M3 Clonee-Kells Motorway construction updates

spacetweek

Sorry to come back to it but I just want to finish knocking on the head the idea that Meath doesn't need the M3, cause even at this stage some posters seem to think it doesn't.

Area/Pop/% of total/Modes available:

East coast 10k 6.2% Road+Rail
Ashbourne+Rat 15.5k 10% Road
Dunboyne 5.7k 3.5% Rail (in 2010)+Road
Enfield/South Negligible <1% Road+Rail

So: Around 10% of the population of Meath is served and rail and motorway, and another 10% by motorway only.

As for the extent of the Navan Railway, the total distance from the border at Clonsilla to the Cavan border is 57km. Phase 1 of Navan will cover 6.5 km of this (11%). Phase 2 will extend this to 37km (65% of the distance).


Finally: Does anyone have an up to date completion date for the M3? Back a while ago people were saying Dec 2009 but I think this has slipped?

veryangryman

The M3 leads you to nowhere of decent sized population.

The only reason the other places got motorway is because they happen to be on the way to other cities/strategic ports.

Thats why Wicklow/Kildare have good roads. Not out of sympathy to Bray/Greystones/Naas sufferers.

Again, complete waste.

spacetweek

veryangryman wrote: »

The M3 leads you to nowhere of decent sized population.

The only reason the other places got motorway is because they happen to be on the way to other cities/strategic ports.

Thats why Wicklow/Kildare have good roads. Not out of sympathy to Bray/Greystones/Naas sufferers.

Again, complete waste.

Total catchment for the M3 is probably a good chunk of Meath's 160k people. Around 100k at least. Also Navan is earmarked for huge expansion. Within a decade or two it could be 60-70 thousand.

marmurr1916

spacetweek wrote: »

Also Navan is earmarked for huge expansion. Within a decade or two it could be 60-70 thousand.

At which point the M3 will become a giant traffic jam and there'll need to be a high-capacity rail link directly from Navan to Dublin.

eddiej

Firstly, I Live in Ashbourne.

Is the M3 needed definitely 2-3 years ago but now prob not as the traffic (all anecdotedly) has dropped hugely on the N3 heading for dublin. Looks like an awful lot of Cavan,Meath, Monaghan builders aint headin to Dublin anymore.:mad:

But this is probably the wrong way to plan our roads surely we should be proactive not reactive and have infrastructure there to cope with future development. Just look at Neanagh bypass on the M7 N7 route and the outcry at the waste of upgrading this road. If I was allocating funding today for sure the M3 would prob be down the priority but it is still better to build this road now rather than have silly bypasses like Enfield be repeated and then rendered useless by the Motorway a few short years later.

I think sometimes poor old Meath gets bad press because Dublin expanded mainly west and south missed Meath (prob a good thing) and hence the towns are smaller etc. Wonder what the people of cavan town, Eniskillen Donegal town did sometimes.

Is the N2 a waste it is an awful long way to Derry the Big City that the N2 M2 goes to just think Slane Collon Ardee - v - Navan, Kells, Cavan. So surely the M3 is worthwhile for this stretch and then prob dual carriageway or 2+1. The M7/M8 does it really need to go much further than Portlaoise and there is a far better train link that way

spacetweek

marmurr1916 wrote: »

At which point the M3 will become a giant traffic jam and there'll need to be a high-capacity rail link directly from Navan to Dublin.

