M3 Clonee-Kells Motorway construction updates

Sponge Bob

Back to this 60k figure

Only a max 19k cars traverse the N3 around Tara each day and the traffic counter east of Dunshaghlin is no higher.

IIMII

Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what pans out. Plenty of Navan commuters cross to the N2 and in to Dublin that way. But traffic does seem lighter on the N3 this year. A few years ago, you had to cut down through Skryne, Ratoath, Kilbride to make any headway into what was regularly a 120 minute journey. Hard driving on skinny, pot-holed country lanes in icy-conditions and flooding. But it does seem to have eased. Or maybe I've been lulled into a false sense of contentment because of the summer traffic. One thing that has made a difference in my commute is the Blackbull roundabout - I can cut accross to the Trim road and skip tailbacks there by the westerly route. Prior to the roundabout, the best approach was from the Ratoath side, and man they are poxy back-roads on east side of the N3

Gruffalo

BluntGuy wrote: »

Personally I don't believe in dodging tolls (unless they're truly ridiculously expensive or you genuinely can't afford the expense), perhaps my use of the phrase "you lose" suggested the opposite.

It is quality infrastructure, and I will pay my fair share to use it.

Well said. It is sickening to see people crying our for motorway only to dodge paying for them when they are built.

serfboard

Gruffalo wrote: »

Well said. It is sickening to see people crying our for motorway only to dodge paying for them when they are built.

While I agree with you in one sense, OTOH, there is a tipping point after which people will not pay.

For instance, would you pay the toll if it was €20? Or €10? Or €5? For me, although I haven't used it since it jumped, €3 (OK, it's €2.90) on the M4 is too much.

And I think that tipping point will be lower for people now than it might have been heretofore.

Since I have only found out about it, this "scam", (the only word I can use to describe it) regarding guaranteed numbers on PPPs, gives the answer to the question of why market forces are not at work here.

Ordinarily, one might think that if the price is too high, and people aren't paying it, just lower the price, and they will. However, if you've received a guarantee from the government that they'll top up your income, you have no incentive to do so.

And I'm sorry - that makes me mad.

Gruffalo

serfboard wrote: »

While I agree with you in one sense, OTOH, there is a tipping point after which people will not pay.

For instance, would you pay the toll if it was €20? Or €10? Or €5? For me, although I haven't used it since it jumped, €3 (OK, it's €2.90) on the M4 is too much.

And I think that tipping point will be lower for people now than it might have been heretofore.

Since I have only found out about it, this "scam", (the only word I can use to describe it) regarding guaranteed numbers on PPPs, gives the answer to the question of why market forces are not at work here.

Ordinarily, one might think that if the price is too high, and people aren't paying it, just lower the price, and they will. However, if you've received a guarantee from the government that they'll top up your income, you have no incentive to do so.

And I'm sorry - that makes me mad.

Unfotunately it is not a scam it is business. There may be no incentive on the company but there will be on the Government as they have to agree to the price. If the price gets too high, it will scare people away and the shortfall has to come out of the public purse

As for the value of the tolls. When I travel from Dublin to the midlands, I go through one toll. If I use your value of €3, is it worth it? To save at least a half hour of my time and the stress that came with the traffic jams on the old road, €3 is a bargain. And that is before the increased safety is taken into consideration.

That is my opinion but everyone will view it differently.

invincibleirish

This is an obscure source but as i recall in his autobiography Ruari Quinn said that during the 1980s he proposed a plan for a national network of tolled motorways which was shot down by the DoF and the rest of the pols on the basis that the Irish do not want tolls.

Now in the 21st century we are in a mad situation where some Interurbans have no tolls whilst some new build bypasses do and other interurbans have several. The lack of joined up thinking, beyond the doling out the spoils at the parish pump, really is a symbol of the largesse and uselessness of our political class over the past decade.

veryangryman

Gruffalo wrote: »

As for the value of the tolls. When I travel from Dublin to the midlands, I go through one toll. If I use your value of €3, is it worth it? To save at least a half hour of my time and the stress that came with the traffic jams on the old road, €3 is a bargain. And that is before the increased safety is taken into consideration.

That is my opinion but everyone will view it differently.

Therein lies the problem. Celtic Tiger Ireland is all too obsessed with their "time" and how important it is.. Half hour is stretching it based on 20 miles odd on the M4 vs the same distance of the R148. Going at both speed limits, youd save ~10 minutes.

I dont work in Dublin and dont drive when using the airport so i cant really say what a difference it makes to ones lifestyle. I DO think however, that paying well over a grand a year just to use a road on top of all the other expenses there is up there with cigarettes as a ginormous waste of ones money.

