advise on proposed changes to the firearms laws

paul1972

i have been told by someone official that the proposed changes to the firearms laws are far more sweeping than anybody thought possible and affect all branches of the sport...clay shooting and deer stalking ect,,,target shooting will be very hard hit the only form the minister for justice and the garda commisioner approve of is the olympic disiplines and all other forms will be so curtailed as to make them impossible to continue with ,,,even though there is no sound reason for doing this.......clay shooting will also suffer as clubs will be responsible for removing the spent lead shot from the land the club is situated on and a ban on the use of lead shot anywhere near waterways or lakes,,,deer stalking will be very restricted as stalking will only be available to those who can afford to lease land or clubs who will control deer for farmers under strict conditions as to calibers allowed and becoming a sport for the elite once again ,,,,,also they want to restrict the ammount of firearms you can hold to two with restrictive security conditions which include monitored alarms and even more expensive gun safes , semi auto rifles over .22 cal and semi auto shotguns will be out ,,, the person who said this feels it will pass in april due to the fact everybody thinks the proposed changes only involve pistols and revolvers and nobody is kicking up about it ,, nobody is sending e-mails to their local politicians or any of the ministers ,,,also the shooting bodies are keeping quite hoping their diciplines will be left alone but none will .... please say this cant be so....

whydave

Great time to grab your ankles lads ..........:mad:

Sparks

1) Who's "someone official",
2) If you think that noone thought the changes would be sweeping, you've missed the two enormous threads and the several side threads on them in here and you've never spoken to anyone in the admin side of the sport in the last five years,
3) The bans and controls on lead shot are EU laws being proposed, not Irish laws being enacted,
4) Have you sent this to your shooting body and gotten any response.

rrpc

paul1972 wrote: »

nobody is kicking up about it ,, nobody is sending e-mails to their local politicians or any of the ministers ,,,also the shooting bodies are keeping quite hoping their diciplines will be left alone but none will .... please say this cant be so....

It's very hard to kick up about something that is as ephemeral as mist. All we've got so far is rumour and counter-rumour. How can you kick up about something you don't know?

If any legislation is being brought forward, the time to kick up is when it's published. Then we'll have something concrete to debate rather than hearsay and rumour. Any bill will have to go through the Dail and the Seanad and that's when we'll have an opportunity to get our spoke in.

Sparks

And until it's been shown to the Dail, by the way, noone is meant to see it outside the Minster's staff - it's not like it's not been asked for - because to do so would be to tell the Dail that whomever saw it first was more important in the political process than the Dail. "Showing contempt" was the way it was put at the last FCP seminar (and the point is highlighed in the thread on that seminar in here).

chem

Sparks wrote: »

And until it's been shown to the Dail, by the way, noone is meant to see it outside the Minster's staff - it's not like it's not been asked for - because to do so would be to tell the Dail that whomever saw it first was more important in the political process than the Dail. "Showing contempt" was the way it was put at the last FCP seminar (and the point is highlighed in the thread on that seminar in here).

Again sparks I have to love your blind faith;) If it is ment to be done the way its ment to be done, well thats the way it will be done.:rolleyes:

Alot of the "rumours" mentioned before the CJB turned out to be true or very close to the mark. I cant see how this will be any different.

I hope to be having a meeting with minister Ahern tomorrow so will see what I can find out.

If anyone can help with some questions I might not of taught off let me know:)

Sparks

chem wrote: »

Again sparks I have to love your blind faith;) If it is ment to be done the way its ment to be done, well thats the way it will be done.:rolleyes:

Not blind faith - more that if it isn't done this way, someone is getting a bollocking from the Minister when it comes out.

Alot of the "rumours" mentioned before the CJB turned out to be true or very close to the mark. I cant see how this will be any different.

A lot of the "rumours" were that the CJB would be a tiny, tiny thing that'd do nothing but good for the sport. Don't pee on my back and tell me it's raining, I was there at the time, and I remember looking at the amendments to the CJB when McDowell first published them, and myself and jaycee had kittens at some of the stuff in there and we were told, extensively, by certain folks (who are now calling for riots in protest at the Misc Bill) that there was nothing to worry over, that it was all going to be fine and to stop being so chicken little about it.
Irony's a funny thing...

I hope to be having a meeting with minister Ahern tomorrow so will see what I can find out.

Well, don't tell him he wrote a letter to the Supers, okay chem? I asked the DoJ about that this morning and they confirmed that the Minister does not and did not write to the Superintendents like that. (Whether or not the Commissioner did is another thing).

