3rd Level fees a consideration by Fianna Fail

Pride Fighter · 12-03-2009 4:50pm #1

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0312/fees.html

Looks like the jig is up for us, this government want us to pay to pursue an education. The government must not want high quality graduates who are employable and will drive our economy onward when we are out of the current recession.

KeyLimePie · 12-03-2009 5:48pm

Nope

If you're in college already, like I assume you are, You won't be hit by fees, he said it in the examiner the other day

however if you're like me and took a year out before pursuing college, you're just praying for fees to be brought in the year after

Tayto2000 · 12-03-2009 5:49pm

Pride Fighter wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0312/fees.html

Looks like the jig is up for us, this government want us to pay to pursue an education. The government must not want high quality graduates who are employable and will drive our economy onward when we are out of the current recession.

They didn't dig us out in the 80s, the bastards all fled the country instead :pac:

33% God · 12-03-2009 7:39pm

Tayto2000 wrote: »

They didn't dig us out in the 80s, the bastards all fled the country instead :pac:

If fees come in I will definitely leave for the USA after my degree.

Tayto2000 · 12-03-2009 7:48pm

33% God wrote: »

If fees come in I will definitely leave for the USA after my degree.

Trouble is, this time the US and UK aren't much better... Canada is pretty hot with Irish grads right now though.

12-03-2009 8:10pm

Please tell me that there are at least some other reasonable people in UCD who understand what is going on around them?

The Govt needs to CUT spending and RAISE taxes. They NEED money.

To those saying they'd go to USA after Degree when fees are brough in, spare a thought for all those American students who've spent 20+ thousand a year on college, and then have to meet you guys just arriving over to compete with them for a job.

33% God · 12-03-2009 8:15pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Please tell me that there are at least some other reasonable people in UCD who understand what is going on around them?

The Govt needs to CUT spending and RAISE taxes. They NEED money.

To those saying they'd go to USA after Degree when fees are brough in, spare a thought for all those American students who've spent 20+ thousand a year on college, and then have to meet you guys just arriving over to compete with them for a job.

It's the American government's business what immigration laws they apply. I'm a citizen so I'm as entitled to live and work there as any American.

I know exactly what's going on around me. I'd rather see the unfair tax system reformed before I get kicked out of University for not being wealthy enough.
It's particularly annoying after hearing this on the news "Many TDs to get €3,000 pay hike in coming months" http://www.examiner.ie/breaking/ireland/eyaucweyausn/

Tom65 · 12-03-2009 8:45pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Please tell me that there are at least some other reasonable people in UCD who understand what is going on around them?

The Govt needs to CUT spending and RAISE taxes. They NEED money.

To those saying they'd go to USA after Degree when fees are brough in, spare a thought for all those American students who've spent 20+ thousand a year on college, and then have to meet you guys just arriving over to compete with them for a job.

What about the last 10/15 years of prosperity, when the government refused to improve spending on education? Our spending was well below the OECD average, and the government waved "free fees" as an excuse. In most western European countries, fees are not even an issue. I know the government needs money, but do you really think their system of fees will be fair? Look at the grants system. I'm not even strictly anti-fees, but Christ look around Europe. In Sweden the students have no fees and are given €250 a month for going to college. Our education system is terrible. It's barely registered on the government's 'to do' list for the last decade and now things have turned to crap it's first on their list. Fees here originally touted for those whose parents earn over €100,000. Really, how much is that going to bring?

Look at what Bat O'Keefe is saying:

Batt O'Keeffe is preparing a report for Cabinet on the issue and said an increase in student participation at third-level has implications for the Exchequer.

...

He said the vast majority of prefabs are state-of-the-art facilities and not as rundown as has been suggested.

How many "state of the art" prefabs do you know of?

I'm sorry to vent like this, and everyone knows how bad the public finances are, but I am tired of living here with Germans, French and Swedes, watching as they pay (at most) a couple of hundred euro a year and there's no question of fees. Meanwhile, as trouble looms our own government jumps out with a knife and starts slashing in all the easiest and most obvious places.

