What's the point of D class?

Tim_Murphy

Back a few years on Irish shows there was generally two sets of rules; semi-pro and pro. The rule sets evolved over time and we ended up with A, B and C class rules, which were roughly the same on each show. IMO that was/is a pretty good structure, with each class being a good step up from the previous. Now there seems to be an introduction of ‘D class’ rules on some shows, which are pretty much the same as C class, just watered down a little. The differences are far as I can tell are, a) bigger gloves, b) one less round and c) no knees to the head standing.

Is it just me or does having both C and D class on a show not make any sense? It’s confusing for spectator and is unnecessary anyway. If somebody is able to do a D class fight then they would be able for a C class one and if somebody isn’t up for a C class fight then they shouldn’t be fighting on a show IMO, they’d be better off sticking to the league. *

Am I alone in thinking this?

* Possible exception here being for teenagers, using D class rules as the ruleset for them probably is a good idea.

cowzerp

The more little steps people can make the better chance of getting new people to try out the sport, to me there is 3 real actual mma classes, a full pro,b cage rage rules pro and c old semi pro and then the other 2 which are introdutory d and e!

it does get a bit confusing though..

i think there should be more actual C class shows for people to step up from Marks league and try stepping up a level..

Tim_Murphy

cowzerp wrote: »

The more little steps people can make the better chance of getting new people to try out the sport, to me there is 3 real actual mma classes, a full pro,b cage rage rules pro and c old semi pro and then the other 2 which are introdutory d and e!

Having A & B class on a show only really makes sense if there are elbows in A class. Otherwise its basically B and B+.

i think there should be more actual C class shows for people to step up from Marks league and try stepping up a level..

Agreed. If there was more dedicated amateur shows (or if they were run as events like the league), then there would probably be a place there for D class.

cowzerp

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Having A & B class on a show only really makes sense if there are elbows in A class. Otherwise its basically B and B+.

I agree with this, but it is the promoters decision of what to allow or not to allow, i'm running an event in june and as things stand now it will be a B,C and D class show-this is for 2 reasons! none of the lads are ready for A class yet, and its new to the area so i want it to look as tidy as possible-;)

Nothingcompares

is D class MMA league rules?

mark.leonard

I announced at the most recent leg of the League in Galway that people should consider the League Rule Set as E class as it has a number of differences between it and the D class rules we see in shows.

Roper

Ngggaaaaagghhhh had a big reply and I deleted it.

Basically:
Small steps up are good sometimes.
Sometimes the current steps are too big
I would sooner see a guy hang out getting a lot of ring experience before he was ready for pro rather than throwing him straight in or keeping him locked in the gym.
Big gloves are good sometimes


All of that looks crap out of parargraphs. I'll have another go later. You haven't seen the last of me Murphy.

Nothingcompares

mark.leonard wrote: »

I announced at the most recent leg of the League in Galway that people should consider the League Rule Set as E class as it has a number of differences between it and the D class rules we see in shows.

i'm not being deliberately obtuse but are the differences in the type of protective gear? Or are there head shots some where?

Tim_Murphy

I would sooner see a guy hang out getting a lot of ring experience before he was ready for pro rather than throwing him straight in or keeping him locked in the gym.

That’s what the league is for.

I'm all for incremental steps as long as it logical. League (formerly would have been called D by some) -> C -> B -> A makes sense. Any more than that and the differences between ruleset become small. If a person is genuinely able for D class then the only thing potentially stopped them from doing C class is confidence. If they are not really ready for C then they are not really ready for D either.
If you go down the road of having a different ruleset for every little step where does it end? B class with big gloves, B class with small gloves, B class with elbows standing etc.

Tim_Murphy

Nothingcompares wrote: »

i'm not being deliberately obtuse but are the differences in the type of protective gear? Or are there head shots some where?

