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FG education proposals
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18-03-2009 2:19pmhttp://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0318/education.html
Fine Gael are going to introduce the graduate tax idea. Basically they will abolish registration fees but everyone will have to pay 30% the cost of their degree over 10 years. This will raise 500 million per year according to Brian Hayes.
I dislike this idea as a University student, I will not give any of the main parties a lower preference when I vote. Looks like Labour are the only party opposed to third level fees.0
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As a student, I think this is a great idea. The removal of the registration fee stops a significant problem for the less well-off (who have to find the money and then get it refunded :rolleyes:) and helps ensure those that benefit from education pay for it. Joe the Plumber should not have to subsidise my education.0
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Why do you dislike the idea? You are getting a third level education which is a privilege and not an automatic entitlement. It affords you the opportunity to have a high standard of living. You should pay for this.0
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Why do you dislike the idea? You are getting a third level education which is a privilege and not an automatic entitlement. It affords you the opportunity to have a high standard of living. You should pay for this.
I dislike the idea as they are giving with one hand and taking with the other. People from poor backgrounds should be encouraged into education and given extra grants and the like. Being straddled with 30% of your fees for 10 years is undesirable. This will encourage more people into areas with lower fees like humanities and social science instead of areas with higher fees such as medicine and engineering.0 -
Pride Fighter wrote: »I dislike the idea as they are giving with one hand and taking with the other. People from poor backgrounds should be encouraged into education and given extra grants and the like.
Grant money doesn't emerge from thin air and you may have noticed the county is a bit short of cash at the moment. I haven't seen the FG figures, but let's take them at their word and assume this would raise €500m a year. That can go to grants.
One Joe the Plumber stops subsidising D4 Ross's education, there's more money for Joe the Plumber's son's grant cheque.0 -
I think that's a balanced and equitable way of doing it for the moment. The way our coffers are set up it's probably the only way too.
I'd prefer to see true universality through a free system but that would require (permanently) higher tax rates...0 -
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Strange given how FG were praising themselves for their abolishing fees with Labour during the student fees protests recently.0
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it sounds like a make work scheme from an administration point of view. We have ended up with a complicted tax system as it is
A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
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This is very clever and I think I'm nearly deadset on voting for Fine Gael to be honest at this stage.
The thought of re-introducing fees for the people who came after me totally put me off them. This is way more reasonable.
The only thing I don't know is how will they recoup costs if the people migrate?
But not had a chance to think about it yet.0 -
kickoutthejams wrote: »Strange given how FG were praising themselves for their abolishing fees with Labour during the student fees protests recently.
Not really strange at all, as this should really be considered as a way to fund education without bringing fees back.0 -
This post has been deleted.0
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Pride Fighter wrote: »I dislike the idea as they are giving with one hand and taking with the other. People from poor backgrounds should be encouraged into education and given extra grants and the like.
So you suggest that those who dont go to college, i.e. the worst well off of the less well off, pay for everyone else? Is that you idea of fair?Pride Fighter wrote: »Being straddled with 30% of your fees for 10 years is undesirable
Your going to be paying for it anyway through normal tax. This new incentive will simply reduce the amount people who don't benefit pay for those who do. I think 30% isnt going far enough, It should be nearer to 100.Pride Fighter wrote: »This will encourage more people into areas with lower fees like humanities and social science.
No it wont, because people wont do any bull**** degrees like "celtic civilization" and crap like that. They will have to do a good degree instead.
It will stop this complacency attitude people have. I see people **** arsing through college, laughing when they fail exams and at the lack of work they do etc etc. Its because its free and they dont have any financial incentive to do good.
Disclaimer: I was in college, dropped out, and will restart again in September, so if anything my vested interest lies in free fees. However I am not so blind as to see I wont be paying for it.
Edit: and the worst off will get grants btw. So its a bit of a non-argument really. I would be mighty pissed if fees had to be paid up front, because I think the govt get a benefit from being a lender of sorts as it encourages the "knowledge economy." Grants are too much as well. I know of a girl who gets 10 grand a year in grants because shes from a disadvantaged background. 10 grand is taking the biscuit.0 -
Would a FÁS apprenticeship be considered 3rd level education?
The Joe the Plumber references are making me think of this tbh. A good tradesman will easily attain wage parity with graduates.
Once *ALL* third level education is included in this scheme, I'm all for it.0 -
The Economist wrote: »Not really strange at all, as this should really be considered as a way to fund education without bringing fees back.
Ogra Fianna Fáil proposed the exact same thing.
I just find it strange how FG were going on about how great they are for getting rid of fees and aligning themselves on the same level with Labour and then putting this out.0 -
donegalfella wrote: »This post has been deleted.
Is Joyce scholarship capable of funding itself through opening a pathway to higher earnings?0 -
The Economist wrote: »Grant money doesn't emerge from thin air and you may have noticed the county is a bit short of cash at the moment. I haven't seen the FG figures, but let's take them at their word and assume this would raise €500m a year. That can go to grants.