12-03-2009 8:56pm

It's usually not a good idea to compare Ireland with the Scandinavian countries.

12-03-2009 9:27pm

Tom65 wrote: »

What about the last 10/15 years of prosperity, when the government refused to improve spending on education? Our spending was well below the OECD average, and the government waved "free fees" as an excuse.

I don't wish to sound cynical but these days are gone. Forget about them. Move on. The past cannot be used as an excuse for what should be done now.

Tom65 wrote: »

In most western European countries, fees are not even an issue. I know the government needs money, but do you really think their system of fees will be fair?

nope, not a hope to be honest. But life's rarely fair. Again, incredibly cynical I know. But you have to take into account the fact that we are in a crisis here. If the IMF take over, the taxes that we will be forced to pay will far outweigh the costs of 3/4years of education over the course of your lifetimes earnings.

Tom65 wrote: »

Look at the grants system. I'm not even strictly anti-fees, but Christ look around Europe.In Sweden the students have no fees and are given €250 a month for going to college. Our education system is terrible

UK devaluing their currency in an attempt to stay afloat. Iceland Bankrupt. Norway lost 90bn euro of its pensions fund over the last 1 year. Europe is not an idea place to be these days, and its going to get worse before it gets better.

Tom65 wrote: »

. It's barely registered on the government's 'to do' list for the last decade and now things have turned to crap it's first on their list. Fees here originally touted for those whose parents earn over €100,000. Really, how much is that going to bring?
Look at what Bat O'Keefe is saying:

How many "state of the art" prefabs do you know of?

I'm sorry to vent like this, and everyone knows how bad the public finances are, but I am tired of living here with Germans, French and Swedes, watching as they pay (at most) a couple of hundred euro a year and there's no question of fees. Meanwhile, as trouble looms our own government jumps out with a knife and starts slashing in all the easiest and most obvious places.

TAXES...

you can either pay fees at the time you need the services. Or you can pay taxes your entire life even if you didn't go!

______________

You seem quite passionate about this, and I applaud that. In a normal situation, I'd never even think about advocating the introduction of fees. Unfortunately, we are all going to have to look at the bigger picture here. Fees, in some shape or form, are going to have to be introduced as the government struggles to raise funds by cutting expenditure that is not absolutely necessary to our existence as a country.

I apologise for the cynicism and harshness, but sometimes it feels as if people are in a bubble!

33% God · 12-03-2009 9:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

you can either pay fees at the time you need the services.

Plenty of us can't.

Tom65 · 12-03-2009 9:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

You seem quite passionate about this, and I applaud that. In a normal situation, I'd never even think about advocating the introduction of fees. Unfortunately, we are all going to have to look at the bigger picture here. Fees, in some shape or form, are going to have to be introduced as the government struggles to raise funds by cutting expenditure that is not absolutely necessary to our existence as a country.

I apologise for the cynicism and harshness, but sometimes it feels as if people are in a bubble!

Here's the thing: I'm not even anti-fees. I understand that we might need them. I'm just angry that it's come to this, and that the government barely seems to value education. In fact, I'd consider myself to be of the same opinion as you, I would never normally go along with the reintroduction of fees, but considering the crisis we're in it might necessary. It just feels like we've missed a massive opportunity in the last ten years, and now, again, the government is thinking purely short term.

Believe me, I'm the one the most cynical people you're likely to meet, and I understand the severity of the financial crisis. I'm just profoundly frustrated by our government's attitude to education.

KeyLimePie · 12-03-2009 10:45pm

Fee's are BAD !!

I don't like the idea of having 20,000 euro worth of debt to deal with when i finish my degree, and my parents can hardly afford to pay for it !!