League: no head shots
D class: League + punches to head standing.

mark.leonard

The differences in the E->A rules sets are sufficient to justify there existence IMO. At each stage there is a chance to focus on a different aspect on your way to becoming the Next Ultimate Fighter:

E - no head shots, no striking at different levels, no elbows to the legs
This class is about getting your feet wet in MMA, maybe you are from a standup back ground or a grappler and want to see what the pressure of MMA feels like. E class is about feeling the difference between training in a gym and competing in as safe a manner as possible.

D - No shin pads, (allows head punches standing with big gloves) no knees or kicks to the head allowed.
This class sends the message to ground fighters that they must get their stand up in order. There is a margin for error because of the extra padding on the gloves and the lack of knees to the head. In Thai boxing there are no knees to the head until well into their experience levels, we should be the same but head shots standing are needed too.

C - No elbows, no head shots on the ground, 3 minute rounds.
For someone from a grappling background or indeed anyone from another background this level should be about being able to control where the fight takes place, in essence the clinch. Your stand up should have improved with your D class matches exposing any gaps so its safe to assume that stand up is fine at this level. However the ability to get in trouble is greater given the knees to the head and the kicks. If your clinch is soft you will eat a lot of knees and not be able to move the fight to the safety of the ground (no head shots there) to recover.

B - No elbows, 4 minute rounds
This class is all about developing your ability to defend and attack with Ground and Pound. Grappling is one thing, but this is the class that ensures you can do it under the most pressure. Its pro level but is designed for those who might prefer the option of going to work on Monday without being all cut up. Fitness required for 3 * 4 minute rounds is slightly more attainable by those not training full time

A - All in, 5 minute rounds
This level is for those who are willing to put the extra time and dedication into getting fit enough for three five minute rounds, and are prepared to pay the price of taking elbows to the mush. At this level should be the elite, fighters who are prepared to take a match with anyone else at their weight.

Jason Mc

C class punchs and kicks to head are allowed while standing while in D class they are not

That seems quite a big difference. There has been quite a few knock outs at C class at the shows I've been too.


Then in B class no elbows and A class elbows are allowed.


Thats the way it is at Chaos, EFR, Strabane Fight night, UOC and Ultimate Conflict

Nothingcompares

Thanks Mark I'll be sure to refer to that again when I forget.

I disagree with Tim in that I don't think it's hugely important that there is a consistancy across promotions for rule sets. The most important thing is that the individual knows what level they are signing up to fight at and what the exact rule set is well in advance. The fact that one organisation may required shin pads at this letter while another doesn't really isn't important.

The only query I would have is what's judged to be "professional" and what's judged to be "amateur" from a record point of view. Are all fights with head shots on the ground professional? Perhaps someone who lost a couple of fights at C and B level might say their professional record is 1-0 because they one their last A fight.

Tim_Murphy

E - no head shots, no striking at different levels, no elbows to the legs
This class is about getting your feet wet in MMA, maybe you are from a standup back ground or a grappler and want to see what the pressure of MMA feels like. E class is about feeling the difference between training in a gym and competing in as safe a manner as possible.

D - No shin pads, (allows head punches standing with big gloves) no knees or kicks to the head allowed.
This class sends the message to ground fighters that they must get their stand up in order. There is a margin for error because of the extra padding on the gloves and the lack of knees to the head. In Thai boxing there are no knees to the head until well into their experience levels, we should be the same but head shots standing are needed too.

C - No elbows, no head shots on the ground, 3 minute rounds.
For someone from a grappling background or indeed anyone from another background this level should be about being able to control where the fight takes place, in essence the clinch. Your stand up should have improved with your D class matches exposing any gaps so its safe to assume that stand up is fine at this level. However the ability to get in trouble is greater given the knees to the head and the kicks. If your clinch is soft you will eat a lot of knees and not be able to move the fight to the safety of the ground (no head shots there) to recover.

This is the best justification I’ve seen for having C and D classes but if you are going to have different classes for these differences why not have them for other differences too?
What about a class with head kicks but with shin guards and big MMA gloves? (This would be a big difference IMO).

