Civil unrest may force June election...

is_that_so · 16-03-2009 10:57am

I think the "unstability" highlights how dangerous the interweb is for unsubstantiated rumours.

There is no evidence anywhere that these "massive cuts" are going to happen. Lots of rumours on it and if the government has managed to learn anything then they can ensure they get through the year by not embracing political suicide. But there is certainly a lot of anger at the lack of details on what is going to happen. We are not bankrupt as Iceland is but it would be nice to have the "pain" quantified in monetary terms. Personally suspect it will be income tax, property tax, tax on child benefit, pension relief and some modest welfare cuts over the next 12-18 months.

This is not 1970s Brixton or Birmingham. We've always had a certain amount of rage and anger anyway, usually diluted by a few drinks at the local hostelry. Remember the last bout of violence that occurred was based around a sectarian conflict.

This is not the 1950s and we are all not welfare spongers, despite the problems of fraud.

I think you'll find that the last wave of the 1980s was a mixture of both, although UK newspapers at the time had regular articles on the class of 86/87/88 where less than 10% of graduates stayed. Like open voluntary redundancy offers you have no control over who will go. In fact you are more likely to end up with a higher proportion of the people who are a drag on an organisation. Most of the rest of your proposals offer quick limited cash and in current condition are of no real benefit to the State. I would suggest that this type of privatisation would invite social unrest anyway.

You also overlook our inherently conservative nature as a populace and the general lack of interest in politics. Collectively we don't conclude anything or think about our politics even though we may jump up and down about it every so often.

oscarBravo · 16-03-2009 11:36am

Moderator note: keep the discussion civil, and don't personalise it.

AlekSmart · 16-03-2009 12:55pm

As is that so suspects there are so few revenue raising avenues open to the Minister that all of those are virtually certain.

However I believe that our native reluctance to accept reality will also ensure the passage of this "relatively modest" concept,when the reality screams BIG Cutbacks and NOW !

Before we can stimulate any new revenue Inflows we have to deal with the truly awesome OUTflows through the DSFA systems,which permeate through every area of Irish Society and Physche.

If this constant flow of benefit for which there has been no commensurate contribution continues then any and all talk of raising Taxation is null and void cos there wont be anybody earning anything to pay it.

silverharp · 16-03-2009 1:55pm

It doesnt matter what the assets are worth, the point is the gov is obviously confused and doesnt know what it is doing , the state needs to start downsizing and focus more on a smaller budget.

If you could run the state on a top rate income tax of 20% believe me you wouldnt need the IDA , companies would flock here to setup shop.

Permabear · 16-03-2009 2:46pm

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givyjoe81 · 16-03-2009 3:30pm

Without Medicaid etc what do you suggest the 30 to 40 million people do who cant afford adequate health insurance... go silently and die in the corner without a fuss. That is not a viable alternative, its simply isnt. The US system works great if you have the money to pay for it, AND ONLY THEN. Now thats inhumaine.

You provided one example from the Canadian health system, mistakes do happen and its unfortunate for that chap. But i wonder on the whole who is happier with their health system, Americans or their Canadian neighbours...

Have a look at Sicko, albeit obviously to be taken with a pinch of salt, there is far more than one example of US citisens being screwed over by their health care system. While your at it, take a look at that documentary on Wall Mart to see why so many cannot afford health insurance.

As for the 'highly regulated' insurance industry, they clearly aren't regulated enough with the disgusting tactics they employ to save a buck here and there.

peasant · 16-03-2009 3:43pm

Sorry to ask the bleedin' obvious question ....but what are you still doing here then?

Martyr · 16-03-2009 4:02pm

daddy won't pay for it :P
sorry donegalfella, just a wee joke

jim o doom · 16-03-2009 4:19pm

Donegal fella - from what I've been reading you are stating that the government should more or less step back from .. wel governing.

Correct me if I am wrong, but was it not allowing the free market forces rule decisions made by the banks and lack of regulation BY the government the cause for the massive down turn in the world economy?

And if we "ceased social welfare" - what of the people without jobs? are we to let them starve?
Your suggestions are inhumane in the extreme, ridiculous, impractical and the electorate would NEVER go for it.

Permabear · 16-03-2009 4:42pm

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jim o doom · 16-03-2009 4:56pm

that's an interesting belief; now I'm no great historian - I tend to land my idea's squarely in Common sense - where will these jobs spring up from? There would be a massive period of upheaval - and in this period, people with no jobs or savings would starve, until this new utopian land springs up with jobs for all and everyone gainfully employed.. common sense really..