Fee's will stop people going to college and if it prevents ONE single person from getting a degree the goverment should be ashamed of themselves

12-03-2009 10:55pm

KeyLimePie wrote: »

Fee's are BAD !!

I don't like the idea of having 20,000 euro worth of debt to deal with when i finish my degree, and my parents can hardly afford to pay for it !!

Fee's will stop people going to college and if it prevents ONE single person from getting a degree the goverment should be ashamed of themselves

"Bubble"

Look at it from this perspective. The government pays doctors wages. If the government stop paying fees, they can (this is not how it works though) use the money they used to pay for our fees towards saving lives.

If the reintroduction of fees meant we'd have a better health service, the government would be nuts not to do it.

This is the kind of view you get from being in a bubble....

KeyLimePie · 12-03-2009 11:33pm

Deleted User wrote: »

"Bubble"

Look at it from this perspective. The government pays doctors wages. If the government stop paying fees, they can (this is not how it works though) use the money they used to pay for our fees towards saving lives.

If the reintroduction of fees meant we'd have a better health service, the government would be nuts not to do it.

This is the kind of view you get from being in a bubble....

Fees cost the goverment 300million a year, .66% of the irish governments total expenditure, it'll do more harm that good to cut it

And I'm NOT in a bubble

I've refrained from getting into spats about the government's performance until now

Breezer · 13-03-2009 12:25am

Deleted User wrote: »

The government pays doctors wages. If the government stop paying fees, they can (this is not how it works though) use the money they used to pay for our fees towards saving lives.

When you negate your own argument before you even make it, it loses some weight.

Deleted User wrote: »

you can either pay fees at the time you need the services. Or you can pay taxes your entire life even if you didn't go!

Now there's an idea. I'd much rather pay higher tax and have services available as and when I need them. And from what I've seen and heard lately, a lot of people are with me on that one. The 'low tax, small government, privatise everything' philosophy died with the PDs (or did they die with it?) I sincerely hope it stays dead. What exactly do we have to show for our years of personal wealth generation?

13-03-2009 12:44am

Breezer wrote: »

When you negate your own argument before you even make it, it loses some weight.

I notice you didn't understand my post then.

"
"Bubble"

Look at it from this perspective. The government pays doctors wages. If the government stop paying fees, they can (this is not how it works though) use the money they used to pay for our fees towards saving lives.

If the reintroduction of fees meant we'd have a better health service, the government would be nuts not to do it.

This is the kind of view you get from being in a bubble.... "

A one sided look, without recognising the overall picture is what I was trying to highlight.

Also, with reference to complaints about the Govt, nobody I've ever voted for has ever been elected, I'm not pro-current govt by ANY means or measure.

Unfortunately, the people in charge are the people in charge, and we're going to have to listen!

freshtodeath · 13-03-2009 1:49am

KeyLimePie wrote: »

Nope
If you're in college already, like I assume you are, You won't be hit by fees, he said it in the examiner the other day

however if you're like me and took a year out before pursuing college, you're just praying for fees to be brought in the year after

Sorry to interrupt guys, but is this what's going to happen? I was always though they would apply to everyone, even those already in college?

Breezer · 13-03-2009 2:01am

Deleted User wrote: »

I notice you didn't understand my post then.

No, I didn't understand it. It was broken up and punctuated rather strangely, making this difficult. I do see what you were getting at now, thank you for the clarification.

Unfortunately, the people in charge are the people in charge, and we're going to have to listen!

That's ridiculous. In a democracy, the people are in charge. We do not simply have to listen. We can fight decisions we don't agree with all the way, and if they are implemented, we can (eventually) remove the incumbents from office and put someone else in there. We can hold this threat over the government in order to influence its decisions.

Sometimes, what the people want is at odds with what will ultimately be of greatest benefit, but that's democracy. For the record, I don't think this is one of those times.

freshtodeath wrote: »

Sorry to interrupt guys, but is this what's going to happen? I was always though they would apply to everyone, even those already in college?

