Voy or Ent, which is worse

Svalbard

Rawr wrote: »

Some people feel that way I guess.
Can't stand her personally, nor can I stand the real premise for her creation, to keep the 12-year-old male demographic hooked.

Well a hot recovering-Borg is kind of of a cool concept, but of course they ruined it. From season 4 on the show could have been renamed Star Trek: The Adventures of Seven and Janeway. B'Elanna Torres was a much more interesting character IMO.
But you're right, she was created for one purpose only, similar to the frequent appearances of Enterprise crew in their underwear under sexy blue lights smearing goo all over each other.

Can't imagine Picard and Crusher doing that somehow.

When did ST resort to the lowest common denominator to get ratings? Very sad.

nyarlothothep

Agree there, Bleanna was one of the few characters on Voy that had depth. And was very much underused. It was the voice that Jeri Ryan used for Seven that really grated, made even worse by Janeways whiskey 700 packs a day tone. What was worse was that both characters were impulsive mentalists who never listened to anyone! The fact that every episode revolved around them just made Voy even worse than it was before. They destroyed any semblance of community that existed before, as I think the first three series were much more ensemble. This compromised the premise of people being marooned, working together to get home. T'Pol was way better in that milieu of busty catsuited aliens as she had cop on.

Svalbard

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Agree there, Bleanna was one of the few characters on Voy that had depth. And was very much underused. It was the voice that Jeri Ryan used for Seven that really grated, made even worse by Janeways whiskey 700 packs a day tone. What was worse was that both characters were impulsive mentalists who never listened to anyone! The fact that every episode revolved around them just made Voy even worse than it was before. They destroyed any semblance of community that existed before, as I think the first three series were much more ensemble. This compromised the premise of people being marooned, working together to get home. T'Pol was way better in that milieu of busty catsuited aliens as she had cop on.

True.

Enterprise could also be faulted for putting undue emphasis on 3 characters (Archer, T'Pol and Tucker) rather than the ensemble, but at least that was a decision made from the outset, not in voyager when they effectively gave up on certain characters when ratings were poor.
The Acher/T'Pol/Tucker dynamic had echoes of Kirk/Spock?McCoy and actually worked well enough. if only the other characters weren't so boring and forgettable. I mean, could you really see someone buying a Hoshi or Mayweather action figure, or dressing up as them at a convention?

nyarlothothep

Exactly, Ent was very much focused on those three but to its own detriment. The problem is that the iconic triad of TOS worked well because the characters were so...characterized and memorable, they hit upon magic there and the whole concept was new. Going back to basics is something which is really risky from an artistic standpoint imo because you face the danger of rethreading old ground.

How can it be as good as before when it was already done so perfectly for its time. And imo the time bit is important because what worked then could very well not work at all now. In any case creating new ideas and new methods is way better than just imitating the past for the cheap buck of nostalgia. Ent had some very good potential characters, Hoshi in particular. But they were relegated to the status of cardboard cut outs, and even moreso they weren't iconic cardboard cut outs like Scotty, Sulu or Chekov quotable one liners.

I like to think of it like this; Voy intentionally went about messing up Star Trek. Enterprise was the buffoon that unintentionally made major errors, distant though that may be from the truth.

norrie rugger

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Exactly, Ent was very much focused on those three but to its own detriment. The problem is that the iconic triad of TOS worked well because the characters were so...characterized and memorable, they hit upon magic there and the whole concept was new. Going back to basics is something which is really risky from an artistic standpoint imo because you face the danger of rethreading old ground.

How can it be as good as before when it was already done so perfectly for its time. And imo the time bit is important because what worked then could very well not work at all now. In any case creating new ideas and new methods is way better than just imitating the past for the cheap buck of nostalgia. Ent had some very good potential characters, Hoshi in particular. But they were relegated to the status of cardboard cut outs, and even moreso they weren't iconic cardboard cut outs like Scotty, Sulu or Chekov quotable one liners.

I like to think of it like this; Voy intentionally went about messing up Star Trek. Enterprise was the buffoon that unintentionally made major errors, distant though that may be from the truth.

I agree with you that Hoshi was the most underused character ever, in Trek.
The character had the potential to be a show stealer, based on her potential growth.
She was also really well played by Linda Park, bringing a frightened and innocent character to screen. Her downfall was how she was written/directed from very early episodes

nyarlothothep

Yar it was a shame, she played the part very well. Although now that you mention it, if you watch scifidebris' reviews of ENT he makes the salient point that of the two female characters in ENT, one was a sex object and the other was frightened/weak all the time, not exactly a fair portrayal of women in a sci fi show which is meant to be progressive.

Rawr

Svalbard wrote: »

True.

Enterprise could also be faulted for putting undue emphasis on 3 characters (Archer, T'Pol and Tucker) rather than the ensemble, but at least that was a decision made from the outset, not in voyager when they effectively gave up on certain characters when ratings were poor.
The Acher/T'Pol/Tucker dynamic had echoes of Kirk/Spock?McCoy and actually worked well enough. if only the other characters weren't so boring and forgettable. I mean, could you really see someone buying a Hoshi or Mayweather action figure, or dressing up as them at a convention?

Very true.
The Kirk/Spock/McCoy dynamic was legendary. It's an awful pity that Archer/T'Pol/Trip simply couldn't shape up to that.

Archer was Kirk-lite (very-lite), T'Pol was 'Chesty LaRou Spock'...who was less fun, and Trip....what the hell was he supposed to be anyway?! It's difficult to believe that that character could operate a light-switch, let own a fast moving space-ship!

nyarlothothep

I think they were destined to fail. You can't parallel the unparallelable Its like trying to do a remake of Robocop or Total Recall, it will fall by the wayside.

norrie rugger

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Yar it was a shame, she played the part very well. Although now that you mention it, if you watch scifidebris' reviews of ENT he makes the salient point that of the two female characters in ENT, one was a sex object and the other was frightened/weak all the time, not exactly a fair portrayal of women in a sci fi show which is meant to be progressive.

Well, that is what I meant regarding Hoshi. She was a reluctant addition to the crew but showed the potential to grow the most. I mean she is meant to have a black belt in Akido (mayweather was a possible kick ass character also).

They just decided to keep her as a weak person, instead of developing her

Rawr

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I think they were destined to fail. You can't parallel the unparallelable Its like trying to do a remake of Robocop or Total Recall, it will fall by the wayside.

And sure enough, that's exactly what happened.
Robocop got a sequel trilogy a while back, made on the cheap. It was just plain horrid. It didn't even have any of the legendary Robocop score.

And Total Recall 'enjoyed' a very poor TV series.

nyarlothothep

Really? I didn't know about Total Recall, will have to youtube it. Robert Picardo was the taxi driver in the film, well the voice of the animatronic in his image. Apparently they're releasing a remake of robocop in 2010.

chopperbyrne

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Apparently they're releasing a remake of robocop in 2010.

I'll buy that for a dollar!

nyarlothothep

lol/groan :rolleyes: