College Fees

Sparks

niallsparky wrote: »

a simple solution would be for people who have availed of third level education to pay a slightly higher rate of income tax once they are earning. This would mean no crippling personal debts and increased revenue for Government in the future.

...and a rise in the rate of emigration because you're talking about the Government putting in place an economic penalty for sticking around once you graduate.

Amirani

Sparks wrote: »

...and a rise in the rate of emigration because you're talking about the Government putting in place an economic penalty for sticking around once you graduate.

I don't think that paying an extra 5% income tax is significant enough to cause a large rise in the emigration rate. We still pay relatively low income tax by European standards so it shouldn't change things much. I'm not fully supportive of third level fees but I think this is the most favourable approach to it.

Sparks

niallsparky wrote: »

I don't think that paying an extra 5% income tax is significant enough to cause a large rise in the emigration rate.

9%. Not 5%.
And remember the fun we just had with the pension levy? All the protests? That was for 7%, and that wasn't aimed at people's children. I think this might be a tougher sell than it's being made out to be.

thebman

GSBellew wrote: »

I think you are misunderstanding the idea somewhat.

I don't think I misunderstand the idea at all. It isn't a hard idea to grasp, I think you are willfully ignoring my point TBH as I don't think it is a hard point to grasp either.

Refusing to see that it is justifiable to be expected to pay something back for what you have received is an awful reflection of just how deep rooted the welfare state mindset is in this country, on all levels of society, where people expect to get and never have to give anything in return.

Education is an investment not a hand out :rolleyes:

People who graduate get higher paying jobs and contribute more to the state than people who don't graduate.

veryangryman

thebman wrote: »

I don't think I misunderstand the idea at all. It isn't a hard idea to grasp, I think you are willfully ignoring my point TBH as I don't think it is a hard point to grasp either.



Education is an investment not a hand out :rolleyes:

People who graduate get higher paying jobs and contribute more to the state than people who don't graduate.

I do wish people would take this point onboard. the government never gave free fees without expecting some kind of return. That return is HIGHER TAXES from HIGHER WAGES

Surely this is a no brainer.

As for my opinions on Batt o Keefe, lets just say i think of his first name as a verb after his recent recommendations.

RealistSpy

I actually agree to some point about paying for college because then people who do go take it serious.

thebman

People do pay for college, it is called registration fee and it is over a grand a year.

That's an expensive entry fee for a piss up.

Besides paying for college with loans hasn't made American's take it more seriously has it?

Where is the evidence that people will appreciate it more if they have to be heavily endebted to obtain it?

I disagree completely with giving people large personal debts before they even enter the work force. Large personal debts is partly how we ended up in this situation in the first place.

fatboypee

For my part, I find the fees issue a simply incredulous example of the governmet trying to pull a fast-one and getting away with it becuase people have been softened up to accept this kind of sh1t. Its an easy sell to the masses who are losing their jobs as this is an expense that can be labelled directly as you & I paying...

If as its been mooted, the students wil lbe saddled with the debt when the education is completed, what is the nett benefit ? The government will STILL have to foot the bill NOW and plan to get it back later ? What is the point ? Other than to take the opportunitiy of the falling economy to back-door a policy that has been part of a long standing agenda ?

If the articles in the Irish Times etc are to be believed, and we are aware that the document was *ahem* LEAKED just before the recess (an act really, utterly unworthy of a government, yet, wholly unsurprising all the same), each student coming out of 3 years of third level with have an average debt in excess of €21k. In my opinion this will have a catastrophic effect on the economy, the univerisites and overall the long-term prosperity of this country. And for what ? WHAT is the nett-gain of this ? If we believe what we have read, that the government could net up to €380 million ? HOW MUCH IS THE ONGOING FK-UP called bailing out the banks costing ? Errrr Billions ?

The Celtic Tiger's foundations were laid by an openly superior, educated and better qualified workforce that positively thrived on a free education system. That drew international companies here.
If you take that away, or negate it's effect by saddling it's recipients with an insurmountable debt when they are finished the primary degree, surely you're simply shooting yourself in the foot long term as the feed of graduates will not be forthcoming and the overseas businesses will go elsewhere (as they are already) and we'll be deeper in the sh1t for longer ?

