College Fees

melekalikimaka

electrogrimey wrote: »

The poor? Who are you, the Queen? Or are you just horribly prejudiced? And it's not "because you pay more tax", it's because you earn more...

earning more and paying more taxes go hand in hand. how is using the word poor prejudiced? If someone cant afford something it usually is due to being poor? no?

carlmango11

melekalikimaka wrote: »

fees need to be brought back in, its a strain on the government, free fees is a luxury we have had for a few years now, same as medical cards, the country would be in a better financial situation if these celtic tiger luxuries were revoked...even for the duration of the economic crisis, sure the amount of money wasted on drop ots is vast, pay yourself and i'm sure we'd see a drop in drop out rates

Medical Cards and University Fees are not a luxury. What is the problem in Ireland with having something unique and better than other countries, do we aspire to being second to other countries as usual.

The Medical Card is Irelands way of giving free Healthcare to those who can't afford it, such as most healthcare systems in the EU.

And free college fees is one of those things Ireland has above everyone else, we had pride in the fact we're a "knowledge based economy", obviously complete tripe considering education was the first to get cutbacks.

Why is mediocrity the expected standard in this country?

claireloopy

Failte Ireland will not be giving grants this year. Just my luck! I hate this country

RealistSpy

claireloopy wrote: »

Failte Ireland will not be giving grants this year. Just my luck! I hate this country

No you don't!

claireloopy

yes i do!! I need that grant.

RealistSpy

So do you but if I don't get what can I do plus I have a child to feed. :S

claireloopy

i know girl like I dont know what to do now with no grant. cant believe it

Dboy85

Whats wrong with the VEC grants? Is 3000-6000 not enough for ya?! Dont drop out and drink your money! When the VEC goes kaputnik then lets bitch about it

joey54

The grant system in Ireland seriously needs to be examined. I mean some of the people who are receiving grants is an absolute joke.

Dboy85

joey54 wrote: »

The grant system in Ireland seriously needs to be examined. I mean some of the people who are receiving grants is an absolute joke.

True that! Rich kids usin it for drinkin money

melekalikimaka

Dboy85 wrote: »

True that! Rich kids usin it for drinkin money

groundless comments aren't helpful

Riamfada

Ireland hasnt invested billions in the last few years for the European prestige of saying "well we have a knowledge based economy". The introduction of free fees did its job, it created a knowledge based economy but now has a massive skills surplus to the point where a third level qualification in some instances is pointless and it a large and unecessary drain on the country.

Now if the government and Ireland no longer needs a few thousand graduates a year entering the system and going on to social welfare + the few thousand it cost to educate that person why keep the "free" fees system in place? (ie Ireland has paid for enough of its population to be educated). Government funded education in third level was an amazing idea. It brought the country from an manufacturing backwater into the 20th century but its job now is done. The money is there to access third level and the country is awash with skills and qualifications.

Backed up by the system is largely being abused at the moment by unmotivated, lowest-common denominator, aimless students being pushed through the system by countless repeat allowances, free fees and as mLoc said earlier but of course this is a generalisation but one that prevailed over my four years in UCD. What also stuck me was that these were the people leading the "save the fee" debate on the fact that their parents gave them an allowance of 150-200 a week and paid for their campus accomodation so they had the time to be activists for the cause.

But I digress

I have asked a few of these "free fees" campaingers that and I have been met with anger and disgust but never actually got a response fitting of a third level mind, im looking for a answer to that here.

Cheers
G

joey54

Dboy85 wrote: »

True that! Rich kids usin it for drinkin money

It's not that. It's the fact that there are students who don't need it to survive through college are getting it and then there are some students who really need it yet do not receive it. The system needs to be examined.

injured365

Grimes wrote: »

Ireland hasnt invested billions in the last few years for the European prestige of saying "well we have a knowledge based economy". The introduction of free fees did its job, it created a knowledge based economy but now has a massive skills surplus to the point where a third level qualification in some instances is pointless and it a large and unecessary drain on the country.

Now if the government and Ireland no longer needs a few thousand graduates a year entering the system and going on to social welfare + the few thousand it cost to educate that person why keep the "free" fees system in place? (ie Ireland has paid for enough of its population to be educated). Government funded education in third level was an amazing idea. It brought the country from an manufacturing backwater into the 20th century but its job now is done. The money is there to access third level and the country is awash with skills and qualifications.

Backed up by the system is largely being abused at the moment by unmotivated, lowest-common denominator, aimless students being pushed through the system by countless repeat allowances, free fees and as mLoc said earlier but of course this is a generalisation but one that prevailed over my four years in UCD. What also stuck me was that these were the people leading the "save the fee" debate on the fact that their parents gave them an allowance of 150-200 a week and paid for their campus accomodation so they had the time to be activists for the cause.