Sure there will - which is why Navan Phase 2 must proceed. Maybe I should have been clear on that - I'm not saying Meath needs a road or a railway, it needs both.

veryangryman

eddiej wrote: »

The M7/M8 does it really need to go much further than Portlaoise and there is a far better train link that way

Good points up to that quote

Road linking Republics 3 largest cities (also linking Cork-Belfast for anyone mad enough to drive that far, and im sure theres a few) was badly badly needed

We are a laughing stock with the Abbeyleix's/Craughwells etc of this world

eddiej

veryangryman wrote: »

Good points up to that quote

Road linking Republics 3 largest cities (also linking Cork-Belfast for anyone mad enough to drive that far, and im sure theres a few) was badly badly needed

We are a laughing stock with the Abbeyleix's/Craughwells etc of this world

Well i think thats not bad for a post on boards as only the last line is under question:D:D

I take your points re linking the three big cities and i travel from Dub to Kerry a lot so this road improvement will be a big help. I remember the not so long ago good old days of 5 hours to Limerick. I suppose I was making the point more that I wonder is the traffic volume big enough on this road to justify M road all the way. Taking a bit of a leap but was continuing the theme of comparison that an M road was enough as far as Kells and then DC or 2+1 on to cavan etc.

Still think the M3 is worth it and will post a few pics over weekend. Work is advancing nicely on the Dunboyne bypass with works almost begun on the Dunboyne Maynooth road. Also the rail line is flying with the Dunboyne station rising steadily (I presume that is the station just beyond the old bridge at the N/M3) anyway this is the M3 thread

spacetweek

Still think the M3 is worth it and will post a few pics over weekend. Work is advancing nicely on the Dunboyne bypass with works almost begun on the Dunboyne Maynooth road. Also the rail line is flying with the Dunboyne station rising steadily (I presume that is the station just beyond the old bridge at the N/M3) anyway this is the M3 thread

"works almost begun" - what does that mean!

The station you saw at the N/M3 is in fact Pace station - Dunboyne station is being built here.

ardmacha

The M3 leads you to nowhere of decent sized population.

However it leads to as much population as the M9, whatever way it is distributed.

brandodub

Been reading this thread for a week or so and really enjoyed the photos of where I drive past every day but cant see the progress properly. More photos would be great!!

Definitely I'm on the pro side as a commuter but surely it will benefit the whole of Meath just in terms of ease of access??

Gruffalo

ardmacha wrote: »

However it leads to as much population as the M9, whatever way it is distributed.

Plus it is not about how many people live along the route, it is about how many people will use the road. Think about the number of Kerry people who will use the M7 or M8 despite Kerry not being directly served by any motorway. The M3 will get good use from people beyond Meath and I would imagine that somewhere down the line it will be extended.

baziragi

Hello all this is my first post on boards, ive been trying to figure out how to create a thread? Anyway this one is very close to my heart as ive commuted along the N3 for the last ten years. Im really looking forward to this road being completed but its just such a massive project and i cant help agree when people ask where is it going. They say north of kells but what is north of kells ?? We wouldve been so much better with a railway to navan and bypasses of the towns which wouldve come in same cost or less i'd imagine. Anyway lets hope we get the railway too although i cant see this happening now. I live in Navan by the way.:)

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Sponge Bob

Plowman wrote: »

60,000 Cars a day

:eek: Will it f**k :eek:

Not even half that on the tolled bits ...possibly not even a third

Back of an envelope calculation I made is that it will cost the state €30m a year for the next 10 years at least :eek: ..and that is based on it financed at around 5%

This has killed the PPP model stone dead :eek:

nordydan

I wonder should there be a maximum number of cars per day, i.e only the first 75,000 cars get charged on the M50 Toll? Just a thought...:rolleyes:

veryangryman

Hmm if i didnt know any better, id say that i wasn't the only one who thought this road was viable as a motorway after reading that article.

A simple 2+1 or 2+2 road or simply dualling bypasses of Navan,Kells and Dunshaughlin would have been far more cost effective

Fact is that Eurolink KNEW that Kilcock-Kinnegad=Cash Cow. Same way Castletown to Portlaoise=Cash Cow. Because they are in middle of 2 inter-urban routes EACH.

As for this, well im sorry folks but neither Navan nor Kells, nor even their combined weight deserve a motorway. Nor Cavan further out. Even allowing for Navan expansion (which simply meant them redrawing the urban boundaries recently) makes me think otherwise.

