that have certain debt levels. IMO it would be a farce if Valencia would be allowed to compete in Europe next year, even though they are currently unable to pay their players.

Clubs need to be selfsufficent IMO, and should not be depending on some kind of "Sugardaddy" to drag them along.

redout

mike65 wrote: »

Money my arse!

How much have Real spent in recent years? Barca? Bayern? Even the Italians were spending.

Barca spent about €90 Million this past summer and Real spent €70 odd Million also. I think the point is that more English sides have more money. Example Spain, only two have real money were in England four have huge money although the arguement is flawed as Arsenal dont spend and do admirably without.

shakespeare

how about looking at teams bringing players through for european competition...

if teams had to field "x" number of players who had been at the club for "x" number of years or had spent "x" amount of time in the youth set-up?

this would give each team a greater focus to promote youth and an incentive to not just buy an already established superstar to garner imediate success?

instead, it would make managers buy young "next big thing" players (al la arsene) and let the club makes its mark on them?...instill them with the values, style and ethics of the club...and then fans would feel more of a connection to the players they've watched grow up, pride in the shirt would again flourish and there would be bigger reasons then cash to stay at clubs...

i dunno...just an idea like...with pleanty of flaws...but as a utd fan who grew up in the 80's, im finding it harder and harder to connect with some of the players we sign for big money, for 2-3 seasons and then move on...imagine how id feel if i was actually a Manc! money and success is great...but is it still football when the cards are so highly stacked??

whatawaster

redout wrote: »

Barca spent about €90 Million this past summer and Real spent €70 odd Million also. I think the point is that more English sides have more money. Example Spain, only two have real money were in England four have huge money although the arguement is flawed as Arsenal dont spend and do admirably without.

more english sides may have money, but English sides have done very poorly in the Uefa cup in recent years. I don't know if this is because of a lack of quality, or not caring, or what. It does suggest a lack of depth in English football.
I'd be very interested to see how the likes of Villa, Everton, City etc would do in the CL.

Mr. Presentable

OP, it's Englands turn. There's a cycle in football as in life. Nothing stays at the top forever, and no-one knows what might be around the corner.

English football is currently the most monied, previously it was Italy, and before Spain. And regardless of what people think, money is the crux of clubs success. Not just in the transfer fees they can pay, but in the salaries, the facilities they can provide.

Why is English football currently the flavour? I believe much has to do with global access to football from anywhere in the world and the fact that English football is broadcast in English!

mike65

They'd get murdered as nearly all debutant teams are, it takes a few seasons to get to grips with sustaining a CL challange.

As for UEFA Cup, this season most teams had domestic issues to deal with Villa threw thier tie, Spurs were a little more serious but still sent out a team with squad/youth players, Pompey gave it go but were just not quite good enough. City if they are serious (they look more secure in the Prem) could go a long way.

bigstar

shakespeare wrote: »

how about looking at teams bringing players through for european competition...

if teams had to field "x" number of players who had been at the club for "x" number of years or had spent "x" amount of time in the youth set-up?

this would give each team a greater focus to promote youth and an incentive to not just buy an already established superstar to garner imediate success?

instead, it would make managers buy young "next big thing" players (al la arsene) and let the club makes its mark on them?...instill them with the values, style and ethics of the club...and then fans would feel more of a connection to the players they've watched grow up, pride in the shirt would again flourish and there would be bigger reasons then cash to stay at clubs...

i dunno...just an idea like...with pleanty of flaws...but as a utd fan who grew up in the 80's, im finding it harder and harder to connect with some of the players we sign for big money, for 2-3 seasons and then move on...imagine how id feel if i was actually a Manc! money and success is great...but is it still football when the cards are so highly stacked??

good post.

on whatawasters point. i think the uefa cup is more competitive than the CL, thats why english teams dont do as well. i think its fair to say a lot of PL teams would be better than rangers yet they made it to the final. the uefa cup is like the FA cup used to be, anyone can win it, that cant be said of the CL.

roar_ie

Here's my 2c on the issue.