But I digress

I have asked a few of these "free fees" campaingers that and I have been met with anger and disgust but never actually got a response fitting of a third level mind, im looking for a answer to that here.

Cheers
G

Whats the question?

Riamfada

injured365 wrote: »

Whats the question?

Well is it in the country's interest to continue paying to educate people in the skills they need when they will be entering into a job environment which is awash with highly skilled unemployed labour and will run a high risk of emigrating or going on social welfare with their skills thus exporting the investment the contry has made in them or adding to the social welfare cost.

injured365

Grimes wrote: »

Well is it in the country's interest to continue paying to educate people in the skills they need when they will be entering into a job environment which is awash with highly skilled unemployed labour and will run a high risk of emigrating or going on social welfare with their skills thus exporting the investment the contry has made in them or adding to the social welfare cost.

Well if you look at it from the point of view that if the government stop paying these fees then they will be taking the option of college completely away from a significant portion of the population. As you yourself mentioned, the country already has a large number of highly skilled unemployed so what choice would that leave an unskilled teenager just out of school?? They would either leave the country or add to the social welfare. Sounds like the same result however someone with a qualification of some kind will always have more opportunities than those lacking in any qualifications.

While the main idea behind paying college fees was, no doubt, to create a skilled workforce, it was also to give those less advantaged more opportunities in life. Now at a time when more and more families are struggling to make ends meet, the government decides to cut college fees rather than make the harder choices such as bring social welfare in line with other EU countries, cut their own hugely inflated wages and expenses, get rid of the Seanad retirement home, stop people taking advantage of the social welfare. The fact of the matter is if college fees are dropped, in roughly 20-25 years, when the current workforce are retired/nearing retirement/involved in management positions the number of people able to replace them will be very small as college will have become a luxury of the wealthier families

The Volt

injured365 wrote: »

Well if you look at it from the point of view that if the government stop paying these fees then they will be taking the option of college completely away from a significant portion of the population. As you yourself mentioned, the country already has a large number of highly skilled unemployed so what choice would that leave an unskilled teenager just out of school?? They would either leave the country or add to the social welfare. Sounds like the same result however someone with a qualification of some kind will always have more opportunities than those lacking in any qualifications.

While the main idea behind paying college fees was, no doubt, to create a skilled workforce, it was also to give those less advantaged more opportunities in life. Now at a time when more and more families are struggling to make ends meet, the government decides to cut college fees rather than make the harder choices such as bring social welfare in line with other EU countries, cut their own hugely inflated wages and expenses, get rid of the Seanad retirement home, stop people taking advantage of the social welfare. The fact of the matter is if college fees are dropped, in roughly 20-25 years, when the current workforce are retired/nearing retirement/involved in management positions the number of people able to replace them will be very small as college will have become a luxury of the wealthier families

Top post

hsharz

i have to say i can´t understand how people who enyojed free fees now argue for their re-introduction.
i personally find fees in place already quiet high, especially if you think about the costs of living.

I study in Germany at a small college and luckily only pay 50€ registration fee per semestre(germany only allows tution fees up to 1000€ a year, but i chose a county without a tution fee structure).
i completly depend on my parents and a small grant, cause i´m in college monday to friday from morning to late afternoon or evening. I can´t afford to work if I want to finish college in time and with good results.

Ireland and most European countrys will depend on their skilled workforce for future economic succes.
education is no luxury .it´s a right we all have

joey54

-

The Minister for Education Batt O'Keeffe is expected to recommend a deferred-loan system for students to cover the cost of their third-level education, bringing an end to fee-free college.

The new system is similar to that which operates in Australia.

Mr O'Keeffe says his proposals, which will be given to ministers this week for consideration, has been family-proofed.

A decision is not expected until September with a new student contribution system coming into effect in autumn of next year.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/okeeffe-to-recommend-college-deferredloan-system-417475.html#ixzz0KNXF9USv&C

dr. onion

ASnyone have any more information on this? One radio station said fees are a definate for next autumn, but I can't find out how true that is. This loan system is a bad idea, it doesn't even work in Australia, most people never pay them back. And I don't see how giving us loans is going to pacify anyone

The Volt

It's actually been catastrophic over there as far as I'm aware

This is the same system that Australia’s Education Minister Julia Gillard has called “… anomalous, inconsistent and irrational” and where average loan repayments have reached a staggering €40,000 per student. Australia’s total debt for this college loan system is growing by €1.6 billion a year and is predicted to reach €14 billion by 2008-2009.

http://www.wsm.ie/story/4827

uriah

sr. kila wrote: »

You clearly dont own a mobile phone..
get with the times....... this is the new language..

But you are not texting on a mobile phone here.

thebman

It is a stupid idea. Loan system. Right so because we have the highest personal debt in Europe which threatens to bankrupt our nation, we will force more personal debt on people who wish to go to third level.

