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Should the UK remove the prohibition of Catholics succeeding the crown?

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2

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    #32
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,077 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    asdasd wrote: »
    they can be.

    Had there been large numbers of Jews and Muslims in England when the succession laws were dreamt up, they would have probably been excluded along with Catholics. It's possible that all of Jews had been kicked out at the time, and that the Muslims hadn't drifted too far away from the middle-east.


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    #33
    ziggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭ziggy


    This post has been deleted.


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    #34
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    I find the whole idea of monarchy repugnant, whatever their faith may be

    I used to believe that too, but now I belong to the "Era, whatever works" school of politics.


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    #35
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    I never felt alienated, and never met any other UK Catholics who gave a damn either.
    Maybe you are not smart enough to work out that you are considered not as good as the next guy by the british establishment if you are a catholic.
    If that is the case why would other people bother to discourse on a serious matter with you.


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    #36
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    getz wrote: »
    look in your own back yard - some catholic schools in the republic ban soccer in schools because its look on as protestant
    I was educated in a catholic school and we played a lot of soccer and had a school team. We did not even block the team captain from having a protestant girlfriend if he so desired.


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    #37
    Svalbard
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Svalbard


    This is a ridiculous argument. No Catholic would want to have anything to do with the monarchy.

    Imagine having some smelly old man or woman in a funny hat as your leader, living in an incredibly opulent palace, surrounded by powerful, shadowy figures with weird titles you don't understand and with their own private guards dressed in ridiculous, over-the-top uniforms carrying bayonets.

    No, the Catholics wouldn't be into that sort of thing at all!


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    #38
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Svalbard wrote: »
    This is a ridiculous argument. No Catholic would want to have anything to do with the monarchy.

    Imagine having some smelly old man or woman in a funny hat as your leader, living in an incredibly opulent palace, surrounded by powerful, shadowy figures with weird titles you don't understand and with their own private guards dressed in ridiculous, over-the-top uniforms carrying bayonets.

    No, the Catholics wouldn't be into that sort of thing at all!
    If the pope suddenly decides that he wants to get married then I do not believe that he should be expressly banned from marrying a Protestant.


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    #39
    Svalbard
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Svalbard


    blinding wrote: »
    If the pope suddenly decides that he wants to get married then I do not believe that he should be expressly banned from marrying a Protestant.

    Who said anything about the Pope?


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    #40
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,077 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    blinding wrote: »
    Maybe you are not smart enough to work out that you are considered not as good as the next guy by the british establishment if you are a catholic.
    If that is the case why would other people bother to discourse on a serious matter with you.

    Having been born and brought up in the UK, I can categorically state that whatever you have to say on the subject of Catholicism and the British establishment is pure fantasy.


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    #41
    Svalbard
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Svalbard


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Having been born and brought up in the UK, I can categorically state that whatever you have to say on the subject of Catholicism and the British establishment is pure fantasy.

    Why? Its because he's a Catholic isn't it?


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    #42
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,077 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Svalbard wrote: »
    Why? Its because he's a Catholic isn't it?

    Who is?


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    #43
    Svalbard
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Svalbard


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Who is?

    Blinding.


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    #44
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,077 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Svalbard wrote: »
    Blinding.

    So Catholics aren't allowed to be born in the UK?


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    #45
    Svalbard
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Svalbard


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    So Catholics aren't allowed to be born in the UK?

    Not if the Brits can help it. Abortions for all. Miniature flags for others.

    Actually hang on, what are you talking about?


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    #46
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,077 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Svalbard wrote: »
    Actually hang on, what are you talking about?

    ditto


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    #47
    blinding
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Having been born and brought up in the UK, I can categorically state that whatever you have to say on the subject of Catholicism and the British establishment is pure fantasy.
    There is a law that says that the head of state of Britain cannot marry a Catholic (everybody else is okay though). This is a fact.

    Is there any point in having a serious discussion with someone that declares fact as fantasy.

    Your next fantastic thesis is that this is not discriminating against Catholics.

    The Royal courts used to have a Fool for entertainment.
    Perhaps your life is one long audition for the role to be resurrected.


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    #48
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    How about finding out why England forbids Catholic Monarchs? why not read a bit about "Bloody Mary" and work out just how many times Rome has tried to undermine the British Monarch.

    People in Ireland only hear about the oppression by the English of Catholics, but Rome was twice as bad and called on the armies of Spain and France to defeat the heretics.

    Lads, you want to blame someone for this mess, blame Rome.


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    #49
    Svalbard
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Svalbard


    There have been a few threads recently about NI and Anglo-Irish affairs. They all descend into the same kind of tit-for-tat bickering. When they do they become boring and pointless and should be:

    (a) Made fun of

    or

    (b) Ignored.


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    #50
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users Posts: 24,077 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    blinding wrote: »

    It is not surprising that some catholics feel rejected and alienated from some of the institutions of the British establishment.

    This is the fantasy to which I referred.
    blinding wrote: »
    There is a law that says that the head of state of Britain cannot marry a Catholic (everybody else is okay though). This is a fact.

    Is there any point in having a serious discussion with someone that declares fact as fantasy.

    Your next fantastic thesis is that this is not discriminating against Catholics.

    The Royal courts used to have a Fool for entertainment.
    Perhaps your life is one long audition for the role to be resurrected.

    I would suggest that you go and read the forum rules with regard to insulting posters.


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    #51
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    why not read a bit about "Bloody Mary" and work out just how many times Rome has tried to undermine the British Monarch.

    bloody mary - not really that bloody. Elizabeth killed far more Catholics than Mary protestants.
    People in Ireland only hear about the oppression by the English of Catholics, but Rome was twice as bad and called on the armies of Spain and France to defeat the heretics.

