What's the root cause for the very poor quality of our political leaders?

Johnboy Mac

What's the root cause for the very poor quality of our political leaders?

Anybody got any ideas on the above? Is it the system, history, greed, parochialism, whatever?

I personally find the general quality and lack of professionalism with our politicans very poor but just can't get my head around why this is so. I have some ideas to reasons why but would love to hear other peoples view point.

Mr. Presentable

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

What's the root cause for the very poor quality of our political leaders?

Anybody got any ideas on the above? Is it the system, history, greed, procaliasim, whatever?

I personally find the general quality and lack of professionalism with our politicans very poor but just can't get my head around why this is so. I have some ideas to reasons why but would love to hear other peoples view point.

I don't know what this means, but generally, I reckon those who want power are not those you'd want in power. Ultimately though, the people get the govt they elect.

stepbar

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

What's the root cause for the very poor quality of our political leaders?

The people who vote for them.

mikemac

We get the people we deserve.
Don't blame the politicans, they took a risk and put themselves forward and risk a humiliating defeat at elections, council, national and European. But even if they are incompetant through pure voter apathy they can hang onto their seat for years and years

Blame the voters who sit on the sidelines blaming politicans for everything but continue to vote the same way and expect a different result

To answer your question OP, I'd like to see Irish politicians be demoted or sacked from Ministers roles far sooner.
Look at the UK. Mandelson was sacked twice, David Blunkett was also sacked twice.

Here people don't get sacked, they shifted to lessor roles like John O'Donohue or Dick Roche.

Ever watch Prime Ministers questions times on at lunchtimes. It's pretty rowdy and they have fantastic orators. The Dail is passionless in comparison and pretty depressing.
Where's the passion lads?

Darragh29

Here's what I can't understand. Why is it that everything done in this country is not taken seriously. Take one example, I've been listening to this government for the last 12 years talking about homelessness and a strategy for homelessness, a taskforce for homelessness, resources and funding for homelessness, and I go into Dublin City yesterday and all I see on every street corner and on every street, I see homeless people.

How hard is it to take a couple of thousand people off the streets and get them into jobs??? Seriously, we have thrown money at this one problem for years but clearly the wrong strategy has been followed because we have more homeless people on our streets now than ever!

This is just one simple example of how nothing ever gets done properly in this country. If I was the minister with responsibility for this area, I'd throw myself into the Liffey because I would feel that I failed these people and they have suffered because of my incompetence.

Johnboy Mac

nipplenuts wrote: »

I don't know what this means, but generally, I reckon those who want power are not those you'd want in power. Ultimately though, the people get the govt they elect.

Yes, that goes without saying.

But you did'nt answer my question why are they of such poor overall quality? Or do you consider them to of good quality and carrying out a good job for the nation?

Offy

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

What's the root cause for the very poor quality of our political leaders?

Anybody got any ideas on the above? Is it the system, history, greed, procaliasim, whatever?

I personally find the general quality and lack of professionalism with our politicans very poor but just can't get my head around why this is so. I have some ideas to reasons why but would love to hear other peoples view point.

No accountability.

mikemac

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

But you did'nt answer my question why are they of such poor overall quality?

Parochialism. The young TD gets elected by taking over the "family" seat. For a republic we sure do have a lot of dynasties!
That's only one factor and it's only a small percentage of current politicans but for sure it goes on.

People vote for young candidate as they always voted for older family TD.
But did they look past the family name and judge them on their merits?

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

Or do consider them to of good quality and carrying out a good job for the nation?

For the nation?
I think you'll find many TD's are less national legislators and more souped up councillors. They do little in the Dail apart from obeying the party whip.

But the voters go to the TD with their problems instead of the councillors as the TD may get more results.

This goes back to having too many TD's. Plus people want somebody who can sort their local issues and might not be so concerned with somebody who ignores the constituency but is a fantastic legislator.

old boy

it is because the guys at the top get to select the people that stand for election, they do not want anyone who may be smarter than themselves, or anyone who they may consider to be a threat. why did aherne make clown cowen his no2, because he was not a threat, do you think that idiot from donegal is a threat to her party leader.

Mr. Presentable

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

Yes, that goes without saying.

But you did'nt answer my question why are they of such poor overall quality? Or do you consider them to of good quality and carrying out a good job for the nation?

But I did I asked people why they voted for X last time out. Many (women mostly) voted for the "nice looking one", or the one who is "good to his family". People vote based on charisma, not political ability. the people you would actually want in power are in business.

Johnboy Mac

nipplenuts wrote: »

But I did I asked people why they voted for X last time out. Many (women mostly) voted for the "nice looking one", or the one who is "good to his family". People vote based on charisma, not political ability. the people you would actually want in power are in business.

Ah, I see now Good and interesting point.

Johnboy Mac

mikemac wrote: »

Parochialism. The young TD gets elected by taking over the "family" seat. For a republic we sure do have a lot of dynasties!
That's only one factor and it's only a small percentage of current politicans but for sure it goes on.