At the end of the day we could come with up with any number of incremental steps to go from league to pro rules, that doesn’t mean there should be a ruleset for each one. At some point it becomes silly. Some of the rules in D class I like for that level (no knees to the head) but I think it makes a lot more sense to incorporate that into the current C (semi-pro) rule set rather than spanning off a new ruleset to confuse people with.

I said above that any body who is ready for D should be ready for C. Mark and Barry, as two guys who run gyms do you really think you have fighters who are able for D but not C?

mark.leonard

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

This is the best justification I’ve seen for having C and D classes but if you are going to have different classes for these differences why not have them for other differences too?
What about a class with head kicks but with shin guards and big MMA gloves? (This would be a big difference IMO).

Because that would be too many, I think the 5 tier system is sufficient.

Tim_Murphy wrote:

At the end of the day we could come with up with any number of incremental steps to go from league to pro rules, that doesn’t mean there should be a ruleset for each one. At some point it becomes silly. Some of the rules in D class I like for that level (no knees to the head) but I think it makes a lot more sense to incorporate that into the current C (semi-pro) rule set rather than spanning off a new ruleset to confuse people with.

One thing at a time - if you have no knees to the head at C then you get to figure out good clinch AND g'n'p defence when moving from C to B, too much IMO. Who is confused by the way, I have a very succint chart on www.TribalWarfare.ie to explain the allowed techniques in each rule set.

Tim_Murphy wrote:

I said above that any body who is ready for D should be ready for C. Mark and Barry, as two guys who run gyms do you really think you have fighters who are able for D but not C?

Let me reflect that question to you then, can you think of anyone you train with who would be fine swinging punches with more padding on the gloves, but would come a cropper from bad posture leading to a knee in the face? I can certainly think of a few. Should they just wait until they fix all those issues before fighting? Maybe, but its better for the gym, the promotion and the fighter to get them involved sooner and let them compete. Think of the differences in gym morale when there is a team of guys trainign for a show versus just the one or two elite training for it.

Tim_Murphy

C class punchs and kicks to head are allowed while standing while in D class they are not

That’s what I allowed thought D class was alright. In Dublin now, and in Marks show, D class also had punches to the head.

I disagree with Tim in that I don't think it's hugely important that there is a consistancy across promotions for rule sets.

I don’t its hugely important, but I do think it is advantageous.

Roper

All this topic tells me is that all the promoters need to sit down together and come up with a set of rules that go across the board and are for the good of the sport in this country. I'd happily drop any ruleset if we could do that.

Tim_Murphy

Because that would be too many, I think the 5 tier system is sufficient.

6 would be too many but 5 isn’t?

One thing at a time - if you have no knees to the head at C then you get to figure out good clinch AND g'n'p defence when moving from C to B, too much IMO.

People would be working on good clinch and wrestling from day 1, not from C to B. Good clinch is good clinch and is necessary at all levels. People can get manhandled in the clinch with or without knees to the head.

Who is confused by the way, I have a very succint chart on www.TribalWarfare.ie to explain the allowed techniques in each rule set.

Well I get asked quite a bit about the different rulesets by people, so I guess the answer would be people who haven’t read the rules page on the TW site.

Tim_Murphy

Roper wrote: »

All this topic tells me is that all the promoters need to sit down together and come up with a set of rules that go across the board and are for the good of the sport in this country. I'd happily drop any ruleset if we could do that.

Was there not a meeting up north a while back to do this?

Jason Mc

I didn't know that D class allowed head shots in the southern shows.


The rules on our wesite

www.chaosfightingchampionships.com

were agreed at a meeting with all the currently run shows in the north


Just noticed our round system on the site needs updating
a class 3*5
b class 3*4
c class 3*3
d class 2*3

mark.leonard

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

6 would be too many but 5 isn’t?

Yes at some point you have to say enough, stop trying to make the rule sets more complicated Tim!