UEFA should pool the TV money from the Champions League and the UEFA cup and then spread the total amount more eqaully over all the competitions and the clubs that participate with the champions league participates getting slightly more per game, say €100,000 or something like that. That way the winners of the Champions League winners would only earn maybe €2,000,000 more than the winners of the UEFA/Europa cup.

Also I think all of the semi-finalists of the UEFA/Europa cup should go straight into the Champions League proper the following season. (I believe another poster mentioned something similiar in another thread)

JPA

mike65 wrote: »

They'd get murdered as nearly all debutant teams are, it takes a few seasons to get to grips with sustaining a CL challange.

As for UEFA Cup, this season most teams had domestic issues to deal with Villa threw thier tie, Spurs were a little more serious but still sent out a team with squad/youth players, Pompey gave it go but were just not quite good enough. City if they are serious (they look more secure in the Prem) could go a long way.

But City have to play away games in Europe. :eek:

IvySlayer

Yes, English clubs are doing very well in Europe, every country had a 'golden era'.

Italy and Spain had their eras. The Premier League is the richest league in the world, of course, they have the biggest fanbase. English Football has Premiership, Championship, League 1, 2, 3, Conference, it goes on and on!

You could argue they are outspending, but Inter, Milan, Real Madrid, Barcelona have all spent millions just like Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea.

Sepp Blatter seems to be determined to bring down the PL.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/7927410.stm

I love his arguments. I didn't see him complaning when Spain and Italy were number 1. Also the 'imbalance of power'. Hmm....it's not as if the same 4 clubs in Italy/Spain/Germany/France are consistently winning their leagues!

Zonda999

roar_ie wrote: »

Also I think all of the semi-finalists of the UEFA/Europa cup should go straight into the Champions League proper the following season. (I believe another poster mentioned something similiar in another thread)

Agree with this also. That said, Zenit didn't have much to offer in the CL this season

As for English teams getting too strong, ti has to be said that its exclusively the big 4 in a big way. If Villa finish 4th, i'd love to see what they could do in the CL next season. Remember, when Everton finished 4th, they never even made it to the group stages

therecklessone

I think Spanish and Italian sides have an unfair advantage in attracting skilful South Americans because it's easier for the players to adapt in those cultures. Language plays a huge part IMHO. What's Uefa going to do about that, eh?

Football is cyclical, at some point in the future (if the suits haven't managed to set up their Euro Superleague) another country will emerge dominant for whatever reason, be it money/climate/youth structure whatever.

Continental sides cannot cope with the athleticism and work rate of English sides right now. They'll adapt.

mike65

Something that is curious is this business of continental sides not being able to cope with the EPL styled game, and yet the Prem is now stuffed with "johnny foreigner" most of whom seem to cope fine (albeit with a period of adjustment for some) so why are teams such pussycats? Does it not occure to them to get fitter and toughen up if they know that most seasons they'll prolly meet a Prem side at some point?

roar_ie

mike65 wrote: »

Something that is curious is this business of continental sides not being able to cope with the EPL styled game, and yet the Prem is now stuffed with "johnny foreigner" most of whom seem to cope fine (albeit with a period of adjustment for some) so why are teams such pussycats? Does it not occure to them to get fitter and toughen up if they know that most seasons they'll prolly meet a Prem side at some point?

I think it is more to do with the tempo of the primier league. Players in the premier league are used to playing games week in week out at a higher tempo. It would be very hard for a few teams in other countries to implement this as most games they wouldn't need to or have to play at such a tempo to get a result.

I think Johnny Foreigner's adjustment peroid is not just for fitness and toughness but also with improving speed of thought and reactions on the pitch. The latter aspects would be tough to train/develop without the competative matches to go along with it.

