Meeting for all firearms owners

Sparks

Much as I think this thing tomorrow is a load of hogwash, I'm glad you brought it up chem, stuff like this only festers and grows if kept under a rock somewhere, and can cause trouble further down the line.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

You're hardly suggesting such a body would ignore their own rules?

Suggesting? No, I'm saying that that's happened in the past. Extensively and repeatedly. And there's no third party that the members can appeal to with a body like this.

chem

jwshooter wrote: »

007

Ah Mr. Jw ive been expecting you

Sparks

jwshooter wrote: »

any one going tomorrow

Went. Wasn't impressed.

chem

Sparks wrote: »

Went. Wasn't impressed.

What went on?

Sparks

Venting, for the most part.
Think boards.ie but with dissent banned from the outset and a whip-round and no charter.
I'd summarise but... well, there's not much to summarise really.
No surprise in who was at the top table doing all the talking, no surprise in what was being said, no surprise that those there for the most part didn't know who or what had been done in the past decade or so. Such is life.

jwshooter

half time in the rugby so a quick one .
any thing informative it could not have been that bad

Sparks

Nothing informative jw. One of our old mods, JayCee (who's currently the head of the SSAI and on the FCP) was along with me and had to correct them several times where they got stuff wrong, and had more information than they did. To be honest, the 40-odd who went got more from him showing up than anything else.

Look, put it this way - if you're starting an organisation because you fear for the continued future of your sport and you're talking about how you'll get money for PR firms and solicitors and barristers and everything else, and it's desperately important and all about our sport and all for the sport and so on - you don't end the meeting so you can go watch the rugby.

Nothing against the rugby. Grand game for those who do it. But when you put watching someone else play another sport ahead of a meeting that's supposed to be "saving" your own sport, well. Actions speak to priorities as a famous chap once said.

chem

Sparks dont get me wrong. But you did go there with your mind already made up I feel. There has to be something of use from the meeting? Or can you tell us what points they had to be corrected on?

What was the general feel of the meeting etc? What actions do the group intend to take or was there any news as to what the new bill will hold for shooting?

Sparks

Chem, I went there, I said not a word, I put aside what I thought of Cal and our old friend FLAG, and listened.
What I heard was a lot of upset and fustrated people who didn't have much in the way of information, and that's a heavy criticism against the shooting organisations for not communicating enough, but one which is mitigated by them not showing up in here or joining associations or even just asking questions.
What I also heard was a handful of people who were looking to "organise" this into a new association to go bring legal challanges against the superintendents or the commissioner or the law on constitutional grounds or something (I never did hear a coherent plan, and a lot of this was all prefaced with "it's early days yet lads" mixed up with "jaysus lads the Misc Bill is out in only ten days, we need action!", and yes, it was equally odd-sounding at the time).

They had to be corrected on what Garrett Byrne said at the last FCP seminar, how a bill becomes an Act, how the FCP has been working and when they were shown various things, and other stuff like that. The chinese whisper scene in shooting in Ireland is something to be beholden, it really is

There wasn't any new news. Noone there had more information than Jaycee (who'll happily answer questions, by the way folks, you just have to ask him and his email and contact details are up on the SSAI website). Lots of stuff hinted at and promised, and frankly, we've all seen that for long enough to take it with a box or two of salt.

Basicly, that's six hours of a saturday that I can't get back, and that's my overarching impression of it.

jwshooter

I ,take two of these and go to bed .

Sparks

True enough jw. Wrote up a more considered take on it in case it's of interest to anyone still.

Sparks

In case anyone's wondering by the way, here's an excellent reason not to create another shooting organisation in Ireland:

Bananaman

Sparks,

NASRC is now NASRPC - has been for quite some time.

'National Association of Sporting Rifle and Pistol Clubs'
National Governing Body for some Sporting Rifle and Sporting Pistol disciplines.

B'Man

Bananaman

Sparks,

IPSC = International Practical Shooting Confederation

B'Man

Sparks

Cheers B'man, will change that later tonight.

Grizzly 45

Thanks for the informative chart Sparks.Now to do us a greater service,would there be any possibility of some contact details [or those that you know of]for all those organisations?PITA I know,but then at least folks could put names to organisations.

