Civil unrest may force June election...

NewDubliner

dresden8 wrote: »

How about "Self-Regulation"

Hmm, yes, that's what happened in Anglo...nothing illegal was detected, just 'inappropriate' behaviour.

peasant

A semi-serious suggestion:

Would the mods perhaps agree to donegalfella having his own thread where he can copy and paste any post from the politics forum and give it his neo-feudal (or whatever his leanings are called these days) rebuttal?

So that the rest of us commies, Marxists, Stalinists, Leninists, Trotzkyists (or whatever he would like to call us) can discuss real politics in peace and on topic ? (for a change like )

Sesshoumaru

peasant wrote: »

A semi-serious suggestion:

Would the mods perhaps agree to donegalfella having his own thread where he can copy and paste any post from the politics forum and give it his neo-feudal (or whatever his leanings are called these days) rebuttal?

So that the rest of us commies, Marxists, Stalinists, Leninists, Trotzkyists (or whatever he would like to call us) can discuss real politics in peace and on topic ? (for a change like )

This country needs serious change and I for one welcome the input from DF. I believe the closest place we have to donegalfellas ideal is Hong Kong. Based on my personal experience I can say HK natives have a much better work ethic than the average Irish Joe. They are not indoctrinated from birth into a culture of entitlements and benefits. The whole place is run far more efficiently than our country. Public transport is better, health service is better, better public libraries and facilities..... nearly everything is better and they operate a minimal tax and government system in Hong Kong.

The status quo won't do anymore :mad:

Permabear

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peasant

donegalfella wrote: »

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See, I'm not too blind (or socialist or whatever) to see that the current system isn't working very well, that's bloomin obvious.
I doubt however that it is simply because Ireland is "too social". Ireland as it stands is too f*cked up ...for a multitude of reasons as there are for example:
- an inept, incompetent political class devoid of any leadership or vision (regardless of what party they belong to)
- a ruling class in society that through old contacts and money can buy the above or at least steer them in their interest
- a great silent majority that moans and groans at all the faults but never does anything to affect any sort of change
- an underbelly of society that is delibertaley kept quiet with over-generous payouts instead of incentivised to better themselves.

There needs to be change to all of that ...I agree.

I just can't help but utterly detest the uncontrolled and undirected "each for their own" neo-feudal approach that you are preaching.

We (as a human race) have been there, done that and it didn't work out particularly well for most of us.

There has to be an inbetween way.

Permabear

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peasant

donegalfella wrote: »

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No, it doesn't ...never has, never will.

Power corrupts, so does money. People in general are not "nice" and mostly only interested in their own benefit. I'm all for rewarding those that are clever and industrious, but the line has to be drawn when it comes to the exploitation of others. An unregulated, uncontrolled and directionless "free market" is the perfect breeding ground for exploitation. Be that the exploitation of individuals or of society or even that of whole other continents.

A free market approach only works "bottom up" for the short period after start-up until the least scrupulous have elbowed their way to the top ...and from then on its all "top down" again.

Dannyboy83

The way I see it, the approach that DonegalFella is suggesting is the way to go.
I would have no problem with the German socialist style if we had people who could maintain and manage it properly.

At the moment, we are somewhere in the middle, getting the worst of both worlds i.e. Being taxed like hell, and getting 0 benefits.

Frankly, I've lost all confidence that we could get people to run a proper socialist state unless perhaps we imported them from the continent.

The Irish approach needs to be, leave nothing to chance and always, always plan by murphys law.

Permabear

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portomar

donegalfella wrote: »

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you can argue it all you want DF, you are a radical right wing thinker. just like radical left wing thinkers i can look at what they say and believe there is some strength or other in the argument. ive always been fascinated at how closely radical theorys on any side of the political spectrum tend to meet when the reach the limits of radicalness, tend to meet eachother. they meet eachother in a fantasy land where all is sweetness and light, run either by the state or by private enterprise at the enth degree of efficiency. its never going to happen. im neither a socialist nor an anarchist. i believe people on the most part are self centred but that common sense dictates that they centralise some things, leading to government types as diverse as communist north korea and the united states of america. people in those societies will as free thinkers, either agree or disagree with that model.

thats life. go back as far as you want in history and show me an example of where your philosophy works? level the criticisms of the history of communism at marxists what do you get?? 'that wasn't communism', 'it would be different next time' etc., etc., till im so bored i could cry. we live in a socially democratic sytem. we have a small state welfare system by european
standards. DF, the vast majority of people would be terrified if you were put in charge and started to tear apart the aparatus of the state. so it will never happen, and all the posting on boards in the world wont change that.

now i for one am sick of every thread abcoming a 'feudalist/anarchic eutopia or bust' because id prefer some more sane political discussion. DF, you interest me but im ignoring your posts from now on if they are in a thread marked anything other than hard-nosed state building/political theory topics.

and here i am joining in in what im moaning about! i reckon its possible the government will fall...as a green voter im sorry to say that i wont be suprised that if its the greens who pull the rug....wont do them any favours in the long run

p.s. hong kong as DF's utopian vision? :rolleyes:

deadhead13

Donegalfella, do you have to monopolise practically every thread on this forum with your own personal view of a libertarian eutopia, that has never, and will never exist. It is getting very tedious.

