Awwww- Poor Politicians get an increase

yop

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/83643000-hike-for-tds-as--workers-pay-is-cut-1669838.html


Sweet god. How the hell can they justify this?? :rolleyes:

sparklepants

The article's title is typical indo:

€3,000 hike for TDs as workers' pay is cut

It implies that TDs don't work. The article also infers that they're not effected by tax hikes:
A

LARGE group of TDs will get a €3,000 pay rise in eight weeks time -- just as ordinary workers are getting used to tax hikes in the emergency Budget.

In my view, there is merit in a system where the longer-serving members get paid a little more (just 3%) than the new guys. That money is saved every time a TD sitting for more than 7 years loses his seat. Therefore, the nett additional cost of this measure will always be zero over the longer term. I would't expect an attention-seeking celebrity journalist to be able to get his head around that though. The cost of TDs salaries is best reduced by reducing numbers of TDs.

Another rubbish article in a rubbish newspaper.

moonbug33

At this stage nothing surprises me any more - helicopters..........first class travel........hair cuts.......5 star Hotels.............top of the range ministerial cars hidden in garages..........jet travel.................getting a pension while working as a TD.........on and on it goes. It really is very serious they tell us………we must all feel the pain equally they tell us…….well they need to start leading by example.

P. Breathnach

yop wrote: »

Sweet god. How the hell can they justify this?? :rolleyes:

The Independent seems to be able to justify bad journalism to itself very easily.

Naz_st

sparklepants wrote: »

The article's title is typical indo:
That money is saved every time a TD sitting for more than 7 years loses his seat. Therefore, the nett additional cost of this measure will always be zero over the longer term.

The Nett Additional cost will always be zero? How'd you figure? Compared to simply not paying it, the nett additional cost is guaranteed to be significantly greater than zero...

I wouldn't have a problem with this payment in and of itself but the galling thing is that it is only a small part of a large number of "additional payments" (perks, pension, expenses, allowances etc) enjoyed by our TDs. They get paid too much anyway (cf comparison to MPs)...

Another rubbish article in a rubbish newspaper.

Yes, sensationalist & populist stuff from the Indo, quelle surprise.

ednwireland

i will ignore anything this gov does or says until there is an across the board pay cut of at least 30% for the dail and seanad (and by linkage eu salaries), how these muppets think they should be paid more than any other public representatives (in europe) is beyond me. in a time when the gov is talking about living beyond its means any public sector increases should be off the the table.

i predict april 7th will be massive tax hikes for paye workers, huge cuts in front line public services instead of trying to sort the mess they have created. huge hits on all the regulars drink, vat, petrol, fags. oh and a carbon tax just to improve our competitiveness (sarcasm)

these people are so out of their depth and so desperate to try and get somewhere to a point at the next election where they can just throw money around its unbeleivable.

i am really sick to death of the lot of money grabbing - anything else written here would probably get me a ban so i'll stop - sorry fuming must go away and calm down.

peasant

Whatever about the "quality" of the journalism, the power of the symbolism of this can not, no, must not be ignored.

Here we are, being softened up for the most painful emergency budget we have ever seen ...there will be massive cuts in services and take home pay, all of us are asked to carry the burden, yet Brian Lenihan sees no reason to curtail this pay increase at this time?

**** him !

Him and every single other useless, clueless, self centred waster up in the dail.

If this isn't the straw that breaks the camels back, then I don't know what is.

holly1

Have the government taken any pay cuts.

Raiser

You will ignore them? Great post except for that bit!..... Why not throw in a sulk and a scowl too?!?

Personally I'd rather send Sean Fitzpatrick on a 3 week holiday to Disneyland at my expense than see these w@nkers get anything but a pay cut. FFS if you actually halved their wages then they'd still be seriously overpaid.

Paul Gogarty? Although the Green Party involvement is probably the low ebb if this fcuking moron happened to also be a Banker, a Bishop and a Mass Murderer then he would finally tick all of the boxes in my opinion.

- Nice little earner for the guy though......

P. Breathnach

peasant wrote: »

... If this isn't the straw that breaks the camels back, then I don't know what is.

Don't look to camels for your metaphor. Try sheep: one jumps when going through a gateway, and all the others follow, jumping in the same place.

This long-service increment has been a feature of the payment of political representatives for (okay, let's have more animals) donkey's years -- the donkey being McCreevy.