Sickening TBH. There should be free fees for all. I'm graduated BTW and have no kids that I know of ( :P ) so I've no invested interest in this myself other than thinking it would be better for the country in the long run.

I think the education system needs reform but this isn't reform. Its a return to fees for the sake of the budgets deficit which it won't fix and it seems more to make it appear like they are doing something and an attempt to get rid of free third level which I think they've wanted to do for some time which is why registratoin fees have been going up so much too.

melekalikimaka

thebman wrote: »

Its a return to fees for the sake of the budgets deficit which it won't fix .

pretty sure its will bring in serious cash for the government


bout time imo

thebman

melekalikimaka wrote: »

pretty sure its will bring in serious cash for the government


bout time imo

No it isn't. First of all, the loans have to come from somewhere. If its the banks then the taxpayer will be funding them somehow as the banks have no money and wouldn't lend to students with nothing to their name without being encourage somehow by government.

Then they won't see any money back from it for 4 years at least as the people working through for free now won't be paying the fees. This has already been said by the government previously.

Then you have the loss in tax from smart people that would have gone to college but didn't because of the costs and families that just can't afford it.

Weighed up against the savings from not paying students fees, I think we'll find out that this is going to cost us more than it will save us.

melekalikimaka

in all fairness the options are... keep free fees in, where government foots full cost of education, or loan system where thw money is given and paid back... where ya getting this idea that thats gonna cost the government more???

thebman

melekalikimaka wrote: »

in all fairness the options are... keep free fees in, where government foots full cost of education, or loan system where thw money is given and paid back... where ya getting this idea that thats gonna cost the government more???

Because if the government is putting the money up (which they will be as no bank will give loans to people with no money or possessions on the basis that they'll pay it back if they can get a job when they graduate) or the student doesn't pay it back because they can't or we end up with more people with lower paid jobs and get less tax and we have less business people because they can't study business in college etc... because of the cost.

Virtually every way this works, the government losses out in some way. In the current system at least most people get something out of it.

The idea that we are loaning money to students so they can pay it back is basically what we call tax in the current system.

GSBellew

thebman wrote: »

Because if the government is putting the money up (which they will be as no bank will give loans to people with no money or possessions on the basis that they'll pay it back if they can get a job when they graduate) or the student doesn't pay it back because they can't or we end up with more people with lower paid jobs and get less tax and we have less business people because they can't study business in college etc... because of the cost.

Virtually every way this works, the government losses out in some way. In the current system at least most people get something out of it.

The idea that we are loaning money to students so they can pay it back is basically what we call tax in the current system.

I think you are misunderstanding the idea somewhat.

My understanding of the above proposal would be that the state pays the fee's on your behalf much as happens at present, except it is seen as an advance or a loan which will become payable by you back to the state when you graduate and your earnings exceed a threshold. This system would not create any additional debt for the state as the money is already effectively being paid out for third level fees as it is, the main difference is that it would be a sorter term investment which should ultimately become almost self sustaining after the first few years.

I personally do not see what is wrong with this, as you would simply be paying back part of the investment made in your education by the state, the investment which is allowing you to earn a higher wage, surely it is right that this investment of public money should show some sort of return?

Refusing to see that it is justifiable to be expected to pay something back for what you have received is an awful reflection of just how deep rooted the welfare state mindset is in this country, on all levels of society, where people expect to get and never have to give anything in return.

Sparks

GSBellew wrote: »

Refusing to see that it is justifiable to be expected to pay something back for what you have received is an awful reflection of just how deep rooted the welfare state mindset is in this country, on all levels of society, where people expect to get and never have to give anything in return.

Indeed. On this point, this year I paid out in income tax three times the total amount the state invested in my college fees and somewhere near that total amount again in VAT. Given that a portion of this money is paying for other children's fees, and those will now be self-funding, when can I expect my rebate?

Or a better one, at the moment all firearms owners pay 38 euro per annum per firearm to the state, a total of about 8 million euro, for which we receive absolutely no services whatsoever (unlike with driving licences, tv licences and so forth where the state provides services). When may we expect to receive our rebate?


Oh, wait, sorry, you meant people outside Dail Eireann shouldn't expect to get something without giving something in return, didn't you? My mistake...

Amirani

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0711/1224250466444.html

Correct approach to take in my opinion. One concern would be the breakdown of fees for the different courses. Do we really want to be discouraging students from doing engineering degrees because it's going to seem more costly? Much better than outright fees based on the income level of parents I think.

As regards concerns of increasing the debt burden on students, a simple solution would be for people who have availed of third level education to pay a slightly higher rate of income tax once they are earning. This would mean no crippling personal debts and increased revenue for Government in the future. I really don't see why other people's taxes should be funding an increase in my own future earning potential.