If anyone can help with some questions I might not of taught off let me know:)

Let us know the questions you have thought of first, would you?

chem

Sparks wrote: »

Let us know the questions you have thought of first, would you?

Good thinking:pac:

1. Are pistols over .22 to be banned or will they be placed on the restricted list?
2. Is it only 9mm pistols that are the problem? (depending on answer to above)
3. Are any types or calibers of rifles to be banned?
4. What security will be required for those who already hold a pistol cert after the misc bills inacted.
5. Will you be placing a limit on the number of firearms that one person can hold?
6. Reloading is it going to be allowed? And if so what restrictions will be put in place?
7. Will compensation be provided by the government, for handguns if a full ban is put in place?
8. Will there be a amnisty for pistol owners who have applied for an export licence, but due to a delay in processing have unlicenced firearms?


Im still working on it. Only home from work and have to ring his office tomorrow to see if he will be available for the meeting. But if not tomorrow I will keep pushing as he is my local TD

Sparks

Given events up north chem, I suspect you might be told he's a little busy. Especially since the next FCP meeting is so close (early april). But try anyway, everything gets noticed and (almost) everything helps.

BornToKill

paul1972 wrote: »

i have been told by someone official

You really have to give us a little more than that. Who has all this 'secret plans' information. Without a credible source, it's just more rumours.

Grizzly 45

Chem,
You could also ask ;is the reloading issue going to be possible,and doable within the remit of normal man?Not requiring more extensive security arrangements, fire dept,and H&S checks ,audits etc?
What will the qualifications be to reload,based on which country?,and will there be a public consultation process on this?

2] If any or all pistols are to be banned,what and who will be in charge of , and decide the value and compensation of said pistols and ALL Accessories and spare parts???And for range equipment,and lands used for pistol shooting of any type??
How long will it take to issue said compensation?
How much will it cost the Irish taxpayer in administration,storage and security of said process?
Will the DOJ expedite the export paperwork within `14/21 days for all those who wish to move their firearms out of Ireland?As this is the norm for European govts and beaurraccies to turn around paperwork relating to firearms matters,and Ireland being part of the EU is woefully slow on this matter?Will all pistol holders wishing to dispose of their firearms outside the ROI be exempt from proscution by the Gardai for possesion of unliscensed firearms,if they have stated this intent in writing to both DOJ and Gardai and are waiting for export permits which have not been issued due to beauracratic slowness???[Happened in the UK post Dunblane in a few cases]

chem

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Chem,
You could also ask

Have a look at the above edit. OK?

Grizzly 45

Good enough for Govt work!:D;)
Suppose you could also ask,under what specific grounds or reasons and proof thereof,that they pose a viable risk to the public should handguns be banned that are held by the liscensed gunowner,and the same reasons why should any paticular rifle or calibre be banned as well under the same proof of reasoning?

chem

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Good enough for Govt work!:D;)

Dont want to confuse the poor lad buy asking complex questions;) I do intend inviting him to a range in NI

Grizzly 45

Good luck on that one Chem.He is supoosedly notoriously anti gun! Still we might have a road to Damascus..err.. Kells NI conversion??:D:D

Sparks

I'd say leave the reloading bit to one side - he'll just say that's to be dealt with in the rewrite of the explosives act, and to be fair, that is what we've been hearing from the FCP.

I would be interested to know exactly how he plans to ban any specific firearm - ie. what mechanism in law will be used.

And a conversion isn't needed; just for everyone to follow the rules...

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

I'd say leave the reloading bit to one side...

Easy to say when you're not affected by it.

IMO there is no reason this couldn't have been sorted with the rest of the stuff.

Sparks

Except that the original legislative change to handle it was rushed through the door by McDowell, and his rushed legislative changes have since acquired a certain reputation for being 'troubled'.

But if you do go in to meet a Minister, it's best to keep the meeting simple, with a tight focus. That's just meetings for you. Set up another one later for reloading.

CJhaughey

Sparks wrote: »

But if you do go in to meet a Minister, it's best to keep the meeting simple, with a tight focus.

Ahh the KISS principle no?

Sparks

Yes, but the second one, not the engineering one
(Keep It really Simple)

bunny shooter

CJhaughey wrote: »

Ahh the KISS principle no?

It's the final "S" that really sums up the current minister eh CJ

Meyer

paul1972 wrote: »

the person who said this feels it will pass in april due to the fact everybody thinks the proposed changes only involve pistols and revolvers and nobody is kicking up about it ,, nobody is sending e-mails to their local politicians or any of the ministers ,,,also the shooting bodies are keeping quite hoping their diciplines will be left alone but none will .... please say this cant be so....