Now concentrate on this point: it's a detail, a relatively small detail. If a lot of energy is expended on getting excited about approximately 3% of an Oireachtas member's pay, or perhaps 1.5% of all payments to that member, then we are taking our eye off the ball.

is_that_so

Yet more outrage and more airtime for Fionnan Sheehan. I am still unconvinced the man is any good as a political correspondent. I also agree that the longer serving should get a little bit more. An awful lot of TDs already get this anyway.
The timing is unfortunate when there are more pressing problems like that Green man of conscience Paul Gogarty getting €20K to be chairman of a committee or sitting TDs getting a pension or whether we need 166 of them there in the first place. This kind of thing also feeds the infantile tantrums that many of us seem to succumb to any time anything about politicians "appears".

peasant

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Now concentrate on this point: it's a detail, a relatively small detail. If a lot of energy is expended on getting excited about approximately 3% of an Oireachtas member's pay, or perhaps 1.5% of all payments to that member, then we are taking our eye off the ball.

It is a matter of principle.

Those people that are getting the increase and those that are allowing the increase to go ahead as usual are the same people that:

A) were at the helm and watched agog while this country circled ever faster ever closer to the drain and did nothing

are now telling us that it's hard times out there and everyone needs to do their bit and then some ...while they pocket an increase.

So the ship is finally down the drain and sinking, but the only ones getting life vests are the crew? And they expect the passengers to throw them?

**** 'em ..is all I can say to that.

newname

Therefore, the nett additional cost of this measure will always be zero over the longer term.

So it would be ok to lay off some people from the public service and increase the wages for the remaining staff claiming the net effect would be zero? I don't think so.

Its savings we need to be making and setting the right example. This government is about to hit the people very hard in a supplementry budget. Bringing the low paid back into the tax system and screwing the rest for more and more tax.
The political classes need a major reduction in income. The public won't accept talk of a zero sum effect on the overall purse.

P. Breathnach

peasant wrote: »

It is a matter of principle.

Those people that are getting the increase and those that are allowing the increase to go ahead as usual are the same people that:

A) were at the helm and watched agog while this country circled ever faster ever closer to the drain and did nothing

are now telling us that it's hard times out there and everyone needs to do their bit and then some ...while they pocket an increase...

What you are setting out is not a principle. Were it a principle, then you should be complaining about all those political representatives who already are in receipt of the long-service increments.

peasant

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Were it a principle, then you should be complaining about all those political representatives who already are in receipt of the long-service increments.

That was then, this is now.

First, stop any new long-service payments from happening, then worry about the existing ones.

The attitude of "sure, we've always done it like that" is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place.

Change has to start somewhere.
If you want to remove a large pile of steaming dung, you have to start shovelling at some point ...you can't just stand there and complain about the stench and the scale of the task forever. Dig in! Shovel by shovel.


And don't tell me that in the grand scheme of the mess we're in these small amounts don't matter ...because they do.

26 x 3000 + 12 x 2200 = 104.400 Euro per annum.

That is more than the gross cost of two qualified nurses for example.
Those might just be the two nurse jobs that will be cut at your local hospital, the same two nurse jobs that may make a difference over your life or death when you arrive at your local hospital with a heart attack only to find them short staffed and you get carted to another hospital and die on the way.

Not so small a detail now, is it, when you look at it that way

yop

So even though the rest of us are losing our jobs or taking pay cuts its alright to give an increase to the men who aided in getting this country into the fu**ed up state it is in???
Where is the logic in that?? My Dad is in his job for 14 years, so does he deserve an increase because they dont have to hire anyone else to do it for him?? No they give him a pay cut...

Would the Fine Failers please stand up *not that they need to on this thread*

thomasj

Throw this in for good measure. were in a crisis in this country and are meant to have a mini budget coming up on the 7th april

From Breaking news

The Government has come under opposition attack in the Dáil this morning for taking a parliamentary break of almost two weeks for St Patrick's Day.

The Government has voted through a motion endorsing a 12-day break from this evening until Tuesday, March 24.

Speaking in the House, Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny said there was no reason why TDs couldn't return next Wednesday and Thursday.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/eyaucweykfmh/

gandalf

The whole structure of government from the Dail, Seanad and the Public Services need to be brought up the date with the 20th century. If these people expect us to take what they are billing as a tougher mini budget than people expect then they had better lead from the front.

This increase should be abolished and a cut of 30% be implemented across the all the representatives to reflect the seriousness of the current economic situation. How can they expect people to take having more of their take home pay being removed from them when it appears the people in power are not willing to share the pain?

Liam Byrne

To answer the OP's question : they can't justify this, but they don't have to.

sparklepants wrote: »

AIn my view, there is merit in a system where the longer-serving members get paid a little more (just 3%) than the new guys. That money is saved every time a TD sitting for more than 7 years loses his seat. Therefore, the nett additional cost of this measure will always be zero over the longer term.

Sorry, but that's bull****......TD's dont "lose" their seat; they're fired by us if they don't make an impact.

Yes, there are other jobs in which the longer you're there the more you get paid, but those don't start at 100K and don't have unvouched "expenses", or paying extra for actually turning up at work!

People are being told "we've no money" by these scum - if we haven't, we don't need them stuffung their already-fat wallets while they swan off for TWELVE DAYS while the rest of us get 4 day's off for the Bank Holiday....OK, so a few of them are going abroad to promote Ireland, but the rest of them should be at work.