O'Keeffe made noises to that effect the other day, but nothing is set in stone yet. And to be honest, even when things are set in stone, it's quite possible that the government will simply find a new stone to set things in differently at a later date. Nothing can be taken for granted at the moment.

33% God · 13-03-2009 2:44am

Deleted User wrote: »

I notice you didn't understand my post then.

"
"Bubble"

Look at it from this perspective. The government pays doctors wages. If the government stop paying fees, they can (this is not how it works though) use the money they used to pay for our fees towards saving lives.

If the reintroduction of fees meant we'd have a better health service, the government would be nuts not to do it.

This is the kind of view you get from being in a bubble.... "

A one sided look, without recognising the overall picture is what I was trying to highlight.

Also, with reference to complaints about the Govt, nobody I've ever voted for has ever been elected, I'm not pro-current govt by ANY means or measure.

Unfortunately, the people in charge are the people in charge, and we're going to have to listen!

Rather than have an extra 300million a year (less than 1% of expenditure) go to the health service to be squandered in co-location or some other ridiculous unpopular endeavour I'd rather know that the doctor who was treating me was the guy who desperately wanted to be a doctor and worked his ass off and was the smartest guy available, rather than the guy who could afford to pay the fees for the lengthy, expensive course.

dyl10 · 13-03-2009 3:13am

Deleted User wrote: »

Unfortunately, the people in charge are the people in charge, and we're going to have to listen!

I'm sorry I read your post now, it was half credible up until that

:D:pac:

KeyLimePie · 14-03-2009 12:25am

freshtodeath wrote: »

Sorry to interrupt guys, but is this what's going to happen? I was always though they would apply to everyone, even those already in college?

I read in the examiner the other day with Batt O'Keefe saying that it would be unfair for the people already in college to pay fees so that means that ye're safe

Deleted User wrote: »

I notice you didn't understand my post then.

"
"Bubble"

Look at it from this perspective. The government pays doctors wages. If the government stop paying fees, they can (this is not how it works though) use the money they used to pay for our fees towards saving lives.

If the reintroduction of fees meant we'd have a better health service, the government would be nuts not to do it.

This is the kind of view you get from being in a bubble.... "

A one sided look, without recognising the overall picture is what I was trying to highlight.

Also, with reference to complaints about the Govt, nobody I've ever voted for has ever been elected, I'm not pro-current govt by ANY means or measure.

Unfortunately, the people in charge are the people in charge, and we're going to have to listen!

I do not have a one sided view, but in this current economic climate it would be stupid to get rid of free fees !

Go and tell and the 15,000 people who marched in dublin against fees that they'll just have to put up with it and they've a one sided view and see what reaction you get

El Che · 14-03-2009 12:32am

Disgraceful, so much for "cherishing all the children of the nation equally". The Publican Party marches onward to oblivian.

14-03-2009 2:26pm

KeyLimePie wrote: »

I read in the examiner the other day with Batt O'Keefe saying that it would be unfair for the people already in college to pay fees so that means that ye're safe

I do not have a one sided view, but in this current economic climate it would be stupid to get rid of free fees !

Go and tell and the 15,000 people who marched in dublin against fees that they'll just have to put up with it and they've a one sided view and see what reaction you get

Please explain your reasoning for this sentence? I'm not pro-fees, I'm definitely not pro government, but what I am is anti-country going bankrupt.

With regard to the 15,000 who marched. I'd be far more fearful of the hundreds of thousands of Unemployed
CSO statistics
whom the government will struggle to continue paying Jobseeker's allowance to as we delve further and further into money problems.

Unfortunately, in times of hardship, you make difficult choices and re prioritise a lot of things, and unfortunately for us students, we are not as important as we'd like to think.

Brimmy · 14-03-2009 4:02pm

I think he means that by limiting the amount of people with degrees it will be harder to attract foreign investment and prolong the recession if anything.

