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Karl Marx Shrugged?

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    #122
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I disagree with using examples of a system that has the state interfering as examples of the free market working while simultaneously attributing any failure of a business that is seen as free market by the people to the little meddling the state did in that area (i.e. relaxed bank regulation). You need examples from an actual system in which the state does not interfere. If one does not exist, may I suggest it does not exist for a reason.


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    #123
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #124
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Microsoft, the state has interfered several times with Microsoft and it has an affect on their ability to invest in the market and their position in the market.

    It is not a free market example IMO because I believe state intervention primarily by the European Commission has had a significant effect in removing their dominant market position.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_antitrust_case

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_litigation#February_2008_Fine


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    #125
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #126
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I disagree, do you know much about Microsoft's company history and how they acquired their dominant market position?


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    #127
    DadaKopf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,731 ✭✭✭DadaKopf


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    This is not what has happened in the real world. Where markets have not been regulated in this way, monopolies and cartels have formed.


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    #128
    cavedave
    Registered Users Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭cavedave


    Colbert on Rand
    DadaKopf

    This is not what has happened in the real world. Where markets have not been regulated in this way, monopolies and cartels have formed.

    And pretty much by definition whenever there is government intervention a monopoly forms. Why is there only one monopoly commision? Because there is only one monopolistic government that provides all state provisions.


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    #129
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #130
    Ruskie4Rent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,088 ✭✭✭Ruskie4Rent


    HL wrote: »
    I haven't read any of Ayn Rands books so I can't have an opinion on them. It has however always cracked me up that the only two people I know who are mad into her are complete ****. One of them is a flash, arrogant git with a penchant for doing runners on his wife and kids, and then crawling back a few weeks/months later only to do it all again, and the other is a vile little geek who prides himself on how nasty and backstabbing he is. One time we got him to pick up a takeaway for us and when he got back it quickly became apparent that he'd exaggerated the price of everything to pocket some money himself.He was totally unapolegetic and seemed to expect us to be impressed with his cunning. I don't mean for this to be a reflection on Ayn Rand or her works, and I know plenty of lefties that are ****, but maybe her theories do provide a self-justifying philosophical veneer to bad people. Mainly though I just think it's funny.
    Nah, it's more that people who want to be pricks will generally find something to justify it with, be it Rand or whatever.
    I agree. Pricks will always be pricks but, like HL, I have also met people who've read atlas shruged and found them to be fairly douchey.
    It kind of gives pricks licence to not feel remourseful about being pricks.


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    #131
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    You don't find it ironic that the biggest threat to Microsoft's market dominance comes from the Free Software movement?


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    #132
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    You don't find it ironic that the biggest threat to Microsoft's market dominance comes from the Free Software movement?

    Free Software (Open Source) is neither socialist, nor libertarian.

    It is certainly not taking down The Man, as The Man is getting free labour.


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    #133
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    asdasd wrote: »
    Free Software (Open Source) is neither socialist, nor libertarian.
    It most certainly isn't objectivist.


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    #134
    Dar
    Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭Dar


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You don't find it ironic that the biggest threat to Microsoft's market dominance comes from the Free Software movement?

    Not really. Software isn't a limited resource. Once it's been written it can be copied indefinitely. The great thing about the free software movement it's actually possible for everyone to get their fair share of the collective effort. Someone who uses free software but doesn't contribute isn't a drain on the people who do. The same is not true of wealth in general.


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    #135
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Dar wrote: »
    Not really. Software isn't a limited resource. Once it's been written it can be copied indefinitely. The great thing about the free software movement it's actually possible for everyone to get their fair share of the collective effort. Someone who uses free software but doesn't contribute isn't a drain on the people who do. The same is not true of wealth in general.

    Bandwidth isn't free though.


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    #136
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,804 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Dar wrote: »
    Software isn't a limited resource.
    A software developer's time is.


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    #137
    Dar
    Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭Dar


    nesf wrote: »
    Bandwidth isn't free though.

    And? I'd be very surprised if any significant portion of the hosting fees for free software are paid for through government taxes. IIRC, kernal.org is funded mostly by IBM and the likes.


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    #138
    Dar
    Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭Dar


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    A software developer's time is.

    And most open source developers get paid for their time, or do it for their own satisfaction.

    Is there a point here?


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    #139
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Dar wrote: »
    And? I'd be very surprised if any significant portion of the hosting fees for free software are paid for through government taxes. IIRC, kernal.org is funded mostly by IBM and the likes.

    It's more what oscarBravo is getting at. Once the software is written in can be copied without loss of quality, this is true. The limited resources are the coder's time and the bandwidth/whatever needed to distribute it.

    It's not as simple as software being "free".


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    #140
    Dar
    Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭Dar


    nesf wrote: »
    It's more what oscarBravo is getting at. Once the software is written in can be copied without loss of quality, this is true. The limited resources are the coder's time and the bandwidth/whatever needed to distribute it.

    It's not as simple as software being "free".

    And like I said, most open source is funded by private business and not through taxes.


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    #141
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Dar wrote: »
    And like I said, most open source is funded by private business and not through taxes.

    Ok, I thought you were making a different point.


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    #142
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Dar wrote: »
    And like I said, most open source is funded by private business and not through taxes.

    Most Open Source is probably funded by donations, only the larger projects get funded by private business.


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    #143
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #144
    Dar
    Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭Dar


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Your MacBook is running OSX which uses a lot of open source code. Free Software ftw.


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    #145
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #146
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #147
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Since the source code has to be in the public domain, anyone can compile it free of charge without infringing on a license and release the binary free of charge though hence the increase in community edition software.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    That is very distro dependant. Ubuntu (not Kbuntu) is ready for the average user and easier to use than Windows. My 60 year old father uses it and prefers it to windows and all his peripherals work with it.

    Of course it has to use proprietary code to do this which I guess is the point.

    Free software isn't much use without proprietary and proprietary isn't much use without the free software in many cases.

    Kind of like the state and the market :P (He didn't :eek:)


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    #148
    Dar
    Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭Dar


    The important this is that Free Software is mostly about free as in Freedom, not free as in beer. It works because in the software development world there is no tragedy of the commons - it doesn't matter if millions of people download and use the software because they do not place an economic hardship upon those that do. It's very much an exception, and not a particularly good counter-point to objectivism.


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    #149
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #150
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Dar wrote: »
    The important this is that Free Software is mostly about free as in Freedom, not free as in beer. It works because in the software development world there is no tragedy of the commons - it doesn't matter if millions of people download and use the software because they do not place an economic hardship upon those that do. It's very much an exception, and not a particularly good counter-point to objectivism.

    There is free music and other similar initiatives starting up, it is not limited to software.

    The idea of free software has existed for years. A handyman putting up a shelf for a neighbour because they know how and know the other person does not know how and not charging them because they know them and don't want to.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.


    It is both in this case. He writes the software because he needs to or because he wants to work on a project to develop his skills.

    However the release of it under a free license prevents it from being a self-interest act. That is entirely altruism. It can't be anything else. He/she could put it up on another site and charge a fee for it and it wouldn't take any extra effort on their part but he/she doesn't.


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    #151
    Dar
    Registered Users Posts: 763 ✭✭✭Dar


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I wouldn't consider it altruism - free software developers do get something in return. Many get paid for the work they do, the others do it from a sense of personal satisfaction.


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