I just think that getting out of bed 10 minutes earlier in morning is hardly a huge difference. That said, i would use the road if in an almighty hurry

But as the poster above says, everyone views it differently. The choice is there for all

BluntGuy

invincibleirish wrote: »

Now in the 21st century we are in a mad situation where some Interurbans have no tolls whilst some new build bypasses do and other interurbans have several. The lack of joined up thinking, beyond the doling out the spoils at the parish pump, really is a symbol of the largesse and uselessness of our political class over the past decade.

Excellently put.

Why do neither the M9 or M/N11 have any tolls? I thought the strategy was two per inter-urban. Even taking into consideration the N25 Waterford Bypass, that's still only one toll, for that "region" per se.

Why does the M1 only have one toll, while the M8 (in effect) has two?

Why will the M6 toll be so easy to dodge, where as BOTH the M8 tolls will be nightmare to avoid?

Why is the M3 PPP toll agreement different to the others?

It's a disgrace.

As I said, I have no problem paying tolls to use top notch roadway.

I do have a problem with the lack of a unified toll pricing strategy and the unfair rollout of toll routes across the network.

Chris_533976

The M6 one wont be too much fun to avoid. Although there doesnt appear to be restricted junctions, its a long way to avoid it on crappy roads.

The M9 probably doesnt have one because of Mr Cullen.

eddiej

These photos were from the end of July start of Aug before the holiers drove by today and work is flying will hope to get more photos this weekend.

What I meant by almost started work was the by pass has of Dunboyne has had prep ground works done for a long time though the last 100yds to the existing road was left untouched this has been greatly reduced and now the new roundabout is well under construction just check out the photos

These are a few shots of the new roundabout on the Maynooth side of the Dunboyne by-pass



This shows the road heading for maynooth




A few shots of the PACE station I stand humbly corrected





These are few shots of the interchange which is massive this is one big roundybout. You can see the "tunnel" for the train line and also the old bridge over the train line heading into Dunboyne (it has the white van crossing it). This is moving at a serious pace and presume will be open in some description for mid to late Sept.













A few shots of the carriage way looking both ways





This is a shot looking to Dunshaughlin and shows how close the existing road is to the new M3

Gruffalo

veryangryman wrote: »

Therein lies the problem. Celtic Tiger Ireland is all too obsessed with their "time" and how important it is.. Half hour is stretching it based on 20 miles odd on the M4 vs the same distance of the R148. Going at both speed limits, youd save ~10 minutes.

I dont work in Dublin and dont drive when using the airport so i cant really say what a difference it makes to ones lifestyle. I DO think however, that paying well over a grand a year just to use a road on top of all the other expenses there is up there with cigarettes as a ginormous waste of ones money.

I just think that getting out of bed 10 minutes earlier in morning is hardly a huge difference. That said, i would use the road if in an almighty hurry

But as the poster above says, everyone views it differently. The choice is there for all

I dont know what time of day you travel at but it clearly is not the same time as me if the new road only saves you 10 minutes.

Tech3

eddiej wrote: »

This is a shot looking to Dunshaughlin and shows how close the existing road is to the new M3

Is this scheme being built with the armco crash barrier?

Irish and Proud

BluntGuy wrote: »

60,000 AADT...

But the capacity of a D2M is around 52,000 AADT I think. (Could be 55,000).

So basically the road will have to carry more traffic than it's designed for everyday in order to meet the requirements of the contract without penality.

Standard D2 - 44,100 PCUs
Wide D2 - 55,000 PCUs

Hope this helps...

Regards!

Irish and Proud

tech2 wrote: »

Is this scheme being built with the armco crash barrier?

Well the M2 (also built be Meath CC) has an Armco barrier, so I wouldn't be surprised...

Regards!

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

Tech3

Plowman wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yes it is indeed a H2 steel barrier.

A steel barrier option may be cheaper to construct but it will cost more in the long term with a lot of maintenance required. A concrete barrier is safer with less work required to keep it maintained.

eddiej

If you look back at the previous photos you will see that the M3 uses a concrete barrier back towards the toll plaza at the trim road flyover. This is only a 1 or 2 kms from these photos so I suppose it will be all concrete barrier. This is exacty how the rest of the road was done and then the dividing concrete barrier installed. There was a big discussion on these on the M7 thread I think and the trust was they need very little foundation relying on the road sub base and the sheer weight of the barrier to keep them in place. The wearing course is used to "keep" them in place and look aesthetically pleasing.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

veryangryman

Your joking right? Its going too far as it is.

No offense meant, just not a priority as the population using that stretch wont justify motorway

Gruffalo

veryangryman wrote: »

Your joking right? Its going too far as it is.