Tim_Murphy wrote:

People would be working on good clinch and wrestling from day 1, not from C to B. Good clinch is good clinch and is necessary at all levels. People can get manhandled in the clinch with or without knees to the head.

Of course they should have good clinch, but if the other guy has better clinch at D class it means you will get taken down or dirty boxed a bit. At C class, you get a knee in the mush for your troubles. Quite a difference.

Well I get asked quite a bit about the different rulesets by people, so I guess the answer would be people who haven’t read the rules page on the TW site.

Agreed.

Killme00

Jason Mc wrote: »

I didn't know that D class allowed head shots in the southern shows.


The rules on our wesite

www.chaosfightingchampionships.com

were agreed at a meeting with all the currently run shows in the north


Just noticed our round system on the site needs updating
a class 3*5
b class 3*4
c class 3*3
d class 2*3

According to your website, Wresting shoes are allowed in all classes. is this correct? If so, how can kicks to the head be allowed with wrestling shoes on?

Tim_Murphy

Yes at some point you have to say enough, stop trying to make the rule sets more complicated Tim!

lol, yes I’m the one advocating an overly complicated set of rule.

Of course they should have good clinch, but if the other guy has better clinch at D class it means you will get taken down or dirty boxed a bit. At C class, you get a knee in the mush for your troubles. Quite a difference.

Indeed and that’s a good argument for not having knees to the head at semi-pro level. If you did that then there is no need for the whole C/D silliness.

Let me reflect that question to you then, can you think of anyone you train with who would be fine swinging punches with more padding on the gloves, but would come a cropper from bad posture leading to a knee in the face? I can certainly think of a few.

So leave out knees to head till B class altogether. I'm not entirely sure it's the right way to go but it at least makes more sense than a ruleset just handle the step up of allowing knees.

cowzerp

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Indeed and that’s a good argument for not having knees to the head at semi-pro level. If you did that then there is no need for the whole C/D silliness.

So leave out knees to head till B class altogether. I'm not entirely sure it's the right way to go but it at least makes more sense than a ruleset just handle the step up of allowing knees.

I could back up or disagree with Tim on this thread but i have to say i'd back him on this, C class fighters are clearly not ready for the more dangerous aspects of mma, i'd also drop Knees to the head till Pro level A and B classes,

Personally i'd like it 4 tiered again.
A- UFC rules, all in.

B-Cage rage rules no grounded elbows + no heel hooks allowed

C-Cage rage rules without GnP to head or knee's elbows to the head and shin pads optional, but both must wear if 1 chooses to!

D-League rules, Shin pads and no head strikes at all, basically sub wrestling with body and leg striking!

Tim_Murphy

cowzerp wrote: »

I could back up or disagree with Tim on this thread but i have to say i'd back him on this, C class fighters are clearly not ready for the more dangerous aspects of mma, i'd also drop Knees to the head till Pro level A and B classes,

Personally i'd like it 4 tiered again.
A- UFC rules, all in.

B-Cage rage rules no grounded elbows + no heel hooks allowed

C-Cage rage rules without GnP to head or knee's elbows to the head and shin pads optional, but both must wear if 1 chooses to!

D-League rules, Shin pads and no head strikes at all, basically sub wrestling with body and leg striking!

At least somebody is seeing sense. :)

The more I think about it the more I'd say C class shouldn't have knees to the head. I'm fairly sure some shows have this rule already. I'm going on some vague memories from rules meeting here so I might be wrong. The others changes (shinguards, bigger gloves etc) could be argued one way or the other for semi-pro but I definately think that anybody who wants to fight in a cage/ring should be able for 3x3 min rounds. If they can't they are either simply not training hard enough or its too soon for them to be fighting.

RealJohn

Basically, I'm with Tim and Paul on this.
To many rule-sets are confusing people (I'm not able to keep track of what rules apply in what class on what shows - I don't think it's old age). I also think that those who don't fight with head-shots standing don't need to be in a ring/cage. The league is fine for them.

I also think we need to move back to just having five minute rounds (2 fives for C class, 3 fives for A and because again, it's just confusing the issue.