Sparks

Jaysus Grizzy.
Erm, I don't know. Give me a few weeks

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

Jaysus Grizzy.
Erm, I don't know. Give me a few weeks

Grizzy? This some bizarre term of affection now?

Sparks

No, it's my typing being all screwed up by the lee enfield

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

No, it's my typing being all screwed up by the lee enfield

I know the feeling

TargetWidow

Were there many firearms dealers represented there on the day Sparks? Sounds to me like financial interests have suddenly decided they want the law changed lest they lose money invested in ranges and stock in recent years but they're not prepared to foot the bill themselves to take on a legal challenge. And only FIVE clubs? Were they named? Excellent review, btw.

Kryten

The thing I find Strange, and probably pointing out the complete obvious, but the ISC do not recognise non olympic shooting sports. Yet they recognise the SSAI and not the NTSA!!!

Not giving out about the SSAI. They have a new committee, new website and hopefully they will start to make a difference, but why dont the ISC recognise the NTSA?

Sparks

There were a lot of dealers there TW, including the chair. It was noted that they have their own association already (which sits, by the way, on the FCP).

Sparks

Kryten wrote: »

The thing I find Strange, and probably pointing out the complete obvious, but the ISC do not recognise non olympic shooting sports. Yet they recognise the SSAI and not the NTSA!!!

No, the ISC do recognise non-olympic sports; the OCI don't recognise non-olympic (which makes sense for the Olympic Council).

Not giving out about the SSAI. They have a new committee, new website and hopefully they will start to make a difference, but why dont the ISC recognise the NTSA?

We're in negotiations over that at the moment, but it boils down to our leaving the SSAI. The ISC doesn't want to see that as necessary; we can't see it any other way. It'll get sorted out.

milkerman

Just to reply to some of your points Sparks.

Yep, I have volunteered and helped with stuff in my own club and yep I would volunteer as a PR type person. I have represented my employers in the past in the media with some success. But am I a PROFESSIONAL PR person? No. I dont know any reporters or editorial staff in print, radio or TV. While I can take photos of my own kids and have a nice camera, would these be slick or good enough at a professional level - no. I could recount for you my attempt at DIY dentistry while under the influence but I try to forget it and trust my dentist nowadays. If you need good PR - BUY A PROFESSIONAL.

As regards the adversarial approach you are correct in pointing out the downsides that have arisen as a result. There will always be pros and cons to any approach. However, without the adversarial approach would anybody be shooting pistols or larger than .22 rifles in this country today?- I dont think so. Is the partnership approach with Government working in our sport today? Well, did the Minister announce his proposed ban on pistols first to the FCP as would be good practice or did the members hear about it from an article in the Irish Times like the rest of us? This shows the Ministers level of commitment to working with the people in the sport. Sadly, I honestly think that we may have to go back to the adversarial approach with this goon. At least to the point where even he can see that it's easier to work with us than just to impose his B***sh*t on us.

Sparks

milkerman wrote: »

Yep, I have volunteered and helped with stuff in my own club and yep I would volunteer as a PR type person.

Excellent!

If you need good PR - BUY A PROFESSIONAL.

We've used good PR professionals in work in the past. €5,500 for publicising one event, and that boiled down to writing a few press releases and sending them out. Too much money - €5.5k is more than the NTSA grant in a year would be. Hiring PR professionals would be fantastic, but unless someone wins the lotto...

However, without the adversarial approach would anybody be shooting pistols or larger than .22 rifles in this country today?

Yes, and ten years earlier. The offer was put on the table to the NRPAI in the mid-90s to return air and .22 pistols but that fullbores were out of the question as the peace process hadn't taken hold yet. The option of being pragmatic and working up to it was discarded in favour of the ideological all-or-nothing approach. End result, we didn't have pistols for ten years and it was another body that brought them in, and their presence wasn't stable.

Is the partnership approach with Government working in our sport today?

With the Minister, no. With the Department, yes. Care to tell me which of those two is the more long-lasting part of government?

Sadly, I honestly think that we may have to go back to the adversarial approach with this goon. At least to the point where even he can see that it's easier to work with us than just to impose his B***sh*t on us.

