Your Ladies Lounge = Can we have your thoughts please!

Jules

Ah excellent this is what i like to see, good and bad!

The LL meet ups will be back as a sticky, after the cocktail night happens, if the girls want to meet up they know there is a thread for this, and i hope would be helpful enough to point them in that direction!

As Dragan it is a two step process and will take both Mods and Users alike to help sort things out, with Users reporting posts and Mods taking steps. I feel this forum has a great user base and also has a lot of lurkers, whom i would encourage to take a step up and say hi.. we don't bite... well unless you ask nicely then we will send you to S&S!

All of your points are being taken onboard and hopefully you will see some changes in the future.

BUT...

I would like to say again i don't want us to lose our sense of humour, especially when we need to laugh!

dfx-

*sticks out over parapet*

I don't see that there is much to complain about on tLL and its direction and where it has come from.

I also don't quite 'get' what shellyboo is getting at, but that is probably just my standpoint. I don't see a whole lot of defending a gender, but explaining and discussing the female mind which personally is a complete minefield with a blindfold and my legs bound together and which tLL has helped - I stress helped :pac: - navigate. That's not defending anything. I don't see the safe haven argument to be anything other than an argument for exclusivity. Are purely female issues not spoken of or something? Are there any purely female issues missing? It is a genuine question - I do not and could not know the answer either way..

I also quite like majd's recent quip to one poster's "this is the Ladies Lounge, deal with it" argument. Again alternatively, I had and have major issue with the moderation of what became another KYN, which I expressed at the time. Still I find it very difficult to say that tLL is not well-guided and regressing.

*ducks beneath parapet*

JC 2K3

OldGoat wrote: »

On the 'Men in here' issue I have to de-lurk for a moment and post. tLL is a victim of it's own success. Men are lurking and posting here because the forum is fun - interesting - topical - educational and it's about the ONLY forum where that happens. I seldom post here because I realise it is the Ladies room but I lurk all the time. It's very difficult not to respond, to take a side or to join the ranks.
tLL is wonderful but until there is somewhere else as broad-rangeing as tLL that is open to men AND women I'm afraid ye are stuck with us.
(Lurk mode ON)

QFT!

I actually suggested a male parallel to TLL when the Men's Health forum was being proposed - link. There was a positive response, but that was about it.

There're a lot of threads on TLL that aren't gender specific at all, the recent life plan topic being an example. You wouldn't get the same quality of discussion on AH, and I can't think of another forum that it could be posted (and if there is one, I doubt it'd get much traffic).

It's one of my favourite forums to read, but not because I'm necessarily interested in "women's issues" or anything, but because I like to read people's outlooks on aspects of life, and you don't really find that elsewhere for whatever reason.

shellyboo

Dragan wrote: »

the only way to deal with any of those issues is a two part attack by both the Mods and the regular posters here. If you see something being led off topic then you report the post so that the Mods are aware of it. Often times a user will see something quicker than a Mod, simply because Mods are far outnumbered by us users here.

Oh I always do! I'm a sneaky little tattletale, me

Dragan wrote: »

T'is a hard one to solve.

Much agreed

Dragan wrote: »

The simple fact of it is that ANY of the threads along those lines ( men seeking advice ) got response, so is it really an issue for people in the forum or is it just an issue for us that are vocal about it?

You have a point there

Dragan wrote: »

With regard to the "male domination of boards.ie" issue....males make up the higher percentage of the population. It's not a domination thing, it's a numbers thing.

Of course, that's what I meant. More men on boards = a male-dominated atmosphere, attitude, whatever. Or do you not think so?

Dragan wrote: »

I also wouldn't think this place is a "safe haven" plenty of females that post on boards don't post here, because it doesn't interest them.