People vote for young candidate as they always voted for older family TD.
But did they look past the family name and judge them on their merits?



For the nation?
I think you'll find many TD's are less national legislators and more souped up councillors. They do little in the Dail apart from obeying the party whip.

But the voters go to the TD with their problems instead of the councillors as the TD may get more results.

This goes back to having too many TD's. Plus people want somebody who can sort their local issues and might not be so concerned with somebody who ignores the constituency but is a fantastic legislator.

+ 1

Johnboy Mac

old boy wrote: »

it is because the guys at the top get to select the people that stand for election, they do not want anyone who may be smarter than themselves, or anyone who they may consider to be a threat. why did aherne make clown cowen his no2, because he was not a threat, do you think that idiot from donegal is a threat to her party leader.

You made me smile. Love the bit bit about the 'idiot from Donegal' - a true lightweight that one.

peasant

mikemac wrote: »

Parochialism. The young TD gets elected by taking over the "family" seat. For a republic we sure do have a lot of dynasties!
That's only one factor and it's only a small percentage of current politicans but for sure it goes on.

People vote for young candidate as they always voted for older family TD.
But did they look past the family name and judge them on their merits?

That, and something else.

TDs are not measured by what they achived "for the country" or "the nation" but by how much they could screw the governement for that benefits their parish/county. The cutest hoor, the one that has something on the relevant minister, the one that can get the extra funding for the pet local project is the one that gets elected ...and elected again. (See Jackie Healy Rae in Kerry)

At party and governement level then you have the cute hoor pool. Only the meanest, keenest ones, those with all their principles for sale at the right price get a stab at the real power and the money troughs. At that stage their primary interest is their own political and financial advancment, followed by keeping the power base back home happy and very, very far down the list there may or may not be a little bit left for "the good of the country".

mikemac

Indeed, Michael Lowry does a good job for Tipp North too.
And will continue to top the poll by continuing to do so

gurramok

People vote for dynasties. Why?

Their father/mother helped them out with an issue locally and they automatically assume their offspring is just as good. Then throw in the FF/FG civil war issue and you get gombeens who are not even qualified in their Ministry role.

So yeh, the electorate is partly to blame as well as the quality of candidates.

Pride Fighter

We need people of passion and conviction. I dont agree with them politically but Richard Boyd Barrett and Joe Higgins are excellent human beings and really care about people. The main parties need more like them.

nesf

Johnboy Mac wrote: »

What's the root cause for the very poor quality of our political leaders?

Relative to who?

Scofflaw

mikemac wrote:

I think you'll find many TD's are less national legislators and more souped up councillors. They do little in the Dail apart from obeying the party whip.

I'd certainly lay some blame at that particular door. TDs vote with the party - always - and the government coalition parties vote together. As a result there's no real accountability for the TDs. If X says on the campaign trail that he'll campaign against the closure of a local hospital in Trim, and the government then decides to close the hospital, he will vote for its closure. Where there is no independence, there is no accountability.

Plus, of course, people go into politics far too early. Many of our TDs have virtually no experience outside politics, having run for Councillor in their twenties, and climbed up the ladder from there - and most of those that do have some experience outside politics were either civil or public servants.

glumly,
Scofflaw

Mr.Micro

Originally Posted by mikemac
I think you'll find many TD's are less national legislators and more souped up councillors. They do little in the Dail apart from obeying the party whip.

I think that is very astute mikemac. It would certainly explain the sheep mentality of most TD's. That is bad enough but when several of these sheep rise to Ministerial level then the true awfulness of their intellect and experience shows, and the country feels it alas.

Pride Fighter

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'd certainly lay some blame at that particular door. TDs vote with the party - always - and the government coalition parties vote together. As a result there's no real accountability for the TDs. If X says on the campaign trail that he'll campaign against the closure of a local hospital in Trim, and the government then decides to close the hospital, he will vote for its closure. Where there is no independence, there is no accountability.

Plus, of course, people go into politics far too early. Many of our TDs have virtually no experience outside politics, having run for Councillor in their twenties, and climbed up the ladder from there - and most of those that do have some experience outside politics were either civil or public servants.

glumly,
Scofflaw

I'd agree with this. With the advent of the IPP in the 19th Century discipline and party loyalty were instilled in Irish politics. It is still the same. If you vote against the government you are kicked out of the party, like Joe Behan was. In the states there are 'rogue'/'mavericks' who vote against there party frequently but dont have to retire the party whip. Joe Behan is still FF in his votes but is an independant, John McCain will always be a republican even though he votes against his party very frequently.

Johnboy Mac

peasant wrote: »

That, and something else.

TDs are not measured by what they achived "for the country" or "the nation" but by how much they could screw the governement for that benefits their parish/county. The cutest hoor, the one that has something on the relevant minister, the one that can get the extra funding for the pet local project is the one that gets elected ...and elected again. (See Jackie Healy Rae in Kerry)

At party and governement level then you have the cute hoor pool. Only the meanest, keenest ones, those with all their principles for sale at the right price get a stab at the real power and the money troughs. At that stage their primary interest is their own political and financial advancment, followed by keeping the power base back home happy and very, very far down the list there may or may not be a little bit left for "the good of the country".