I understand the need for Fees but I have a feeling that if they're implemented now they'll be permanent and grow increasingly expensive each year.

14-03-2009 5:07pm

Breezer wrote: »

Now there's an idea. I'd much rather pay higher tax and have services available as and when I need them.

Apologies for bringing this back, but I only just saw it now. In times such as these, with growing unemployment, this cannot work.

Consider emigration, the "brain drain" so to speak, essentially Free Fees are a Loan from the government to you, in return for taxes you will pay for the remainder of your working life. But, with increasing emigration and the outflow of graduates, these loans are never paid.

The only way for this system to work properly (as it has thus far), is for there to be reasons and opportunities for the graduates to stay within Ireland, and pay their taxes here. This is why students from outside the EU are to pay fees, as they are far more likely to return to their home countries, and pay the "loan" they would have received in taxes there.

madnesspersues · 14-03-2009 6:23pm

I'm in favour of reintroducing college fees, espically for those wishing to attend the main universities, trinity etc... . The reintroduction of fees will reduce the points needed to gain entry to courses like medicine,law and english and have the upper classes regaining the poisitions of importance on society. Structure is what this irish society needs, and orderly class heirarchy would reduce the problems we have in governemnt like lack of majority etc.... we need a strong ruling class....but that's what hitler said, didn't he!?

theboat · 14-03-2009 7:37pm

Does anyone know what the 'graduate tax' that was talked about would consist of? Would you not end up paying more than than if you simply paid the fees at the time? If not, it seems to me a more manageable way for students to pay for their college education.

KeyLimePie · 14-03-2009 7:53pm

madnesspersues wrote: »

I'm in favour of reintroducing college fees, espically for those wishing to attend the main universities, trinity etc... . The reintroduction of fees will reduce the points needed to gain entry to courses like medicine,law and english and have the upper classes regaining the poisitions of importance on society. Structure is what this irish society needs, and orderly class heirarchy would reduce the problems we have in governemnt like lack of majority etc.... we need a strong ruling class....but that's what hitler said, didn't he!?

I do hope you're joking but if the government did bring in fees I don't think the points system would be affected

GobBass · 15-03-2009 12:26am

Can't we just wait and see what they do? Then invite Batt O'Keefe to UCD just to turn our backs to him in distain for his actions against the state rather than doing things in the interest of the people as he has said in many an interview.We should focus on going to lectures and not disturb them by way of setting protests that will ruffle a few feathers but only of the dodo and not the government.I am a 19 year old 1st year from and I'm not important,I recognise that.But I feel a couple of thousand people on the gates of Dail Eireann just won't cut it.

1st years will be coming in next year expecting an almost weekly protest by the looks of things at present and casually skip lectures while blissfully unaware of their loss is already in front of them.Like I said to a very offending election canvasser last week:

'I came to university for an education of my choosing,not to be bogged down by politics of people who clearly have their own agendas'.

How can a student,no matter what status he/she has,have any say in anything that the government carries out on a daily basis? I was wondering that the other day and just wanted if that self-help book to counter came out yet.

All I can say is that the parents are the real victims here..they are the ones who should be protesting.After all,they'll be paying our fees for the most part in the early stages if this pulls through.

Breezer · 15-03-2009 1:07pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Apologies for bringing this back, but I only just saw it now. In times such as these, with growing unemployment, this cannot work.

I'm not suggesting a massive tax hike to solve our present economic woes. It was a long-term idea, in response to your "TAXES" comment.

I get very irritated when people (in general, I'm not attacking you here), confronted with the reality that there is a much greater emphasis put on society than on personal wealth in countries such as Sweden, constantly retort that taxes are higher in these countries, as if taxes are the world's greatest evil. If used properly, higher taxes can be of great benefit to a society. I would much rather have a functioning health (or, indeed, education) system than a BMW, and would be quite willing to pay much higher taxes in order to achieve that.

3rd Level fees a consideration by Fianna Fail

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