But I would say that they don't post here BECAUSE it's not a safe haven. Obviously some are just not interested... but I know boardsies who don't post in here specifically because of the number of, and attitudes of, the male posters. They see it as a battle, and at times, so do I. But I love a good argument, so I keep coming back for more... others don't bother.

dfx- wrote: »

*sticks out over parapet*

I don't see a whole lot of defending a gender, but explaining and discussing the female mind which personally is a complete minefield with a blindfold and my legs bound together and which tLL has helped - I stress helped :pac: - navigate.

I don't think that's what the forum should be for though, dfx. The Soccer Forum isn't for me to use to understand the pysche of a soccer fan... it's for soccer fans to discuss soccer. Do you see the distinction I'm making?

Basically, I don't feel we should have to be explaining the female mind to people. I don't think the forum should serve that purpose.

dfx- wrote: »

That's not defending anything. I don't see the safe haven argument to be anything other than an argument for exclusivity. Are purely female issues not spoken of or something? Are there any purely female issues missing? It is a genuine question - I do not and could not know the answer either way..

On the rest of boards? No, they're not spoken of really. I'm not asking for exclusivity, I want men in the forum... but I'll make the LGB analogy again. You wouldn't go into the LGB forum and question their lifestyle and expect them to defend themselves against negative stereotypes... that's their forum, their safe haven where they can have discussions free of the (possibly homophobic, or just plain ignorant) attitudes of your regular Joe Boardsie.

Do you see what I mean? If there's no special status (or something, that's not the right word) for women then how is this the Ladies' Lounge?! It's not a community of ladies at the moment. It's a group of people talking ABOUT women, which is a very different thing.

Now, I could be totally talking out of my arse and that's not the kind of forum anyone but me wants... if people like it the way it is, discussing the female mind, talking about relationships, talking about men then let's keep it the way it is I'm just giving my ver subjective, personal, opinion.

Nevyn

Tbh I see it as a difference in discussion styles, there is a difference between
sharing and debating. For the most part women share and men debate/argue
and there are times when the two differing styles clash and women who do not
want to argue 9 rounds when they are trying to share their experience or opinion will just walk away and disconnect and not post.

JC 2K3

I generally like the debates when they arise here (oh god I'm adhering to a stereotype, maybe I should try this "sharing" thing), but if they're not welcome in threads, maybe a [Sharing] tag or something similar could be added to the start of thread titles where contesting points is discouraged?

jellie

This thread is kind of turning into why ive stopped paying as much attention to tLL. Shelly has given her opinion & now has to keep defending it over & over.

I think she has made some good points. if she wants to keep defending them then thats her choice obviously, but i said what i wanted to say ages ago so i think im just going to stop reading it now

thanks to the mods, yous do a good job

shellyboo

sar84 wrote: »

This thread is kind of turning into why ive stopped paying as much attention to tLL. Shelly has given her opinion & now has to keep defending it over & over.

I think she has made some good points. if she wants to keep defending them then thats her choice obviously, but i said what i wanted to say ages ago so i think im just going to stop reading it now

thanks to the mods, yous do a good job

LOL

Perhaps all would be well if I just stfu :P:o:)

OldGoat

shellyboo wrote: »

Perhaps all would be well if I just stfu :P:o:)

Ahhh no. Interesting points well made are always going to help shape the forum.:)

Ooooops, I forgot to lurk.

Jules

Well said Sar, this thread is turning into a back and fort, point to point, agruement.. im waiting for some one to pull out statistics! The thread was started to see how we can better the forum and yet its starting to be a showcase for what is wrong. People sharing opinions and it turning into a debate! This is not a debating thread, its a sharing thread...

/me goes off to tag thread!

Queen-Mise

I would like to post here, but I felt there is too many men just waiting to pounce, one of the few times I went to post, I saw it.

I think Thaedydal had started a thread about fanny care (something of that level) the thread wasn't half as interesting as the title (i vaguely remember). A male poster came in and said something on the lines 'i thought this thread was going to be far more interesting than the title suggested'.