Raskolnikov

Here's how the money is spread.

http://www.futebolfinance.com/en/deloitte-football-money-league-2009/

At least in the Premier League, TV money is spread fairly evenly whether you're Manchester United or West Brom. In Italy though, AC Milan get something like 10 times the TV money that a team like Siena do.

keane2097

therecklessone wrote: »

I think Spanish and Italian sides have an unfair advantage in attracting skilful South Americans because it's easier for the players to adapt in those cultures. Language plays a huge part IMHO. What's Uefa going to do about that, eh?

Very valid point imo.

Zonda999 wrote: »

Remember, when Everton finished 4th, they never even made it to the group stages

To be fair, didn't Everton meet Villareal or someone equally strong in the qualifying round?

Daemonic

shakespeare wrote: »

how about looking at teams bringing players through for european competition...

if teams had to field "x" number of players who had been at the club for "x" number of years or had spent "x" amount of time in the youth set-up?

this would give each team a greater focus to promote youth and an incentive to not just buy an already established superstar to garner imediate success?

instead, it would make managers buy young "next big thing" players (al la arsene) and let the club makes its mark on them?...instill them with the values, style and ethics of the club...and then fans would feel more of a connection to the players they've watched grow up, pride in the shirt would again flourish and there would be bigger reasons then cash to stay at clubs...

i dunno...just an idea like...with pleanty of flaws...but as a utd fan who grew up in the 80's, im finding it harder and harder to connect with some of the players we sign for big money, for 2-3 seasons and then move on...imagine how id feel if i was actually a Manc! money and success is great...but is it still football when the cards are so highly stacked??

Already in the rules - link
But teams tend to be able to get by without having to dip into that pool of 8 players if they need to.

17.08 No club may have more than 25 players on List A during the season. As a
minimum, places 18 to 25 on List A (eight places) are reserved exclusively
for “locally trained players” and no club may have more than four
“association-trained players” listed in places 18 to 25 on List A. List A must
specify the eight players who qualify as being “locally trained”, as well as
whether they are “club-trained” or “association-trained”. The possible
combinations that enable clubs to comply with the List A requirements are
set out in Annex VIII.
17.09 A “locally trained player” is either a “club-trained player” or an “associationtrained
player”.
17.10 A “club-trained player” is a player who, between the age of 15 (or the start of
the season during which he turns 15) and 21 (or the end of the season during
which he turns 21), and irrespective of his nationality and age, has been
registered with his current club for a period, continuous or not, of three entire
seasons (i.e. a period starting with the first official match of the relevant
national championship and ending with the last official match of that relevant
national championship) or of 36 months.
17.11 An “association-trained player” is a player who, between the age of 15 (or the
start of the season during which the player turns 15) and 21 (or the end of
the season during which the player turns 21), and irrespective of his
nationality and age, has been registered with a club or with other clubs
affiliated to the same national association as that of his current club for a
period, continuous or not, of three entire seasons or of 36 months.
17.12 If a club has fewer than eight locally trained players in its squad (i.e. in places

eagle eye

uasdofuwdfklgfklh

I was just about to post a pretty long reply when my browser crashed.:mad:

x in the city

DubDani wrote: »

Real lives off credit and managed somehow to survive by selling their training ground.

Bayern makes it up by selling average players for inflated prices (Hargraves) and by Merchandise. I believe Bayern have the by far highest Income from Merchandise in Europe (there was a report posted on boards a few weeks back).

Overall UK or not, I believe no team should be allowed to play in Europe (or even in it's own first league) that have certain debt levels. IMO it would be a farce if Valencia would be allowed to compete in Europe next year, even though they are currently unable to pay their players.

Clubs need to be selfsufficent IMO, and should not be depending on some kind of "Sugardaddy" to drag them along.

I second this, munich suck..! I often frequent Frankfurt aM and see munich tops everywhere, even in Bad Hamburg outside the city I saw munich tops in a sports shop ffs.

English teams would struggle big time if this new foreign players rule comes into force.

Everton must be the only team with an all engrish defence...:D

x in the city

keane2097 wrote: »

Very valid point imo.



To be fair, didn't Everton meet Villareal or someone equally strong in the qualifying round?