Saying that, I'm not averse to paying some kind of supplementary fees (after all we've been paying for FREE primary and secondary education for years already). Plus, if done correctly and the funds directed straight into the institutions providing the courses, it will have a benefit in the standards and quality of the courses. What I do object to however, is the government utterly running away from third level education almost overnight, and leaving families and individuals, yet again, with a burden they can ill-afford to take on right now, much less in 4 years when there are no jobs to take up to try to begin repaying the debt...
And for what ? a short-term 380+ million that the government will have to fund in loans anyway?? I say again, tis a ruse chaps and this has been on the cards a long time for sure, what better time to bring it in than under the guise of "we cant' afford it"....

Still, I've a better idea, maybe we should provide a course for "competence in Politics" and make all would-be politicians pass it before they can be elected.. Oh, then we'd only charge them the fees for the course afterwards...

FBP.

Sparks

DCU's president commenting on the loan plans. Personally, I don't agree with even engaging with the plans, but the point that the universities haven't been consulted on this whole idea is pretty damning.

caspertheghost

yay_for_summer wrote: »

But then rich parents will pay for their kids' fees and they won't have to take on any loan. So there's still inequality.

As long as there are rich and poor on the planet there will always be inequality, that's life.
Bottom line is the country cannot afford free fees. It's just as simple as that unfortunately. I'm a student myself and I may not be able to continue with my studies unless a loan system comes in.

I'd prefer fees to come back then to see the medical card taken away from OAP's or less hospital beds for the sick.

Maybe if the government wasn't so windy it could take on the civil service and save some money (top heavy middle management in the HSE you know who you are). A bit of topic but why is it that civil servants are not exposed to the same competitive pressures as the rest of the working public. Maybe it's because they are superior to the rest of us, smarter, harder working, and definitely more efficient. They are a model work force. If only the rest of the population could achieve that level of commitment sure we'd be grand. :rolleyes:

thebman

I don't think you realise the devastating effect this could have on our so called smart economy within a few years as college graduate numbers decline in all fields.

We will have trouble attracting high knowledge jobs when we have fewer and fewer people training to actually work in these jobs.

If this comes in, it is basically telling many people with a college degree or entering college to get one to get ready for emigration.

RealistSpy

A quick question will grant be covering the college fees? If so why are people complaining?

thebman

You'll be lucky if there are grants when FF are done with education.

And I don't think grants will cover college fees.

caspertheghost

thebman wrote: »

I don't think you realise the devastating effect this could have on our so called smart economy within a few years as college graduate numbers decline in all fields.

We will have trouble attracting high knowledge jobs when we have fewer and fewer people training to actually work in these jobs.

If this comes in, it is basically telling many people with a college degree or entering college to get one to get ready for emigration.

I have a fair idea as to how things are. I'm a mature student, I was looking for work in the 80's and know only too well what it's like not to be able to get work never mind a place in college when points were crazy and all college courses had fees attached. Even if you had the money you needed a stupid amount of points to get a place. I remember Charles Haughey paying a 1000 pounds for his shirts when I couldn’t get a job. That was Irish society back in the day!


Having said that we survived and went on to produce a boom time even with the brain drain. Yes people with emigrate; those who stay behind will flourish. It's not very nice but it's life.
The simple fact of the matter is the country is spending more then it's revenue, we are trying to fill a leaking bucket.

I'd love to see all courses free as I believe in free education and no one should be excluded from third level. I'd like to see a free health care system, not a hundred euro when you visit A&E. I'd like to see social welfare payments increased and enough money for pensions for everyone in the country blah blah blah.

I don't like the idea of fees but no one here has really put forward another viable solution as far as I can see. The best idea so far is student loans.

NeonAddict

hahahaha thats their new way *encouraging* people to go to college seriously its RECESSION people are loosing jobs and money every second they worry about how the hell to feed thier families at these times and now BANG! oh yeah remember the college fees are back so would you mind paying them aswell you know nobody cares if you got the money or not just pay if you want your kids to go to college.Seriously this country is a joke.

[quote=I really don't see why other people's taxes should be funding an increase in my own future earning potential.[/quote]

I really don't see why the income tax I pay after I graduate should be funding useless people, who are on welfare benefits for years, third-level grants to people who don't need them, etc. Not everybody agrees what the tax they pay should be spent on, the government does.