It turned me off at the time, I try to avoid in RL explaining myself to men, I'm definitely not doing it while typing online. I have a lot of left of centre view on life, relationships, morals, that i have learnt in life. My experience is that they drive men nuts, I would like to post, but not justifying myself.

Apols if that sounds disjointed.

Jules

As a poster, one thing i hate is having guys disect what im saying, and analysis it down to the bones of it. It doesnt need to be done i think, fair enough giving an opinion is one thing, but me reading a post and feeling like i have been professionally analysised!

JC 2K3

That's the way internet forums generally work though. If you don't restrict posters in some way, then debating and contesting points will be seen as fair game. If you want this forum to operate differently to the norm, then it has to be enforced.

It's a bit like in Christianity, where they ask for a Christian only response in certain threads so that Atheists don't come in and turn topics into debates, or PI, where the focus is helping the OP, not debating or joking. Rules have to be made and mods have to enforce them if a certain tone or etiquette is desired.

Jules

JC 2K3 wrote: »

That's the way internet forums generally work though. If you don't restrict posters in some way, then debating and contesting points will be seen as fair game. If you want this forum to operate differently to the norm, then it has to be enforced.

It's a bit like in Christianity, where they ask for a Christian only response in certain threads so that Atheists don't come in and turn topics into debates, or PI, where the focus is helping the OP, not debating or joking. Rules have to be made and mods have to enforce them if a certain tone or etiquette is desired.

Really.. oh so there is where we have been going wrong!

/headdesk!

JC 2K3

Nevyn

JC 2K3 wrote: »

That's the way internet forums generally work though.

Which is why you often see women posting only on women orientated sites
which have a different ethos then the ethos of the argument.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

If you don't restrict posters in some way, then debating and contesting points will be seen as fair game. If you want this forum to operate differently to the norm, then it has to be enforced.

There are plenty of forums on the site which do operate differently
it is just a case of saying no being an argumentative git for the sake of it
respect peoples opinions and experiences.

There are ways to disagree with someone respectfully rather then breaking
them and their post apart.

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Rules have to be made and mods have to enforce them if a certain tone or etiquette is desired.

Agreed.

Stheno

Following up to my original reply, much of what shellyboo has posted would be how I feel.

I really enjoy the threads that explore feminism etc, and frankly find them educational, and extremely interesting but far too often they are hijacked by bitter male posters who see them as the "feminazi's" out in force.

From a personal point of view, it's fantastic to have people who are knowledgeable about the theoretical side of feminism there to post information and studies/statistics about the topic, and as well to be able to compare/contrast those to my own or other's individual experience.

Far too often I find myself retiring from such threads or just ignoring them as they lose their way.

Yet I derive great value from those threads in many ways and they contribute to how I as a person think.

It would be great to see them continue but with less negative male input.

Thanks Shelly!

Crumble Froo

good thread here, and a generally good forum. i go through phases of posting in here, depending on the threads and my mood... as one of those girls who doesnt tend to 'get' quite a lot of other girls, this is an interesting place for me, though ill tend to lurk more than post, as i do often feel taht ill end up having to defend my opinion, or explain it, which i just don't often want to do.

other than that, yeah, there are a lot more blokes posting in here, but there are quite a few notable ones who definitely add to the forum and have a lot of interesting input that i quite enjoy reading.

i think there's the blokes who are here to make bloke-ish comments and then the ones who are here to genuinely contribute to the thread/forum.

Dragan

Genuine question, i am honestly failing to see the "argument" side of this thread. I see people posting opinions, questions and counter opinions.

I think it's a bit much to look at simply being engaged by someone opinion enough to ask a question or offer your own opinion as argumentative?

I might be missing something, but it's threads like this one i think we need more of. People are posting, reading other peoples posts, referencing them and asking questions etc. It's all being done politely.