No offense meant, just not a priority as the population using that stretch wont justify motorway

But the purpose of such an extension would not be simply to serve the people of Cavan. It could lead to a link to the border and connect with a northern road, maybe the new A5 and up to Derry. Again, it is not a about how many people live along the route, but how many people will use it. For example the populations of Westmeath and Offaly would not even come close to justifying a motorway but the Dublin-Galway motorway passes that way so the traffic going through there would be quite heavy.

veryangryman

Gruffalo wrote: »

But the purpose of such an extension would not be simply to serve the people of Cavan. It could lead to a link to the border and connect with a northern road, maybe the new A5 and up to Derry. Again, it is not a about how many people live along the route, but how many people will use it. For example the populations of Westmeath and Offaly would not even come close to justifying a motorway but the Dublin-Galway motorway passes that way so the traffic going through there would be quite heavy.

Yes but people going from Dublin-Derry will use the N2 or M1 as far as Ardee

Anyone who used the N3 for going to Derry will be coming from Navan, Kells and the likes. Not thriving population centres in their own right at all and certainly not motorway candiates.

So once your a far as North Kells, the N/M3 is no longer an inter-urban of any description. Even Derry isnt massive and its a long Motorway that would be needed, even allowing for the new A5

In your examples, yes Westmeath /Offaly (for the few km Offaly has) are not big places population-wise, but they are on the straightest route to Galway from Dublin (god bless the Shannon). So they are entitled to have such a road as this is 100% an Inter Urban Route.

Keeping in mind that the M3 is tolled twice (in the bit thats built sofar) and with at least 3 alternative routes available to Derry, i dont see the demand frankly

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

veryangryman

Doesnt the fact that the government had to give guarantees to the contractor prove my whole point? There is borderline enough traffic for the existing construction. No such guarantees were necessary on the inter-urban toll routes

Gruffalo

veryangryman wrote: »

Yes but people going from Dublin-Derry will use the N2 or M1 as far as Ardee

Anyone who used the N3 for going to Derry will be coming from Navan, Kells and the likes. Not thriving population centres in their own right at all and certainly not motorway candiates.

So once your a far as North Kells, the N/M3 is no longer an inter-urban of any description. Even Derry isnt massive and its a long Motorway that would be needed, even allowing for the new A5

In your examples, yes Westmeath /Offaly (for the few km Offaly has) are not big places population-wise, but they are on the straightest route to Galway from Dublin (god bless the Shannon). So they are entitled to have such a road as this is 100% an Inter Urban Route.

Keeping in mind that the M3 is tolled twice (in the bit thats built sofar) and with at least 3 alternative routes available to Derry, i dont see the demand frankly

In fairness, Derry was just an example I was using but I would find it hard to believe that the intention is just to serve Cavan. Slightly off topic but is any of the N2 route Motorway?


In fact, it will most likely be a few years before we know exactly where the final destination will be. There are other possibilities too e.g. Enniskillen, connect to the Atlantic Corridor road (cant remember the proper name).

Sponge Bob

veryangryman wrote: »

Doesnt the fact that the government had to give guarantees to the contractor prove my whole point? There is borderline enough traffic for the existing construction. No such guarantees were necessary on the inter-urban toll routes

Are you sure about those guarantees on the Inter Urbans and the M50 ??

brandodub

Well done eddiej for the photos cant wait till it opens will save me so much time!

eddiej

The MIGHTY M2 now stretches for some bizarre reason not from the M50 as far as the roundabout North of ashbourne but from the bit after the slip road for Coldwinters and Blanchardstown, why oh why oh why

Will try and get some more phtos up soon the work on the Dunboyne by-pass is advancing at a serious pace. Was by the toll plaza today and slowly making progress will wait till some structures are above ground before get more photos.

Carawaystick

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Are you sure about those guarantees on the Inter Urbans and the M50 ??

There was a spindoctor on newstalk breakfast this week who confirmed only the M3 has the min traffic guarantee.

Gruffalo wrote:

Slightly off topic but is any of the N2 route Motorway?

(slightly tongue in cheek)
If by N2 route you mean between Dublin and Derry, then the whole way from Dublin to 8km away from Ardee is Motorway, the M1.

EddieJ, (again a bit off topic) the N2 speed limit only goes up to 120 just before the the junction where it will become motorway. There's probably some box-ticking reason for this stupidness. It's stupid directing traffic for the indusatrial estates in blanch to this junction and 2.5km back to Kilshane instead of off the coldwinters junction and on to KilshaneX.

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.423395,-6.337481&spn=0.02854,0.071497&z=14

eddiej

Could not agree more with the stupidity of even putting Blanchardstown as a sign post off this junction just makes no sense.

Anyways M3 M3 M3 M3 back on topic

Amtmann

Irish and Proud wrote: »

Standard D2 - 44,100 PCUs
Wide D2 - 55,000 PCUs

Hope this helps...

Regards!

Stupid question time: what does AADT mean really? Like, over what distance is it measured - over 1km, or 10?