It cant be so, A. for reasons said above in the other posts, i.e. The Dail has to see the new legislation, before anyone else...That is unless you "official" is in the DOJ working on the legislation? and B. The Minister has stated that existing licences will be renewed providing we all build nuclear proof bunkers or some other silly security measures and, I quote from DOJ "The Minister considers that his proposals will not cause inconvenience to the vast majority of gun owners, who have had no interest in acquiring hand guns." If anything else is put in the new legislation, that comment is a clear lie.

bunny shooter

And sure a politican never lies

Only changes their minds

Meyer

bunny shooter wrote: »

And sure a politican never lies

Only changes their minds

LOL that's true...But if the above is true, It would be high time for the "F@@k you Jack, I'm OK" types to get their fingers out and start realising that unity is strength, and that were the vast majority of firearms owners to protest against such legislation, it would be such a sizeable voting block, that it would make Ahern sit up and say "this isn't what we need right now..."

Sparks

More to the point, what we're talking about here has no named source, no proof of any kind, and certainly I've never gotten the sense from talking to the people in the DoJ and FCP that they're that underhanded. The Minister might be a bit of a loose cannon, but apart from him, I worry more about people in our own camp causing a fuss than I do about the DoJ.

And on top of all of this, if something so monumentally sport-crushing were envisaged by the Minister:

1. He wouldn't do it through a much-anticipated Bill, he'd do it through one of the other avenues that the CJA2006 provides him with;
2. If it was tried through a bill, he would raise the ire of every NGB who sits on the FCP because he'd be attacking their sports directly after telling them porkies, so he'd be scuppering the FCP; and
3. he'd be inducing the same degree of protest as we saw during the licence fee hike at a time when, lets face it, the government doesn't need any more hassle or protest pointed at it. He's a lot of things, but the Minister couldn't be that politically inept.

chem

Minister Ahern was at the funeral of the PSNI officer today so was not available for a meeting. I have been told I will get a call when he is free and at his clinic. Monday and Fridays.

Keep any questions coming;)

Sparks

From the IT thread btw chem:

Sparks wrote: »

Heard from a reliable-but-unidentifiable-on-here source about the 'letter': it's a reminder on a previous letter, which outlined to Superintendents that people seeking pistol licences should be informed of the Ministers statement in November, where he said that any pistol licence granted after his announcement will be revoked by retrospective legislation to be included in the Miscellaneous Provisions Bill.

milkerman wrote: »

I have this also from a friendly Garda source - a reminder was issued to each division stating that applicants were to be informed that licences granted post the Ministers statement would not be renewed.

jwshooter

paul1972 wrote: »

i have been told by someone official that the proposed changes to the firearms laws are far more sweeping than anybody thought possible and affect all branches of the sport...clay shooting and deer stalking ect,,,target shooting will be very hard hit the only form the minister for justice and the garda commisioner approve of is the olympic disiplines and all other forms will be so curtailed as to make them impossible to continue with ,,,even though there is no sound reason for doing this.......clay shooting will also suffer as clubs will be responsible for removing the spent lead shot from the land the club is situated on and a ban on the use of lead shot anywhere near waterways or lakes,,,deer stalking will be very restricted as stalking will only be available to those who can afford to lease land or clubs who will control deer for farmers under strict conditions as to calibers allowed and becoming a sport for the elite once again ,,,,,also they want to restrict the ammount of firearms you can hold to two with restrictive security conditions which include monitored alarms and even more expensive gun safes , semi auto rifles over .22 cal and semi auto shotguns will be out ,,, the person who said this feels it will pass in april due to the fact everybody thinks the proposed changes only involve pistols and revolvers and nobody is kicking up about it ,, nobody is sending e-mails to their local politicians or any of the ministers ,,,also the shooting bodies are keeping quite hoping their diciplines will be left alone but none will .... please say this cant be so....

your talking pure and utter crap .

the only thing going to be banned is practical pistol shooting and the licencing of pistols over .22
thanks to the practical pistol shooters pushing there unwanted sport on a government and police force that did want it in the first place

paul1972

hope your right

Dusty87

been told that its only pistol shooters myself from a few people. But theres so many rumours no one knows whats goin on.

paul1972

pistols today rifles tomorrow and maybe shotguns the next day as far as they are concerned a gun is a gun is a gun