It's pretty much exactly what you want in a forum, no?

shellyboo

Thaedydal wrote: »

it is just a case of saying no being an argumentative git for the sake of it
respect peoples opinions and experiences.

There are ways to disagree with someone respectfully rather then breaking
them and their post apart.

This is pretty much what I meant, basically

Dragan wrote: »

Genuine question, i am honestly failing to see the "argument" side of this thread. I see people posting opinions, questions and counter opinions.

I think it's a bit much to look at simply being engaged by someone opinion enough to ask a question or offer your own opinion as argumentative?

I can see where they're coming from though, Dragan. Myself and yourself are fairly argumentative/opinionated/debatey people... I can see how other posters might go into a thread, see (for example) me and you debating over the finer points of eachothers' posts and think "Oh I'm not posting in here, the same will happen to my post and I don't want that".

Like, what you and I see as debate, others may see as argumentative, basically.

Nevyn

Dragan wrote: »

Genuine question, i am honestly failing to see the "argument" side of this thread. I see people posting opinions, questions and counter opinions.

Oh look you are a bloke after all

Dragan wrote: »

I think it's a bit much to look at simply being engaged by someone opinion enough to ask a question or offer your own opinion as argumentative?

It not what you do it's the way that you do it.
There are ways to ask and offer opinion with out it being confrontational.
You do that pretty well here unfortunately a lot of male posters don't
hell even I have had to change how I would post in other forums to
fit in with the style here.

Some male posters with their own agendas are posting and pushing their opinions derailing threads,
they are not open to having their minds changed only in proving they are right
and driving home why they are right.

What shellyboo said is right some people see a debate others see an argument.
It is not just women who are like that, some men are the same.

Nevyn

Dragan here is a prime example of a post

<snip>

It is from the "do you have plans thread" in which posters mostly women are sharing
what their aims goals dreams and ambitions are.

And then we get this post, which is frankly a slap in the face.

I have reported it but posts like that are derailing, thread spoiling and off putting
to anyone who has read down do the thread and wanted to share thier plans/hopes/dreams
or how they stride or drift through life.

watna

queen-mise wrote: »

I would like to post here, but I felt there is too many men just waiting to pounce, one of the few times I went to post, I saw it.

I think Thaedydal had started a thread about fanny care (something of that level) the thread wasn't half as interesting as the title (i vaguely remember). A male poster came in and said something on the lines 'i thought this thread was going to be far more interesting than the title suggested'.

It turned me off at the time, I try to avoid in RL explaining myself to men, I'm definitely not doing it while typing online. I have a lot of left of centre view on life, relationships, morals, that i have learnt in life. My experience is that they drive men nuts, I would like to post, but not justifying myself.

Apols if that sounds disjointed.

I agree that the flippant threads by men really p*ss me off. Some of the men on this forum are just great and I love the fact that they engage and have a proper discussion on things without resorting to gender stereotypes etc. You're obviously always going to get a few that just do not get what we do here.

On this note - I reported a post that absolutely ENFURIATED me the other day. It was on the sports bra thread. Seriously, I was enraged. Wibbs had deleted it within 3 minutes of me reporting it. I Wibbs!)The mods really do their best to keep the atmosphere we all want. There is always going to be posters that try to disrupt what goes on here - that's part of every forum. All you can do is report it.

Most men here really make me feel great, a lot of male posters come across very well in this forum and quite often it makes me feel quite positive that there is such a number of these kind of men around - but there is always going to be a few dicks.

g'em

Folks can we try not to single individual users out when discussing our likes and dislikes on the forum? If we want to create a forum that's about respect and acceptance we need to extend that courtesy to others before expecting it in return. Ta muchly.

Keep Feedbacking

FruitLover

Jules wrote: »

As a poster, one thing i hate is having guys disect what im saying, and analysis it down to the bones of it

In fairness, there's no shortage of women in this forum offering (backlash) armchair psychoanalysis either. Particularly when anyone posts anything critical of anything (not necessarily of women).