Does that go for Ms. Beverley Cooper Flynn too?

mikemac

If she delivers for Mayo then yes.

Remember a lot of people vote for their independent TD and wait to see how much they can screw from them "baxtards in Dublin"
Save the local hospital & get more funding for the area is the priority. National priorites? lol, let some other area take the hit.

Michael Lowry in my area and I'd imagine Beverly Cooper is good at this too.

Johnboy Mac

mikemac wrote: »

If she delivers for Mayo then yes.

Remember a lot of people vote for their independent TD and wait to see how much they can screw from them "baxtards in Dublin"
Save the local hospital & get more funding for the area is the priority. National priorites? lol, let some other area take the hit.

Michael Lowry in my area and I'd imagine Beverly Cooper is good at this too.

So, the likes Lowry & Flynn with their political & personal baggage/history can survice as TD's almost regardless provided the work for local issues rather than national issues?

mikemac

Indeed they can sir

Do the good people of voters of independent TD's in Tipp and Mayo care about the closure of hospitals in Monaghan and Cavan to use an example?
Meh, not realy if their local hospital is saved.

People are selfish, they vote for selfish and corrupt politicians (but not all are) so realy the current politicians mirror ourselves or least the majority.

Which was 41% for FF in the last election afaik.

Pride Fighter

Is that Lowry lowlife continuing to top the poll in Tipp north. If someone accumulates penalty points they get there drivers licence revoked. If someone takes a 400,000 euro extension from a supermarket mogul they top the poll?? Oh yeah, this is Ireland. Steal a little, go to jail, steal a lot get a golden handshake and a pension.

stepbar

Darragh29 wrote: »

Here's what I can't understand. Why is it that everything done in this country is not taken seriously. Take one example, I've been listening to this government for the last 12 years talking about homelessness and a strategy for homelessness, a taskforce for homelessness, resources and funding for homelessness, and I go into Dublin City yesterday and all I see on every street corner and on every street, I see homeless people.

How hard is it to take a couple of thousand people off the streets and get them into jobs??? Seriously, we have thrown money at this one problem for years but clearly the wrong strategy has been followed because we have more homeless people on our streets now than ever!

This is just one simple example of how nothing ever gets done properly in this country. If I was the minister with responsibility for this area, I'd throw myself into the Liffey because I would feel that I failed these people and they have suffered because of my incompetence.

Darragh, it's very easy to get people off the street but keeping them off the streets is the problem. It's very hard for people to break out of the cycle towards self destruction (alcohol and drug abuse). Sure we could get them jobs but would they stay in same?

stepbar

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Is that Lowry lowlife continuing to top the poll in Tipp north. If someone accumulates penalty points they get there drivers licence revoked. If someone takes a 400,000 euro extension from a supermarket mogul they top the poll?? Oh yeah, this is Ireland. Steal a little, go to jail, steal a lot get a golden handshake and a pension.

Michael Lowry never went to jail.......

Pride Fighter

stepbar wrote: »

Michael Lowry never went to jail.......

Its ridiculous isnt it.

Naz_st

It seems to me that the mainstream irish political parties are very centrist and lack conviction on most issues, constantly trying to appease everyone. This means that they flip-flop on issues as the wind changes and the goal of the opposition party is reduced to deriding any proposals of the party in power. At least in the U.S. the "race for the middle" generally happens once every 4 years as the presidential campaign seasons begin. Here, it seems a constant facet of domestic politics.
And, as another poster has mentioned, party members almost always vote along party lines which makes bi-partisanship effectively impossible. The party in power has no accountability and can push through any legislation without consultation or any sort of agreement. At least over in the States for example there is often a need to appeal for cross party support and the president is genuinely powerless to stop legislation with true bi-partisan support. (although less so now over there with democratic control of the house, senate & presidential office)

Darragh29

stepbar wrote: »

Darragh, it's very easy to get people off the street but keeping them off the streets is the problem. It's very hard for people to break out of the cycle towards self destruction (alcohol and drug abuse). Sure we could get them jobs but would they stay in same?

For Christs sake, how hard is it to take a small community of no more than 3,000 people off the streets and get them into some sort of employment and self sufficiency??? If there was the will to do it, it would be done long ago.

It's the same old crap in this country with everything, taskforces, bullsh*t conferences and hot air shops are the order of the day with everything. I don't accept that any issue facing this country, cannot be resolved with hard work and some cop on. The people who we elect to sort out these issues, who we pay over 100K a year to deal with these type of problems, are simply not up to it, they don't know how to approach a problem and how to resolve it. They are up for talking about it, planning meetings about it and arranging expenses for everyone who is involved in talking about it, but as for resolving it, not a chance.