NewDubliner

donegalfella wrote: »

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Or the exploitation of the weak by the strong.

Let's face it, Anglo is a prime example of free market unfettered by government interference, what did that get us?

silverharp

NewDubliner wrote: »

Let's face it, Anglo is a prime example of free market unfettered by government interference, what did that get us?

Sorry but they were gov. regulated , and are you ignoring the corrupt planning system and gov policy that fanned the flames of the bubble in the first place.
Also what do you understand a free market to mean , one if its basic assumptions it that inefficient companies go bankrupt, Anglo going bankrupt doesnt cast a shadow on the free market either way

Serenity Now!

silverharp wrote: »

Sorry but they were gov. regulated

You meant that in theory, I hope.

P. Breathnach

silverharp wrote: »

Sorry but they were gov. regulated

With a touch so light that it was close to imperceptible.

and are you ignoring the corrupt planning system and gov policy that fanned the flames of the bubble in the first place.

Much of the corruption and bad policy was connected with government giving more freedom to the market. [But I do enjoy the image of fanning the flames of a bubble.]

Also what do you understand a free market to mean , one if its basic assumptions it that inefficient companies go bankrupt, Anglo going bankrupt doesnt cast a shadow on the free market either way

What confidence! And Mrs.O'Leary's cow was a totally innocent creature. Events have consequences: the collapse of one major institution could possibly bring down others. It's not quite as simple as one corner shop losing out to a more efficient competitor on the opposite corner.

I am finding this doctrinaire right-wing stuff rather tiresome. Human society almost everywhere has evolved beyond the nature-red-in-tooth-and-claw stage (not very far, in some places). I don't want to be sent back there by utopians with a zealous glint in their eyes.

AlekSmart

Donegalfella, do you have to monopolise practically every thread on this forum with your own personal view of a libertarian eutopia, that has never, and will never exist. It is getting very tedious.

Ah Now,come on Lads....whilst I have this continuing nightmare of listening to Daniel O Donnell interrupting his Gig`s for a wee bit of Political stuff,I draw the line at accusing DF of "Monopolising" the Boards.ie stage.

He`s using the medium to offer his views for consideration and discussion and surely that`s what,in the final analysis,will enable us all to devise a way out of this manufactured morass we now inhabit.

Sure,some of his propositions make it seem as if he is actually a cross between Will Smith,Charles Bronson and Clint Eastwood but he does recognize that the Old Order by which our Political Leadership governed is effectively dead in the water with only a vacuum following on.

Mr.Micro

Originally Posted by NewDubliner View Post
Let's face it, Anglo is a prime example of free market unfettered by government interference, what did that get us?

I agree, a certain group of elite were allowed to conduct business as they saw fit and so called regulation was for others. I tried about 2 years ago to get a better rate of interest for my deposit account, an account I had had for 9 years, same address and the bank wanted new forms completed and several forms of ID. How about that for regulation? The irony is I had a letter the other week saying that the bank had been paying me the wrong rate (too low) for years.

silverharp wrote: »

Sorry but they were gov. regulated , and are you ignoring the corrupt planning system and gov policy that fanned the flames of the bubble in the first place.
Also what do you understand a free market to mean , one if its basic assumptions it that inefficient companies go bankrupt, Anglo going bankrupt doesnt cast a shadow on the free market either way

I think that regulation at any level where business was involved was minimal or none. The planning authority where I live is headed by an individual who is pro development and has granted permissions frequently despite the professional planners refusing on technical/environmental grounds. Where is the regulation here where political/personal motivation is allowed to overrule the professional opinion. It gives power to one person that is fertile ground for corruption and greed the rest is history. Greed and corruption it appears cannot be separated from big business and if these cannot be controlled under regualtion what hope would a so called free market have. I do agree one thing in principle that most Governments know nothing about the markets.

Permabear

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AlekSmart

Yes, I sense the lynch mob forming. Pitchforks and lighted torches, anyone?

Nah...too passè for our native physche on the National Saint`s Day surely......although a burning cross or two might suit the mood ???

givyjoe81

NewDubliner wrote: »

Hmm, yes, that's what happened in Anglo...nothing illegal was detected, just 'inappropriate' behaviour.