    People in England hear that all the time , though, and most know nothing about the penal laws, for instance. I agree that England would have had a genuine fear of Spain.


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    #52
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    asdasd wrote: »
    bloody mary - not really that bloody. Elizabeth killed far more Catholics than Mary protestants.
    the idea of protestants was pretty new in Mary's day, but she would have happily executed any heretics
    asdasd wrote: »
    People in England hear that all the time , though, and most know nothing about the penal laws, for instance. I agree that England would have had a genuine fear of Spain.

    We were told about the Penal Laws in School. We knew all about a Priest's Hole.....not too dissimilar to being brought up in Ireland I suppose:D


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    #53
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Svalbard wrote: »
    There have been a few threads recently about NI and Anglo-Irish affairs. They all descend into the same kind of tit-for-tat bickering. When they do they become boring and pointless and should be:

    (a) Made fun of

    or

    (b) Ignored.
    I strongly recommend choosing (b).


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    #54
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    How about finding out why England forbids Catholic Monarchs? why not read a bit about "Bloody Mary" and work out just how many times Rome has tried to undermine the British Monarch.

    People in Ireland only hear about the oppression by the English of Catholics, but Rome was twice as bad and called on the armies of Spain and France to defeat the heretics.

    Lads, you want to blame someone for this mess, blame Rome.


    Good point. Many teachers here in Ireland are great about teaching / indoctrinating about "the auld enemy" but do not mention things like the Spanish inquisition as much.


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    #55
    grahamo
    Registered Users Posts: 761 ✭✭✭grahamo


    malman wrote: »
    Given that nearly half of the population of NI, a state within the UK, are Catholics and that Roman Catholicism is set to become the dominant religion in Britain is it now time for the UK to remove its prohibition of Catholics succeeding the crown?

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article1386939.ece

    Of course they should remove that ridiculous, outdated rule. It seems the govt. over there will bend over backwards so as not to discriminate against muslims and other religions so why keep up the outdated discrimination of catholics.
    Prince Charles said in an interview he wanted to be a "Defender of faith" rather than "Defender of THE faith" which seems a sensible move.


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    #56
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    but do not mention things like the Spanish inquisition as much.

    Why would they? It was small beans compared to the penal laws. About 3,000 people were killed across 5 centuries, most people were acquitted. Torture? Do you know what the English did to Bishops and Priests, or "treasonous" Catholics caught in the ever more hysterical Catholic plots, and treason had different defence - guilt was assumed, the accused did not have right to information on charges against them, Catholic witnesses were not accepted. ( Read about the plot against Sam Pepys)

    In fact the opposite is true. Everybody in the English speaking worlds "knows" about the Spanish Inquisition ( and that we never expect it). The Spanish call this a black legend, and the Spanish speaking world doesnt really teach it.

    The truth is somewhere in the middle.


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    #57
    getz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,255 ✭✭✭getz


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Had there been large numbers of Jews and Muslims in England when the succession laws were dreamt up, they would have probably been excluded along with Catholics. It's possible that all of Jews had been kicked out at the time, and that the Muslims hadn't drifted too far away from the middle-east.
    jews have always been in the uk as long as people can remember the only time they were persecuted was when the church of rome was in charge /in fact at one time in europe the only safe haven for jews was the uk and gibraltar, during the churches inquision all the spanish jews fled to gib-in the early days of the republic the irish state had anti/jewish laws-it was the churches burnings of non cathloic peoples that made that evil cromwell the man he was


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    #58
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    they were persecuted was when the church of rome was in charge

    when was that? the secular King of England kicked out the Jews, not the Pope who didnt "control" England at the time. Thats a bit DUP.


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    #59
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    asdasd wrote: »
    Why would they? It was small beans compared to the penal laws. About 3,000 people were killed across 5 centuries, most people were acquitted. Torture? Do you know what the English did to Bishops and Priests, or "treasonous" Catholics caught in the ever more hysterical Catholic plots, and treason had different defence - guilt was assumed, the accused did not have right to information on charges against them, Catholic witnesses were not accepted. ( Read about the plot against Sam Pepys)

    In fact the opposite is true. Everybody in the English speaking worlds "knows" about the Spanish Inquisition ( and that we never expect it). The Spanish call this a black legend, and the Spanish speaking world doesnt really teach it.

    The truth is somewhere in the middle.

    3,000 killed across 5 centuries? the French managed to massacre more protestants than that in one day, St Bartholemews day in fact.

    I thought the peoples of Ireland were only too familiar with the history of the Huguenots, a great many of whom ended up in Cork I believe.


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    #60
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    the French managed to massacre more protestants than that in one day, St Bartholemews day in fact

    True, but that's not the inquisition. The inquisiton had rules :-)


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    #61
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    asdasd wrote: »
    True, but that's not the inquisition. The inquisiton had rules :-)

    The French wars of religion, the Spanish Armada being sent to England on behalf of the Pope, Mary Tudor, when you put it all in context, it is easy to understand how and why the law came about.

    It is stupid, outdated and bigoted now and yes it should be changed, but ask any Catholic in the UK do they feel like a second class citizen they will say no. As I said earlier, even Cardinal Cormac Murphy O'Connor doesn't see any pressing need to change the law.

    When it needs to be addressed, it will be and i am pretty confident that will be when (if) Charlies is King. New broom etc. At the moment, it is all just a storm in a tea cup tbh.


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