This forum seems to be gradually moving away from being a 'discussion' forum, and turning into an 'agreement' forum. It's a pity, because I used to regularly see interesting thread titles here appearing on the Board front page.

JC 2K3

Thaedydal wrote: »

There are ways to disagree with someone respectfully rather then breaking
them and their post apart..

Thaedydal wrote: »

There are ways to ask and offer opinion with out it being confrontational.

In the most non confrontational and respectful way possible, I'd like to raise the following point:

What is "breaking [someone] and their post apart" to one person is standard internet debating to another person, what's fine in one culture may be considered disrespectful in another. And the internet is a whole other culture than real life. There's also the fact that through a typographic medium, it's not always easy to distinguish between what's confrontational or not, and it can be rather subjective. Like Dragan, I don't really see this thread as containing confrontational posts or being very argumentative at all....

I do however acknowledge that in the past I have stepped over the line and joined in or started heated debates that were unnecessary here (There is some trollish blood in me, I'll admit ), and for that I apologise. I generally just lurk here now.

Nevyn

This isn't just about 'standard internet debating' this strikes to the core of one of the major differences in how people dicuss things and differences along gender lines.

It goes right the way back to those dead greeks and thier arguing and debating
with out the input and interference of women.
Thankfully in pre christain times it was part of our customs that a woman had the right
to interupt any converstion men where having and be heard.

The standard internet discussion/argument is male cultural communication due to the
fact that from the very start and up to pretty recently the internet was for the most
part a male preserve. This even can be seen on this every site.

Times change and so do the standards and the culture when it is no longer as male
originated.

Dragan

Thaedydal wrote: »

This isn't just about 'standard internet debating' this strikes to the core of one of the major differences in how people dicuss things and differences along gender lines.

It goes right the way back to those dead greeks and thier arguing and debating
with out the input and interference of women.
Thankfully in pre christain times it was part of our customs that a woman had the right
to interupt any converstion men where having and be heard.

The standard internet discussion/argument is male cultural communication due to the
fact that from the very start and up to pretty recently the internet was for the most
part a male preserve. This even can be seen on this every site.

Times change and so do the standards and the culture when it is no longer as male
originated.

I have to be honest and say i am not buying this Thae.

If you post something, other people can quote it and respond with either there own thoughts or there questions. This leads , sometimes, to posts looking like they have been dissected. So what?

If you want to be able to post your thoughts etc with no questions or comebacks then people should start a blog ( it's quite rewarding ). If you post on a forum then you are automatically entering yourself into the sphere of debate. No?

Sure the post/quote nature of the internet and message forums is a product of the medium?

Dudess

Love The Ladies' Lounge! Great discussions, really fascinating topics. No prob with the lads posting - the vast, vast majority of them have superb contributions to make. Some very interesting, intelligent guys posting here. There's the odd sh1t-stirrer (as with any forum) and the moderators are always super-quick. Very fair moderation also - probably some of the fairest on Boards.

It started off as a bit "oh my god I'm so girlie!" and progressed to becoming the very opposite. Some awesome women here.

Well done to all involved!

Nevyn

Dragan wrote: »

I have to be honest and say i am not buying this Thae.

One of my friends did her degree thesis on just this topic.

Dragan wrote: »

If you post something, other people can quote it and respond with either there own thoughts or there questions. This leads , sometimes, to posts looking like they have been dissected. So what?

Really no matter how personal ?

Dragan wrote: »

If you want to be able to post your thoughts etc with no questions or comebacks then people should start a blog ( it's quite rewarding ). If you post on a forum then you are automatically entering yourself into the sphere of debate. No?

No. Discussion does not always equal debate were you try and counter and discredit the other persons points to force them and others to change their minds.

How many online discussion sites which have a predominantly female posters have you read ?
Did you know that most of them are strictly members only and not open
in order to foster the type of female discussion rather then debate ?