Really, is that the case..? If so why did the guards raid Anglo?? My law is a little fuzzy at this stage but i thought reckless trading could lead to the director/s responsible been held personnlly responsible for the debts from said trading, up to imprisonment??

Also while not a criminal offence, not paying your debts owed to a bank has results in just under 200 people being sent to jail over the last year or two, not too sure exactly as i the article i read was a number of weeks ago. Now sure 'Seany' could have been sent to the clink for not paying back the massive loan he kept shifting around?! Never mind the ramifications for the obvious reckless trading employed, after all the bank would have went under without gov intervention.

The Raven.

donegalfella wrote: »

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When you put it all together, it would seem like that. I wouldn’t pay any heed to it though. While I don’t agree with some of what you say, your posts are always interesting and very well written. It is refreshing to read posts where I don’t have to wreck my head wondering where one sentence ends and the next one begins, or wrestle with spelling and grammatical errors and a plethora of mystifying abbreviations etc.

I don’t have a problem with people expressing their political views, unless of course they pose a threat to society. My own views are neither extreme right nor extreme left, but somewhere in between. There is validity on each side, and there is potential for corruption on each side. The planning corruption in recent times shows that no matter how much ‘regulation’ there is, there is nothing a nice brown envelope won’t solve.

Back on topic, I do believe that civil unrest could bring about an early election. Biffo will come back from America bragging about his 'great' achievements, and how it was all worthwhile. They will probably never tell us how much all these so-called 'trade-missions' are costing the taxpayer. The next budget might just be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Martyr

plenty of town councilors went abroad too, which is all paid for with taxes.

givyjoe81

The Raven. wrote: »

When you put it all together, it would seem like that. I wouldn’t pay any heed to it though. While I don’t agree with some of what you say, your posts are always interesting and very well written. It is refreshing to read posts where I don’t have to wreck my head wondering where one sentence ends and the next one begins, or wrestle with spelling and grammatical errors and a plethora of mystifying abbreviations etc.

I don’t have a problem with people expressing their political views, unless of course they pose a threat to society. My own views are neither extreme right nor extreme left, but somewhere in between. There is validity on each side, and there is potential for corruption on each side. The planning corruption in recent times shows that no matter how much ‘regulation’ there is, there is nothing a nice brown envelope won’t solve.

Back on topic, I do believe that civil unrest could bring about an early election. Biffo will come back from America bragging about his 'great' achievements, and how it was all worthwhile. They will probably never tell us how much all these so-called 'trade-missions' are costing the taxpayer. The next budget might just be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Well this isn't an essay competition and dressing bull sh1t up uncessarily inelaborate english doesn't stop it being bull sh1t. Nor does it mean these post's make more valid points than those posted by the dyslexic's out there! Nor do i believe in this labelling of left and right etc... Your views either make sense and stack up or they dont... no need to complicate things.

This isn't school so as long as the message is fairly clearly understand, whats the big deal!

As for the trade missions no official budget was allocated, afaik, its just bring back the receipts and we'll sort it out. As for civil unrest, where will that get us.. Enda Kenny?!

peasant

donegalfella wrote: »

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allright then ...cards on the table ...

The emergency budget is declared, people are running riot in the streets, the governement has fled, the people have voted you tea-shock by popular acclaim.

What exactly would you do? (other than waffle eloquently)

Let's hear your inauguration speech and your programme for governement

Permabear

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peasant

donegalfella wrote: »

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Sorry, but that's waffle.

Your concrete proposals please for the 8th of April, the day after the budget, the day you're facing the masses that have just elected you taoiseach.

Martyr

Instead, he would rely on free individuals in a free society to create spontaneous order based around voluntary collaboration

like they do in brothels? where women, some of them just teenagers, are kidnapped from poverty stricken countries, smuggled into richer nations and used as sex slaves because they live in fear of death?

i suppose we should allow cannabalism and children to have sex with pedophiles also?

after all, people should be free to do what they want, when they want and how they want without anyone objecting.

the perfect world - you obviously have it all worked out, DF.. :rolleyes:

thebman

donegalfella wrote: »

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So step one, make 90% of the public sector redundant. Probably bankrupt the state in our current state :P

I think you'd end up with the police coming down with blue flu too and you'd be overthrown in a day or two if not killed during the riots.

Anyway since your policy does involve letting 90% of the public sector go, good luck going door to door to get the votes in the first place. Kind of demonstrates why this country will never go down this road.

P. Breathnach

donegalfella wrote: »

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So you stop paying Social Welfare, close down various social services, you lay off medical workers, teachers, and various public service administrators, cut many grant schemes...

You keep the Gardai to protect private property. What do you do with state-owned property?

What's next on your programme?

Permabear

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