Idjit

I'm so darned angry!
I can hardly afford the registration fee alone but now the whole shebang is back!
ARRRGH!

[quote=I really don't see why other people's taxes should be funding an increase in my own future earning potential.[/quote]

I really don't see why the income tax I pay after I graduate should be funding useless people, who are on welfare benefits for years, third-level grants to people who don't need them, etc. Not everybody agrees what the tax they pay should be spent on, the government does.

niallsparky

niallsparky wrote: »

I really don't see why other people's taxes should be funding an increase in my own future earning potential.

I really don't see why the income tax I pay after I graduate should be funding useless people, who are on welfare benefits for years, third-level grants to people who don't need them, etc. Not everybody agrees what the tax they pay should be spent on, the government does.

NeonAddict

Jade182 wrote: »

I'm so darned angry!
I can hardly afford the registration fee alone but now the whole shebang is back!
ARRRGH!

i soo understand how you feel besides theyve already put the fees higher in some colleges which is **** they should do something to help people pay for the registration fee aswell

Sparks

Deleted User wrote: »

I really don't see why the income tax I pay after I graduate should be funding useless people

Relax. You get to vote on what useless feckers you fund every four years or so.

Haru

I'm feeling sick everytime I hear the word "fees" those days. How come some other countries can reduce them to something like 400 euros and Ireland can't ?
And then, when you graduate... there's no job left. Wooha. I'm seriously thinking about emigrating sometimes.

thebman

Haru wrote: »

I'm feeling sick everytime I hear the word "fees" those days. How come some other countries can reduce them to something like 400 euros and Ireland can't ?
And then, when you graduate... there's no job left. Wooha. I'm seriously thinking about emigrating sometimes.

That just makes FF feel better. One less for the dole queues.

Haru

thebman wrote: »

That just makes FF feel better. One less for the dole queues.

Maybe I should stay then... just to bother them. :pac:

listowel1

bring them in,no harm to weed out a few wasters

dotsflan

listowel1 wrote: »

bring them in,no harm to weed out a few wasters

and what about genuine people who want to study but wont be able to afford the costs???

NeonAddict

Haru wrote: »

I'm feeling sick everytime I hear the word "fees" those days. How come some other countries can reduce them to something like 400 euros and Ireland can't ?
And then, when you graduate... there's no job left. Wooha. I'm seriously thinking about emigrating sometimes.

trust me your not the only one that plans on emigrating I myself hear about people I know emigrating soon every day one of my friend is going to Canada in November ,other to Sweden and good few of my other friends are not sure but plan to go soon to some places aswell because there is no even part time jobs to support ourselves while we are in college.And I actualy agree with your point like there could be lots of jobs lost yet they cannot drop the prices of courses to anything lower even if it was something a bit over 400 people would still be happy that its lower than usual,but no instead they plan to just make them rise so later in the future we would have to repay them from out of nowhere.

Haru

Lolz. It's however starting to scare me. When I think about the students I've been living with, two graduated a year ago and are still trying to get a job (actually anything really), one emigrated to the States and one is planning to go to France to marry her french boyfriend and hopes to find a job over there. Ireland has needs though, when it comes to nurses, doctors, therapists (as an exemple).

veryangryman

No harm guy but..

You need to do 2 things

1) Figure out who this "they" is that you keep referring to
2) Realise why "they" have little alternative at moment

RealistSpy

Hope things gets better soon at least before i finish college. Or else go on the dole and focus on sports.

NeonAddict

dotsflan wrote: »

and what about genuine people who want to study but wont be able to afford the costs???

well theyre simply ****ed one of my mates is not going to college this year simply because he has no money and he wont get enough to do his course so he is taking a year off just to save money and hopefully go to college next year

NeonAddict

RealistSpy wrote: »

Hope things gets better soon at least before i finish college. Or else go on the dole and focus on sports.

why sports?

candlegrease

Excuse my ignorance but are fees officially?

Also, how much approx per year will medicine cost? Will it be means tested?

RealistSpy

NeonAddict wrote: »

why sports?

The sport world is booming because you have more time for trainning.