And from the point of view of promoting the sport, in my own opinion, the current trend of having a lot of C and D class fights on a show isn't a good way to pull in an interested crowd. Personally, I'm much less inclined to go to a show if the majority of the fights are C class or lower. I feel a small bit cheated to pay the same entry prices I've always paid if I'm only going to get two of three pro fights (if that) for my money. Maybe I'm in a minority on this one.

Roper

Things I am confused by:

Accountancy
My Dishwasher
Stephen King novels when character suddenly show up out of nowhere in the last 3 chapters. It happens a lot.

Things I am not confused by:

Minor rule changes to MMA bouts
Children's books

This is all much ado about nothing in my opinion. If people don't like the rulesets, don't fight in them, or promote a show that doesn't have them. You can call them silly or complicated or whatever you like but the fact of the matter is that a lot of people like them a LOT of new fighters are going to come into the B and A class ranks because they have an opportunity to take baby steps and they provide a good night out and good experience for a lot of guys. We intend to have a great night at KO2 with just C and D fights. Most people I know who don't train go to MMA shows to have a night out, there aren't too many hardcore fans out there going to shows for the pure professional fights. Probably 90% of people reading this thread right now are nodding their head and saying "yeah I want to see full rules, sod that D class stuff" but will still stay on the couch watching a TUF rerun and won't get up and go to Tribal Warfare this weekend. So my show is about the fighters and giving them valuable experience and if people come along to see it, so much the better, because I'm sure as hell not going to tempt many UFC fans off the couch.

RealJohn

No need to be insulting Barry.

There needs to at least be some consistency in the rule-sets (and some explanation on the night) to avoid confusion. I was at The Fight Before Christmas with a friend. Both of us have been following mma in Ireland more or less from day one and neither of us were sure about the differences between the various rules in the lower level fights. I've spoken to well known domestic pro fighters who also aren't sure of the differences.

I have no real problem with C and D class shows and I hope yours goes well. What I don't like is the usual line trotted out by most promotors, something akin to "a full card of top class bouts" when what they mean is "a full card of C and D class bouts and two professional bouts".

I will be at TW at the weekend (well, 90% sure I will be) but the truth is, there are only two fights on the card (that I'm aware of) that I've any interest in seeing. I hope I'll be pleasently surprised by some of the others but I'm certainly much less enthused by shows in general these days than I used to be.

steve3

anybody know of any bjj clubs in cork city?

steve3

anybody know of any bjj clubs in cork city?

mark.leonard

RealJohn wrote: »

I have no real problem with C and D class shows and I hope yours goes well. What I don't like is the usual line trotted out by most promotors, something akin to "a full card of top class bouts" when what they mean is "a full card of C and D class bouts and two professional bouts".

Don't confuse marketing with the truth, ever. You will be disappointed.
Were I to say A full card of 5 Semi - pro matches, 5 pro matches and 2 K1 rules matches to the general public I would get the vacant stare you get when you try and divide 4567 by 14 in your head. I would expect every promoter to talk about "a full card of top class bouts" and market the heck out of it, there is nothing wrong with that. If you think there is I think you should call up Dana white and ask him to stop labelling every fight the fight of the century, just how many of them can there be after all?

RealJohn wrote: »

I will be at TW at the weekend (well, 90% sure I will be) but the truth is, there are only two fights on the card (that I'm aware of) that I've any interest in seeing. I hope I'll be pleasently surprised by some of the others but I'm certainly much less enthused by shows in general these days than I used to be.

Taking off my promoters hat for a moment, there is not one fight at TW this weekend that I don't think is going to be interesting, putting the hat back on I feel I have done an excellent job matchmaking for this event and I think all the fights will be close, obviously as a coach I feel my guys will win, but I don't see any of them winning easily.

You say there are two fights you are interested in seeing, I think that is awesome - if every fight fan in Galway had two fights they were interested in seeing I would be beating them away with a stick.