Lets face it - The Motorways have been great for getting between the major cities, but the time to waste money on fanciful projects like this has long past. In my opinion, the taxpayer will end up paying the bill through underuse of this road. Time will tell

johnbk

I’m a big motorway fan but simply replacing National Primary routes with motorways has been a huge waste of money. I don’t think there was any strategic planning of motorways over the past 20 years and I don’t think it is any different now. For example couldn’t the M7 and M8 have been the one road for much further, then the M20 could have been the spur for Limerick and Cork. And likewise couldn’t the M9 and the M11 have been the one road with a spur to Waterford and Wexford/Roslare doing away with the N14 upgrade.

Also why spend money on the N24 and the N25 when one of these roads could service Cork to Waterford traffic.

Even the new A5 in Northern Ireland, if the road went up the west side of the Foyle then you could build a short spur to the roundabout at Manorcunningham meaning you wouldn’t have to build the new N14 and make the N13 redundant and also have a raod to Derry- but it isn’t going to happen like this now.

As far as the M3 goes, it is build now but do we need to spend anymore money on the N2 or the N4, surely one good road servicing the Northwest is plenty, not three???

BluntGuy

60,000 AADT...

But the capacity of a D2M is around 52,000 AADT I think. (Could be 55,000).

So basically the road will have to carry more traffic than it's designed for everyday in order to meet the requirements of the contract without penality.

Gruffalo

While the article raises some interesting points, it does also have one major, unrealistic point. There will not be a railway in Navan by 2015. It has been promised forever and it will continue to be promised forever.

jister

johnbk wrote: »

I’m a big motorway fan but simply replacing National Primary routes with motorways has been a huge waste of money. I don’t think there was any strategic planning of motorways over the past 20 years and I don’t think it is any different now. For example couldn’t the M7 and M8 have been the one road for much further, then the M20 could have been the spur for Limerick and Cork. And likewise couldn’t the M9 and the M11 have been the one road with a spur to Waterford and Wexford/Roslare doing away with the N14 upgrade.

Also why spend money on the N24 and the N25 when one of these roads could service Cork to Waterford traffic.

Even the new A5 in Northern Ireland, if the road went up the west side of the Foyle then you could build a short spur to the roundabout at Manorcunningham meaning you wouldn’t have to build the new N14 and make the N13 redundant and also have a raod to Derry- but it isn’t going to happen like this now.

As far as the M3 goes, it is build now but do we need to spend anymore money on the N2 or the N4, surely one good road servicing the Northwest is plenty, not three???

Agree with you entirely. Or instead of building galway and limerick roads they could have built one road from Dublin in the direction of Ennis forking into a Y near the end so that you got the Limerick-Galway, Dublin-Limerick and Dublin-Galway roads built in way less kilometerage than we have presently.

The whole thing is done piecemeal and now roads will be robbing off each other for toll money. If you live in Ennis or west clare you can go to Dublin via Galway (once the last few bits are finished) instead of the Shannon tunnel and M7 which is costed on this traffic.

BluntGuy

jister wrote: »

The whole thing is done piecemeal and now roads will be robbing off each other for toll money. If you live in Ennis or west clare you can go to Dublin via Galway (once the last few bits are finished) instead of the Shannon tunnel and M7 which is costed on this traffic.

Actually, either way, you lose.

There'll be a toll on the M7 near Portlaoise, and a toll on the N7 Shannon Tunnel Scheme.

There's already a toll on the M4, and there'll be one on the M6.

M4 is an expensive toll, so it'll probably (depending on other toll prices) be cheaper to go via the M7.

veryangryman

BluntGuy wrote: »

Actually, either way, you lose.

There'll be a toll on the M7 near Portlaoise, and a toll on the N7 Shannon Tunnel Scheme.

There's already a toll on the M4, and there'll be one on the M6.