And to ask you as you asked me - the idea that a true liberalized economy would work flawlessly; "what historical justification do you have for believing that?"

Martyr · 16-03-2009 5:06pm

*scratches head*

want total anarchy?
crime would go through the roof.

it would be like south africa, is that the kind of society you want?

seriously donegalfella, i could say worse but theres really no point arguing with this.

i don't disagree that its too much and alot of people definitely don't deserve to be getting it.

may i ask, are you working? are you paying your own rent? buying your own food? paying bills..etc?
its relevant to understand your point of view.

Permabear · 16-03-2009 5:06pm

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P. Breathnach · 16-03-2009 5:07pm

We already have jobs for everyone; there is any amount of work that might usefully be done. The problem is finding paid jobs.

Have you heard of the famine that we had in this country some years ago? It happened in the period that you have extolled as the best experience of laissez-faire economics in the history of mankind.

Elmo · 16-03-2009 5:19pm

An Post, ESB, The Airports, Dublin Bus, Bord Gais etc should be run at arms from the government and the government should treat them as Businesses and they should just bring competition into each area, but there is no need to sell them as it would really save any money and it wouldn't really raise any money. Your suggesting that semi-state bodies where awarded big grants over the past number of years, perhaps the grants or extra funding should be stopped rather than selling the businesses. E.g. if Dublin Bus need to downsize then let them but bring in competition while they do it.

Downsizing (or more realistically use of personnel) should be utilised in the Public services i.e Councils, HSE and Civil Service. I mean why should Semi-state bodies take the blame for the Gorvernment/banks and at the same time see the government rescue the Banks.

The ESB are a profitable company, how much money have the received from the Government in the last year?

Your assuming that all semi-state bodies are in receipt of government grants-in-aid.

I would rather see the DAA regain the tax payers money and start refunding the state for any funding before being sold to Private investors. For that matter any funding that the state provided.

Who would pay the top rate of tax would everyone pay the same rate ragardless of pay?

Permabear · 16-03-2009 5:28pm

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P. Breathnach · 16-03-2009 5:45pm

Jaysus! That's really pushing it.

It looks to me as if you are trying to force the facts to meet your opinion.

Permabear · 16-03-2009 5:55pm

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dresden8 · 16-03-2009 6:46pm

But it was the free market that left a million people to die.

P. Breathnach · 16-03-2009 6:49pm

I don't buy all your analysis, but I'm feeling too lazy to argue it out point by point. But note this simple point that flows from it: if an economy is shifted away from any sort of managed situation, you unleash forces that can be very destructive.

I think western people of the twenty-first century are likely to be less acquiescent or disempowered than their predecessors of the mid-eighteenth century. We'd all go online and arrange a revolution. It would not solve the problem, so we might have more revolutions.

Sesshoumaru · 16-03-2009 7:21pm

I have some experience of HK, my wife being from that fine city. I was there last December when I caught the flu as did my daughter. I went to one of the local medical centers in the Sha Tin district and was seen to extremely quickly by a doctor.

The whole process was very efficient with a nurse taking blood pressure, height and weight readings etc. Then noting down my symptoms on a computer system. I then went back out into the waiting room and 5 minutes later I was seen to by a doctor who had already reviewed my symptoms and vital statistics.

The whole visit for both myself and my daughter came to €50 and that included two bags of drugs/antibiotics for myself and my daughter. In the main reception it listed all the doctors who practice there and what there qualifications were. One of them had actually studied in Dublin.

The whole process was extremely efficient and the end result was my daughter and I got better very quickly. If DF is talking about giving Ireland a system like in Hong Kong then I am all for it.

It is not only medical care that is very efficient over there. Hong Kong has the most fantastic public transport system I have ever seen. But everything from the MTR to the Star Ferry is run privately. Maybe that has something to do with why it is so efficient and cheap?

Permabear · 16-03-2009 7:22pm

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Permabear · 16-03-2009 7:27pm

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dresden8 · 16-03-2009 8:49pm

Or else we'll end up like Somalia.

Permabear · 16-03-2009 9:02pm

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NewDubliner · 16-03-2009 9:44pm

When you abolish government.

P. Breathnach · 16-03-2009 9:52pm

Donegalfella doesn't want all government abolished; he wants the coercive bit maintained, so that the rich can hold on to their wealth.

Permabear · 16-03-2009 9:52pm

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NewDubliner · 16-03-2009 10:00pm

Ah yes, 'corporate governance'. Like in Anglo-Irish.

dresden8 · 16-03-2009 10:10pm

How about "Self-Regulation"

Civil unrest may force June election...

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