Actually, it's the other way round - with the powers the CJA2006 conferred, it's easier for him to ban everything than to work with us.

milkerman

Hi,
Ok, so a majority decision was taken to hold off for a return on the full range of pistols then? Well if that decision was taken as a result of a democratic type process who could argue with it. Certainly in my club there are far more fullbore pistols than .22 's (oft referred to as 'stinky toys'). So if the same question were put to the members of my club the result would be the same. I might add that I actually prefer the .22 but sin sceil eile.

E5500 for PR on one event was pricey. Talk about the Celtic Tiger Premium. But the big question is did you get the result you wanted? Did it work? My employer has one of the largest PR companies doing consulting work for us. That company chopped 30k off their retainer without a blink just to keep us on their books. And yes, its easy enough to write a press release - the trick is getting somebody on the other end of the fax to read & publish it.

Will the Minister use his powers under the 2006CJA to hammer us totally? If the country were not so shagged for finances and tFianna Fail doing so badly I might say yes. Fact is I dont see the Minister doing ANYTHING that might lead to the risk of compensation claims. I can see him trying to milk the shooting fraternity as a cash cow though. The recent murders in the North and the general abhorrence of those actions have served to demonstrate the strength of the peace process so he cant use the 6 counties as an excuse either.
But then again it is impossible to anticipate the actions of a talented or determined fool.

Sparks

milkerman wrote: »

Ok, so a majority decision was taken to hold off for a return on the full range of pistols then? Well if that decision was taken as a result of a democratic type process who could argue with it.

If it was a democratic thing, well, few. But a democratic process would rather imply that (a) it wasn't a decision made in the room by the delegation; (b) that everyone was asked and given a vote; and (c) that the majority vote would win.
None of these are correct, so lots could argue with it. Especially since those in the room were purporting to represent the NTSA and Pony Club as 50% of their group - both of which would have voted for taking air and smallbore pistols as an entry point (indeed an end point for the Pony Club) and building on that. We'd have been able to bring in pistols far more stably had we done this just by giving people time to get used to the idea and going step by step.

E5500 for PR on one event was pricey. Talk about the Celtic Tiger Premium. But the big question is did you get the result you wanted? Did it work?

No, frankly. I was looking forward to seeing a massively different result than my own part-time amateur efforts for the NTSA. I was disappointed. Turns out, PR is a matter of following some basic conventions about how you write a press release (all detailed on the web for free); sending them to addresses (which are publicly available); calling the reporter a while later for follow-up (again, public available contact details); and that's about it really. Anyone who was willing to put in the time could get the same result. Paying thousands of a premium to get someone to do it for you, well, if you have that kind of money I'd almost say okay, go for it, with the one caveat that every euro on a professional is a euro not spent shooting.

Maybe if we had a specific campaign with a fixed duration and measurable end goal. But not on a continuing basis until we have a far more stable income stream to fund it.

Will the Minister use his powers under the 2006CJA to hammer us totally? If the country were not so shagged for finances and tFianna Fail doing so badly I might say yes. Fact is I dont see the Minister doing ANYTHING that might lead to the risk of compensation claims.

How many got compensation in '72?

I can see him trying to milk the shooting fraternity as a cash cow though.

Jaycee and I were chatting over the weekend about that - the total amount spent by the government on shooting, if you spread it amongst all the target shooters, comes to about 2 euro apiece or so. Roughly. Meanwhile, it's up to 38 euro going back in from each shooter directly to the exchequer, plus whatever else we generate in VAT from buying targets,ammunition,equipment and so on, and petrol/diesel taxes from going to matches and so on and so froth. It's not something that gets enough press really.

milkerman

Sparks, we could yap about this forever and a day but hearing your viewpoint on the subject is interesting. One thing strikes me is we have too many different groups representing shooters (that flowchart hurt my eyes). So perhaps one group with real support (financial) from shooters is what is needed.
Nobody got compensation in 1972 but Ireland is a very different country now, Mr. Joe Citizen aint so willing to take it up the backside anymore. So I presume in the event of outright bans on any discipline individuals will be ringing their lawyers.
I have to disagree with you on the performance of professional PR types, we get a polished performance and good results from our PR guru. Certainly better than our in-house attempts.
One thing is clear, between Government & Gardai this sport is being strangled in many ways. Just look at all the threads on this Forum relating to Licence delays, awkward Supers, decisions born of ignorance etc. Its enough to take the fun out of what should be an enjoyable pastime.