M4 is an expensive toll, so it'll probably (depending on other toll prices) be cheaper to go via the M7.

So just go dodge the tolls and go the M4-M6 way rest of way. Galway-Ballinasloe isnt THAT bad a road and neither is Kinnegad-Kilcock

So go N18 to Gort. N66 to Loughrea. R446 to ballinasloe, M6 to Kinnegad, R148 to Kilcock and M4/N4 rest of way

jister

Offpeak you will be able to avoid the Limerick toll without losing too much time either - you can go over the Shannon bridge and link up wherever the best junction is or else cut through town onto the existing Dublin road.

serfboard

veryangryman wrote: »

As for this, well im sorry folks but neither Navan nor Kells, nor even their combined weight deserve a motorway. Nor Cavan further out. Even allowing for Navan expansion (which simply meant them redrawing the urban boundaries recently) makes me think otherwise.

Lets face it - The Motorways have been great for getting between the major cities, but the time to waste money on fanciful projects like this has long past. In my opinion, the taxpayer will end up paying the bill through underuse of this road.

Agree 100%.

Irish Independent wrote:

It is understood this is the first time such a guaranteed minimum toll income has been agreed.

Why was this agreed? Is it just me or do others think this is an extremely dodgy arrangement?

Is the Minister for Navan Transport so determined to "deliver for Meath" that he is going to cost current and future taxpayers enormous amounts of money to get himself re-elected "in the national interest"?

Irish Independent wrote:

The National Roads Authority said the minimum traffic target was "competitive" and was based on annual rather than weekly or monthly traffic levels. But it said it was unable to reveal it because the expert in that field was on holidays.

This is so unbelievable it's laughable. The Indo should FOI this information if it is not forthcoming.

Thanks to plowman for bringing this to people's attention.

L1011

It may be the first time its been agreed here but its standard European practice. However I've a feeling we've ended up agreeing to provide FAR more guarantees than any other European country...

Most British DFBO shadow toll schemes have a guaranteed minimum payment for instance.

Sponge Bob

serfboard wrote: »

Why was this agreed? Is it just me or do others think this is an extremely dodgy arrangement?.

Utterly , however it was agreed in April 2007 before that greaseball had his mitts on the purse strings in June 2007 so he cannot be blamed .

PPP contracts agreed since this dodgy deal include M6 Galway-Ballinasloe and the M7/M8 West of Portlaoise and the M50 widening

baziragi

Not much to look forward to i guess. Will be interesting to see the toll in operation and the attempts by everyone to avoid it.

BluntGuy

veryangryman wrote: »

So just go dodge the tolls and go the M4-M6 way rest of way. Galway-Ballinasloe isnt THAT bad a road and neither is Kinnegad-Kilcock

So go N18 to Gort. N66 to Loughrea. R446 to ballinasloe, M6 to Kinnegad, R148 to Kilcock and M4/N4 rest of way

Personally I don't believe in dodging tolls (unless they're truly ridiculously expensive or you genuinely can't afford the expense), perhaps my use of the phrase "you lose" suggested the opposite.

It is quality infrastructure, and I will pay my fair share to use it.

It's also good to know that the alternative route is up to scratch.

Tech3

jister wrote: »

Agree with you entirely. Or instead of building galway and limerick roads they could have built one road from Dublin in the direction of Ennis forking into a Y near the end so that you got the Limerick-Galway, Dublin-Limerick and Dublin-Galway roads built in way less kilometerage than we have presently.

The whole thing is done piecemeal and now roads will be robbing off each other for toll money. If you live in Ennis or west clare you can go to Dublin via Galway (once the last few bits are finished) instead of the Shannon tunnel and M7 which is costed on this traffic.

The motorways were also built also to serve the polulation centres which the current road does. If a motorway were to be built the way you mentioned we would need several link roads off each interchange which could stretch for miles. Also an other routes options are an advantage in case of road closure due to an accident. We need alternative routes aswell.