Meeting for all firearms owners

Sparks

milkerman wrote: »

One thing strikes me is we have too many different groups representing shooters (that flowchart hurt my eyes). So perhaps one group with real support (financial) from shooters is what is needed.

"We have too many different groups" is what I usually hear from someone seeing the landscape for the first time. Problems:

• People won't do it. Hell, this weekend is an example - a bunch of people, all of whom have representation through their own associations right the way up to the FCP, all trying to start Yet Another Shooting Organisation in order to do something that four or five groups are doing already, and at least a handful were doing it for the personal reasons that they weren't in charge of those four or five groups.
• One large group covering our entire community is going to be unmanagable both because of size and geographical spread and diversity.
• It's this way for a reason - we don't have one sport, we have dozens. Comparing Vintage Rifle to Silhouette to ISSF to Bullseye Pistol is like comparing soccer to hurling to rugby and insisting that only one admin body is needed for everything. Some things are complicated because they're not simple, not just because they're badly run.

Nobody got compensation in 1972 but Ireland is a very different country now

Do you believe, for a heartbeat, that less than 800 people getting upset would get the government to give them money when they have tens of thousands of people marching in the streets over pension fund levies and when they're gutting spending all round them?

I presume in the event of outright bans on any discipline individuals will be ringing their lawyers.

I imagine the solicitors who are suddently finding they have no conveyencing work (once the lifeblood of the legal industry, and now almost utterly vanished) will find that to be quite pleasant. I doubt we'll get much in the way of benefit from it in the short, medium or long terms though.

One thing is clear, between Government & Gardai this sport is being strangled in many ways. Just look at all the threads on this Forum relating to Licence delays, awkward Supers, decisions born of ignorance etc. Its enough to take the fun out of what should be an enjoyable pastime.

Dunno 'bout you, but I'm having a ton of fun whenever I get to shoot, just look at the fun we had this weekend. I drove for 4 hours on Saturday to hear two hours of complaints, and I drove for 4 hours on Sunday, heard not one complaint and saw the most fun I've had on a range in weeks. I wonder if that was because I went to a talking shop on Saturday and a range on Sunday? I've nothing against meetings and I'll undertake them willingly if they want to accomplish something or educate someone, but here's something for you - why did no-one at that meeting, even at the top table, know that there was a specific unit in the Gardai explicitly set up so that all Supers would apply the firearms laws equally? Why did noone there know that this FPU was the crowd to call or how to call them? Why had so few there any degree of familiarity with the Firearms Acts they were complaining about or the shooting bodies they were implicitly criticising as failures? Why all this shouting and no actual progress?

Sikamick

TargetWidow, if there were Firearms Dealers and Commercially run Ranges Owners at this meeting one would ask what was there motive, if it is to support and promote and to protect our sport, they could do a lot better by sourcing reasonably price Firearms and Ammo and make range fees more reasonable so people can use their facilities.

We have done a lot of research into Firearms and Ammo prices in NI - UK - Europe and the States and even taking into account Transports cost - Taxes - Duty, we seem to be the living in the most expensive country in the world for people that are involved in Shooting Sports.

Sikamick

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TargetWidow wrote: »

Were there many firearms dealers represented there on the day Sparks? Sounds to me like financial interests have suddenly decided they want the law changed lest they lose money invested in ranges and stock in recent years but they're not prepared to foot the bill themselves to take on a legal challenge. And only FIVE clubs? Were they named? Excellent review, btw.

Sparks

What's in a name?

Dvs

Sparks wrote: »

What's in a name?

Hello Sparks,
I would like to make it clear,
I have no part in the Federation/ Association this thread relates to.

However,
I would like to ask you to perhaps come up with a name for a hypothetical association, bearing the following in mind,

1.that is based in Ireland so you should include either Irish or Ireland in the name.

2.its mission is to represent persons who take part in target shooting sports.
maybe that might need to be refered to in the name, so people know what it represents.

3.the participants use shotguns ,rifles and pistols.

4. its name must include either Association or Federation,
because it shall be one or the other.


Dvs.

Sparks

Dvs,
I'd rather not contribute to this little project we've mentioned in here becuase I think it's fundamentally flawed in conception and implementation.

Also, whenever I look at your criteria, I am struck by a thought:
What is it in our sports that the NTSA, ICPSA, SSAI, NASRPC, NARGC, NSAI, MPAI and Pony Club are not doing that will be done by a new body? Or in the politics of our sport, that the FCP are not doing?