It's enough to make even the most right-minded person want to evade tax! :mad:

is_that_so

peasant wrote: »

That was then, this is now.

First, stop any new long-service payments from happening, then worry about the existing ones.

The attitude of "sure, we've always done it like that" is exactly what got us into this mess in the first place.

Change has to start somewhere.
If you want to remove a large pile of steaming dung, you have to start shovelling at some point ...you can't just stand there and complain about the stench and the scale of the task forever. Dig in! Shovel by shovel.


And don't tell me that in the grand scheme of the mess we're in these small amounts don't matter ...because they do.

26 x 3000 + 12 x 2200 = 104.400 Euro per annum.

That is more than the gross cost of two qualified nurses for example.
Those might just be the two nurse jobs that will be cut at your local hospital, the same two nurse jobs that may make a difference over your life or death when you arrive at your local hospital with a heart attack only to find them short staffed and you get carted to another hospital and die on the way.

Not so small a detail now, is it, when you look at it that way

Change does need to happen but if we don't plug the dyke this scattergun approach to change will not help us at all. "Fixing" this in the absence of an overall plan is pure PR patching.

I would be just as happy to see the current government dispatched but I do accept one thing they say. This will all take a long time to fix.

Indicidentally your two nurses would be going into a health service with a 10% absenteeism rate so having an extra two there would not necessarily do much good anyway.

My point is that there are no simple stand-alone answers and much as I can see the principle you are arguing there are many, many others who are using it as a justification for not accepting cuts.

yop wrote: »

So even though the rest of us are losing our jobs or taking pay cuts its alright to give an increase to the men who aided in getting this country into the fu**ed up state it is in???
Where is the logic in that?? My Dad is in his job for 14 years, so does he deserve an increase because they dont have to hire anyone else to do it for him?? No they give him a pay cut...

Indeed there are many stories of this nature and this is the one thing bad times is guaranteed to throw up; that old internecine blame game and the unseemly jostling to claim monopoly on the misery.

One thing I will say is that we have a right to expect quality from our politicians. To do that there must be an appropriate financial reward. Otherwise we end up criticising the lack of talent ,that old peanuts -monkeys argument.
What has become clear is that some of the systems they use/exploit are in dire need of review and proper oversight.

nesf

gandalf wrote: »

The whole structure of government from the Dail, Seanad and the Public Services need to be brought up the date with the 20th century. If these people expect us to take what they are billing as a tougher mini budget than people expect then they had better lead from the front.

Ah but that'd require more cop on than the average politician in this country (of all stripes) would be willing to come up with. If FG and Labour jointly declared a 30% pay cut FF would be forced into following but no, they'll not do anything like that. Much easier to just complain about FF not taking one and pocket the cash.

Liam Byrne

is_that_so wrote: »

One thing I will say is that we expect quality from our politicians. To do that there must be an appropriate financial reward. Otherwise we end up criticising the lack of talent ,that old peanuts -monkeys argument.

100K + unvouched expenses + being paid to turn up at work + 12 days off for a Bank Holiday + a month off at Christmas + a huge "summer" break is not peanuts!

And after this shower I don't think ANYONE expects quality from our politicians! :mad:

is_that_so

Liam Byrne wrote: »

100K + unvouched expenses + being paid to turn up at work + 12 days off for a Bank Holiday + a month off at Christmas + a huge "summer" break is not peanuts!

And after this shower I don't think ANYONE expects quality from our politicians! :mad:

I don't think anyone will argue with the serious flaws in the system.
My point is that we have a right to expect the best from them and that requires appropriate payment to "attract" the right calibre although these days politicians of real quality are in a very small minority. Even though we may may not select them to run we do vote them in.

thomasj

Eddie hobbs opinion

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/we-are-facing-long-recovery-warns-hobbs-1670376.html

FINANCE expert Eddie Hobbs believes the global economy is on the verge of recovery -- but Ireland will remain in the doldrums for some time to come.

The financial guru believes "the green shoots" of a recovery can be seen internationally, following six months of turmoil.

But he dashed hopes that Ireland will be an immediate beneficiary of any upturn, saying we're still on a downward spiral.

"The leading indicators (internationally) are beginning to show some green shoots but they're early and very fragile," the Rip-off Republic star said, pointing to increased inter-- bank lending as an example.

The corporate markets are also beginning to normalise.

He said "the heart attack" that was the collapse of investment giant Lehman Brothers was just six months ago and the response of flooding money into the markets is only now taking effect.

An upturn in the global economy is a realistic prospect for the second half of 2009, while 2.5pc to 3pc growth could be achieved next year, he added.

But that's where the good news ends for Ireland which is suffering from a "dearth of political and economic leadership".

