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Fight or not?
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There are plenty of practical things one can do to help improve society and the lot of your compatriots. Why not think of one and do it instead of indulging in useless childish walter mitty nonsense.
Anyway, I would suggest that anyone who claims to know how they'd respond in the event of the country being occupied by a foreign power should watch The Sorrow And The Pity, the documentary about the French resistance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeO89EgDWrM
Having mentioned the French, it's probably necessary to preempt the moronic cheese eating surrender monkeys meme, so one word: Verdun.
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You would not be laughed out of it ....
Funnily enough I'm from Cork and of a Protestant background (albeit a largely working-class background), my family were all Republican during the war. Similarly I know and am good friends with a number of West Cork Protestants who find this whole nonsense argument from a discredited Canadian as hilarious. (Although their entire family are all ginger so maybe they blended in with the West Cork populace!
)
As I said, those who were targets for the IRA in Cork were those collaborating and touting, irrespective of religion. There were some instances of mobs attacking Big House Unionists, which is why Tom Barry ordered guards posted at their house. But that has nothing to do with the Republican Movement in Cork.There was an innocent family called the Pearsons , for example....look what happened to them
They were informers who had previously fired upon a party of IRA Volunteers who were cutting down trees for barricades. They deserved to be whacked. As I said, in the middle of a war collaborating and informing to the occupational forces is nothing shy of treachory, whether its Catholics or Prods.0 -
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BlitzKrieg wrote: »To keep things civil, I would say overall I supported the irish movement for national freedom, but I would consider some events on the road to independence *unwise*.
But saying that does not mean I disagree wholely with the series of events.
Just because I easily disagree with 1916 doesnt mean I disagree with the war of independence (after 1916 I would say the war of independence might have been the only choice.)
I really disagree with the civil war because civil wars as a whole are something I despise, but I am very fond of some elements of Valera's period in power.
On the issue of Home Rule, yes we were practically tasting it at 1914, the only thing holding it back was there was a verry real, written down, signed with blood and delivered directly to the british parliment threat that if Home Rule was passed the unionists will fight britain to stay part of the Union (yes it is something I wonder to this day what it would have looked like, Unionists fighting the british army to remain part of britain, obviously though they would have been fighting irish soldiers with british backing which would have been just as weird)
THe day World War 1 broke out, the british parliment were discussing this very issue, and as someone already said that civil war could have been worse then the war of independence.
It could also be argued that it was that very threat and the initial gun runnings by the unionist that buried Home Rule and that nothing except all out war of independence could have brought it back.
But the fact that by 1920 the North happily accepted it was own form of Home Rule puts water on that fire and that maybe without the war of independence the same treaty would have come around anyway.
But its all ifs and maybes. You need to accept history, just not praise it blindly.
And all of the above is useless waffle anyway.
What I wanted to get to, and its my favourite part is 1931
Ok, war of independence etc, in the end all we had was Home Rule by a different name, still had British rule. Here is what I love.
The Statute of Westminster
eh eh?
An act with no irish involvement in its process, no party pushing for it nor great war to achieve.
Something the British government itself popped up to better rule itself and its dominions combined with a British royalty abdicating and *Boom* we were a republic in all forms except title.
I find it amazing how something can come out of nowhere on the international politics and suddenly we had everything we needed. All it took was someone who knew how he wanted to use it.
Which is where we come back to the events we are argueing over it.
Would someone like Redmond or Griffith had used the Statute of Westminster like de Valera did? Or did it need someone with that extra bit of ambition the desire for full independence no matter what? You could argue that they would have as it was the opposition that would declare full independence over ten years later You could argue they wouldnt because it was clear in 1914 that Redmond was very much an old fashioned politicion who lacked edge of 20th century politicions that came about after the first world war one and that by his actions during the war and after it he would have been someone who would have never considered using the statute of westminster like that.
But all these ifs ifs ifs ifs its a bit nutty.
All that stands is atfer all the fighting and all the political canvasing, the most crucial element had nothing to do with irish politics at all.
that just makes me smile at how awesome history is
if i am correct, the statute of westminister, the ideas of such, was brought about during the commenwealth/empire conferences. i understand and would be happly corrected, that people such as Kevin O'Higgins and Des Fitzgerald and some members from the South African Dominion were heavily involved in the working and promotion of same during the annual conferences. - thus removes some notion that cumann na ngaedheal were out and out west brits. cosgrave, a veteran of 1916, was a constitutionalist who quiete obviously was had the horse before the cart man and agreed fully with collin's step towards freedom speech. as you correctly pointed out the statute was the finest indication of what collins meant and the tool that helped dev dismantle the treaty within 15 or so years.
i have heard too, that the ulster convenant of 1912 was signed by some in blood, but i think that was a myth. again, happly to be corrected on this.0 -
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Whats with this use of the term 'British Empire'? (I dont get that) seeing as 'we' spread the Empire all over the globe along with Britain. As regards the Protestant community, some moved Up North, some moved to Britain, and many stayed and kept their heads down whilst being diluted & turned into into Dev's children > see below.
British Empire - What don't you get about it?
The article itself makes reference
I'm well aware of that, don't worry. Irish Civil servants ran India, Irish workers built the canals and the railways, Irish soldiers fought in the British Army.
I don't dispute Protestants had a hard time from their neighbours, The Irish government don't seem to be doing a good job stopping the pikeys from giving me a hard time either.:D
But there are ignorant people everywhere, I know for a fact that some Irish and protestants got along like a church on fire.
So is that why we have thousands of protestants in Cork still?Ah yes, the 'Ne Temere decree' > the perfect ethnic cleansing tool (no blood spilt) yet they disappeared.
Why do we still have the methodist churches and the Cathedrals?
I don't get it. Did they ethnic cleanse based on a specific geneotype or something?Actually, most of the people you speak of were Irish, and needless to say it wasnt a very comfortable place for them after Dev's dream was realised & his Mono cultural, closed, isolationary State was founded.
Ok....I will tell you what.
Come to Cork. Go to Bandon, Newcestown, Skibereen and any place in between.
Show me the burned down churches and the graves and the corpses and I will believe you.
Otherwise you may aswell me telling me that Ian Paisley had President Kennedy assassinated.
You can make all the smart quips you like, but it doesn't change the fact that its baseless and irrefutably wrong.
In some ways I agree with you.If only DeVelera had never set foot on this island ...........0 -
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