Yes, Everton played Villareal and were unlucky to have been beaten a perfect duncan ferguson goal disallowed, anyways.

Villareal have been formidable opponents in the CL since then, its not like we drew some 3rd division russian minsks

shakespeare

never read that before...quite detailed isnt it!

was kinda thinking more along the lines of the actual starting line ups though...meaning if "x" amount of players starting a game had to have come up through the youth set up...then the manager would need a greater pool of youth players/club rared players to pick from...and perhaps it would revert to this being the norm practice eventually. make it so its no use buying a 30million superstar if ya havent got the "club rared" players coming through to offset him. and sure the youth coming through may not be up to the current standard in many of europes top teams starting 11's AT THE MOMENT...but if the emphasis is put back on clubs creating their own unique standards, cultures and identities...its moving the emphasis away from superstars doing their "apprenticeships" with poorer teams before their big money moves to the limelight.

dont think the "home grown" players thing is an issue, as in nationality, what platini is waffling on about...clubs are global entitys now...and it doesnt mean that if a player pulls on the shirt of a team from another country, he cant be in love with the fans and the history.

but if teams simply couldnt just buy, buy, buy...and at least had to buy young and invest in development instead of finished product...then perhaps we would be rewarding inovative coaching methods and passionate dedication with the trophies and the glory...instead of handing them to the most marketable brands or latest carefree investors?

eagle eye

Right I'll try it again.

Money does play a huge part in whats going on at the moment, but there is more to it than that.

You go back a couple of years to when the Spanish sides were on top, you had a lot of really top class Spanish players, Madrid has Casillas, Hierro, Helguera, Guti, Morentes and Raul, Valancia had Canizares, Gerard(the spanish one), Mendietta and Angulo, Barca had Puyol, Xavi and Luis Enrique.

At this moment in time you have a lot of very special players in England from England, the likes of Gerard, Lampard, John Terry, Ashley Cole, Rio Ferdinand, Michael Carrick, Wayne Rooney, Paul Scholes.

Arsenal are different with Wenger developing talent albeit most of it foreign from a young age. Thats very special.
I think you are seeing this approach at Liverpool under Rafa Benitez now too. But I think that there is a large number of very high class English players right now and that certainly makes a difference.

Mr. Presentable

eagle eye wrote: »

Right I'll try it again.

Money does play a huge part in whats going on at the moment, but there is more to it than that.

You go back a couple of years to when the Spanish sides were on top, you had a lot of really top class Spanish players, Madrid has Casillas, Hierro, Helguera, Guti, Morentes and Raul, Valancia had Canizares, Gerard(the spanish one), Mendietta and Angulo, Barca had Puyol, Xavi and Luis Enrique.

At this moment in time you have a lot of very special players in England from England, the likes of Gerard, Lampard, John Terry, Ashley Cole, Rio Ferdinand, Michael Carrick, Wayne Rooney, Paul Scholes.

It's still down to money. Top scouting and top academies cost.

mike65

So then all four through, albeit with a struggle for the Gunners.

PHB

Barca might disagree

x in the city

If you look at the expenditure of the sky four in england vs the top four/5 in germany/italy/spain/france

english teams have spent far more on players over the last 5/6 years.

simple

Guy:Incognito

redout wrote: »

PREMIERSHIP SIDES ARE TOO STRONG. The Italians and Spanish never had this amount of teams dominate the tournament and reach the later stages simultaneously over a number of seasons. .

Course it does help that the numbers of teams allowed from each country increased as the English teams get stronger.

Would have been a neat trick for the Italians or Spanish to have 4 teams in the Quarters in the 80's or 90's.

RichTea

Soccer tends to move in cycles. In a couple of years it'll be the Italian or Spanish teams dominating again and so on. Granted you won't hear Sky Sports bang on about how wonderful the superior Italian or Spanish teams are then though.

Pepe LeFrits

The Spanish and Italians should get their own houses in order before worrying and moaning about the PL.