"The difficulty is that the people leading this country are the people responsible for getting us into this mess. We can't get out of it without new leadership."Suicidal

"Such is the scale of the bubble burst in Ireland and the fall in the standard of living, the likelihood is that we will lag in recession longer than most. The problem is that the cost of running the country is way too high. An awful lot of how fast we come out of this is directly related to the political will.

"The global upturn will not take away the suicidal policies we followed for the five years of the last Government. It will not take away the fact that middle class wealth has been decimated," Mr Hobbs warned.

Wile E. Coyote

is_that_so wrote: »

One thing I will say is that we expect quality from our politicians. To do that there must be an appropriate financial reward. Otherwise we end up criticising the lack of talent ,that old peanuts -monkeys argument.

Have you spent your day drinking in the Dail bar??? An appropriate financial reward? They've made a mess of this country, squandered billions of our money and they get over €100,000 a year plus all the other expenses etc. How much would we actually have to pay them to do a half decent job?

rmf

So what can we do to let them know that we are not going to stand for it - to me they know their days are numbered so they are taking the country for all they can get....

Public Opinion doesn't seem to matter to them
No wonder Greece exploded in civil unrest... how many cuts to ordinary people will it take for it to happen here?

A Frustrated PAYE Worker:mad:

peasant

is_that_so wrote: »

Change does need to happen but if we don't plug the dyke this scattergun approach to change will not help us at all. "Fixing" this in the absence of an overall plan is pure PR patching.

What class of idiot do you take me for?

Do you honestly think that I believe that not granting this pay rise would make a blind bit of difference to the financial desaster we find ourselves in?

You could't be that condescending, could you?


The real issue actually is what you call "PR patching". Our glorious minister of finance could have shown today that he has indeed a modicum of leadership and grasp of the situation. While everybody is busy shivering in angst ridden anticipation of the looming emergency budget, he could have gone out and stated that he (and all of our so called political representatives) are willing to lead by example. He could have taken the bull by the horns and taken this routine payrise and simply slashed it in a big PR flurry ... Ryanair style, if needs be.

Instead he sits there, staring blankly ahead stating that he sees no reason not to pay this at this time ...thus blatantly declaring to the voting cattle (yet again) that he couldn't give two flying eff's about them as long as himself and his cronies are alright.

A hundred k up or down really doesn't make a difference ...the attitude with which this approached (or not as is the case) however tells a story that just fills me with despair.

The man is tasked with moving mountains and he can't even kick a pebble.

is_that_so

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

Have you spent your day drinking in the Dail bar??? An appropriate financial reward? They've made a mess of this country, squandered billions of our money and they get over €100,000 a year plus all the other expenses etc. How much would we actually have to pay them to do a half decent job?

Therein lies the quandary. What is "appropriate"? The expenses system is certainly not. Pensions of any kind for sitting TDs is not. Holding jobs open for extended periods is not appropriate. Part of that "appropriate remuneration" also means a TD having the wherewithal to serve their constituents. And that usually means offices, staff, clinics and all the rest of the associated costs. That's where the attraction needs to be. If a TD gets say €70k and finds it costs €50K to be a good TD why would they be bothered? But the question is how to get the balance right.
In answer to your question I would reduce TDs salaries a further 10%, scrap all the current expenses systems and introduce a more controlled expenses system with proper oversight and fines for abuse.

yop

is_that_so wrote: »

One thing I will say is that we have a right to expect quality from our politicians. To do that there must be an appropriate financial reward. Otherwise we end up criticising the lack of talent ,that old peanuts -monkeys argument.

I totally agree, pay peanuts get monkeys, but we are paying one of the or the highest renumeration to our politicians in Europ but all we have seen is incompetence and "oh we didnt realise it was that bad" bull*hit and definately not got one bit of quality.
For been so well paid they have fu**ed the country, its simple as.

3k to a person getting 100k per year is nothing, give it to someone on the dole then its a serious lump of money. The dont need it and dont deserve it.

yop

is_that_so wrote: »

In answer to your question I would reduce TDs salaries a further 10%, scrap all the current expenses systems and introduce a more controlled expenses system with proper oversight and fines for abuse.

Perfect suggestion, possibly even a 25% cut, but with regards the expenses u have it spot on.

CJhaughey

is_that_so wrote: »

In answer to your question I would reduce TDs salaries a further 10%, scrap all the current expenses systems and introduce a more controlled expenses system with proper oversight and fines for abuse.

Indeed, why do they not simply do away with unvouched expenses and move to a vouched system?
I am getting angry with the way that the Public service are being demonised and yet the politicians are not taking any pain.
Do as I say, not do as I do won't wash for long.
How long before the first angry mob shows up at the Dail with burning torches?
Greece has already seen it and it ain't pretty.
Don't forget the ones tasked with protecting the Dail are also the ones taking punishment from the Gov't.