Dvs

There is no great mystery Sparks,
when people feel they are not being adequately represented,
or their views wants needs and desires are not being listened to or implemented,
they figure maybe we could do better ourselves.

And the greatest impetus of all, the feeling that the people that administer,
an association/ representative body or whatever.

Believe their's is the only voice that needs to be heard,
their's is the only opinion that matters,
and they always know best.

In spite of the fact that none of the Association/ representative bodies have constitutions that impart demigod status on committees or officials,
in the text of the constitution.

Only in the interpretation by certain committees or officials.

And that way some committees view their membership,
as a problem to be dealt with not the people from whom they should take direction.

Of course, I could not be referring to any of the Associations or representative groups you mentioned.........



Dvs.

Sparks

Dvs, you might be assuming I'd disagree with you, but if so, you'd be incorrect.
What I asked was not what the current bodies are not doing that a new body could do; but instead what they are not doing that a new body would do.

Given that question, and given some of the people involved and assuming that the final adopted constitution even partially resembles the draft constitution out at the moment, I would have to answer that we're all a lot better off with the established bodies. If even the NRPAI/SSAI can be redeemed (as seems to be happening now we've got a boards.ie moderator in there acting as chairman ) then why bother creating a new body that has to go through all the hoops for recognition by the Powers That Be before it can make any significant and lasting difference?

All we'd see from out here would be months if not years of inaction, followed by a slew of more meetings as the fed-up once more create Yet Another Fine Organisation Mk.2 and we'd be right back to where we are now. Meanwhile, the established bodies keep on plugging away at the unsexy, unglamourous, tedious, difficult work of trying to safeguard a sport which enjoys no legal protections from the whim of a Minister. And actually achieving something in the process...

Clash

I notice from that constitution that there's only to be 70 voting members all to be admitted by invitation only and that it will take two thirds of them at AGM to replace a committee member :eek:

Dvs wrote:

And the greatest impetus of all, the feeling that the people that administer,an association/ representative body or whatever.

Believe their's is the only voice that needs to be heard,
their's is the only opinion that matters,
and they always know best.

Hmmm...

Sparks

Clash wrote:

Hmmm...

I was hoping someone else would notice the irony there

(And I said I wouldn't comment on a draft document in detail, but yeah, there's stuff like that all the way through it. As it stands, that draft is a bad joke.)

Sparks

I'd love to say I'm surprised that the minutes of the meeting aren't accurate, but I'm not...

Sparks

And the mission statement is equally off.

Sparks

The perils of legal action.

chem

Dvs wrote: »

Hello Sparks,
I would like to make it clear,
I have no part in the Federation/ Association this thread relates to.

However,
I would like to ask you to perhaps come up with a name for a hypothetical association, bearing the following in mind,

1.that is based in Ireland so you should include either Irish or Ireland in the name.

2.its mission is to represent persons who take part in target shooting sports.
maybe that might need to be refered to in the name, so people know what it represents.

3.the participants use shotguns ,rifles and pistols.

4. its name must include either Association or Federation,
because it shall be one or the other.


Dvs.

Can I put a name forward?

Irish Rifle Association

Oh wait....................I'll get my coat:pac::D

Sparks

Actually, the Irish Rifle Association did exist, along with its counterpart up north, the Ulster Rifle Association - this was around the end of the 1800s.

sikasmicke

Sparks wrote: »

Actually, the Irish Rifle Association did exist, along with its counterpart up north, the Ulster Rifle Association - this was around the end of the 1800s.

Ah Sparks a mine-field of information as usual what in gods name would we do without you!

In any case the IRA, yes were the governing body of longrange and fullbore shooting up till about 1925 when the URA, as identifed by Sparks took a High Court action against the IRA and gained custody of all of the very valuable trophies owned by the IRA, beacuse there was no competent authority to look after the sport! Not much has changed since 1925 really.

And gues what each year these trophies are competed for in Northern Ireland, there ya go................

Sparks

sikasmicke wrote: »

Ah Sparks a mine-field of information as usual what in gods name would we do without you!

Rough guess, I'd say you'd get the information from somewhere else, like say, the same place I got it...

Not much has changed since 1925 really.

A very depressingly accurate commentary on much of our sport

And gues what each year these trophies are competed for in Northern Ireland, there ya go................

So go train, compete, and win them back!