One Joe the Plumber stops subsidising D4 Ross's education, there's more money for Joe the Plumber's son's grant cheque.
As a student I think the graduate tax idea is a good one but lets not idolize tradesmen
as angels. They would be well able to pay their son's grant cheque from all their cash
in hand jobs.0 -
Would a FÁS apprenticeship be considered 3rd level education?
The Joe the Plumber references are making me think of this tbh. A good tradesman will easily attain wage parity with graduates.
Once *ALL* third level education is included in this scheme, I'm all for it.kickoutthejams wrote: »Ogra Fianna Fáil proposed the exact same thing.I just find it strange how FG were going on about how great they are for getting rid of fees and aligning themselves on the same level with Labour and then putting this out.
It's either stupid or disingenuous to suggest this is inconsistent with the removal of fees.As a student I think the graduate tax idea is a good one but lets not idolize tradesmen
as angels. They would be well able to pay their son's grant cheque from all their cash
in hand jobs.0 -
The Economist wrote: »...so?The Economist wrote: »Getting rid of fees was a great. (Unfortunately it didn't work.)
The admission rate in higher education in Ireland increased by 11% since 1998 (in 2004), doubling for skilled manual groups, increasing by 10-17% for semi and unskilled.The Economist wrote: »This is really not the same thing as bringing back fees. It backloads the payment rather than frontloads it, which makes a difference. It also backloads it only onto those that can pay, which also makes a difference.
It's not really that different, sounds like Fine Gael arguing on semantics.The Economist wrote: »It's either stupid or disingenuous to suggest this is inconsistent with the removal of fees.
I'd disagree given that they are now advocating paying to go to college (although ina different way)0 -
kickoutthejams wrote: »So.....FG are not really original here. THis was in the Fianna Fáil ard fheis. And put forward by the youth wing.Is it really that different? My parents attended university on grants which were available to those who couldn't afford to go, whereas those deemed able to pay did so.0
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kickoutthejams wrote: »So.....FG are not really original here. THis was in the Fianna Fáil ard fheis. And put forward by the youth wing.I'd say it worked to a degree,
The admission rate in higher education in Ireland increased by 11% since 1998 (in 2004), doubling for skilled manual groups, increasing by 10-17% for semi and unskilled.
I think this point is so important I'm going to labour it with an example. It is an undoubted fact that children that are spanked more often become adults that have a greater tendency to commit violent crime. This leads to claims that spanking children causes violent crime. But the crucial thing here is that there is no evidence for this. It is entirely plausible that bad children get spanked more, and bad children become bad adults. Unless you can tease out this effect from the data, you can't make assertions like "spanking children makes them bad adults".
Similarly what you're doing is looking at admission rates pre- and post-1998 and concluding the abolition was relatively successful. I'd argue (and so would bodies like the ESRI) that you're looking at the wrong counter-factual. What you should really be doing is looking at how would have happened to admission rates had fees not been abolished. There is, obviously, no data for this. But that doesn't mean nothing can be inferred. For example, it's well-observed all around the world that as countries get richer, people go to college more. (There is endogeneity/reverse causality here, absolutely, but my statement remains true.) Thus, given the huge increase in GDP we've had since 1998, you would expect admission rates to increase anyway. Look at the historical data on admission rates as a function of GDP and you find that nothing strange happened when fees were abolished. The line is essentially straight all the way through 1980-2008. Suddenly you've no obvious correlation between admission and abolition of fees. In fact the most detailed studies of this (from the ESRI, UCD, etc.) find that when you control for other factors, the abolition of fees had feck all effect.Is it really that different? My parents attended university on grants which were available to those who couldn't afford to go, whereas those deemed able to pay did so.It's not really that different, sounds like Fine Gael arguing on semantics.If you say so.
I'd disagree given that they are now advocating paying to go to college (although ina different way)
I fully understand the argument for free fees. I'm sympathetic that it's very hard for a two-kid family with €40,000 income to pay fees, and I'm extremely supportive of efforts to get higher participation rates in poorer communities. The distinction, I think, is that I actually care more about higher participation rates for kids in Ballymun than you do. I'm of the opinion that the free fees scheme did not succeed in its endeavour and everyone agrees it is quite expensive. I argue we should bring in some form of individualised recoupment (be it fees or a graduate tax) so that money can't be channelled to least well-off. Labour seem to be suggesting any family on less than €70,000 shouldn't be touched. I say f*ck that. Getting families on €50,000 to pay will provide more money for those on €25,000. That's how we'll really raise the stock of the lowest 10%.
As an economy, it looks unlikely that we can borrow any more money. We'll raise taxes at the end of the month to balance the budget. Put simply, we only have so much money and we have to decide how to spend it. Every euro we subsidise a family on €50,000 is one that the family on €25,000 can't have. If you really want to induce change, we have to stop pandering to the middle-classes. This also means that I do not think the hard-working guy who left school after the LC should not subsidise my investment of a masters. Fees look like a political impossibility, so at first glance it really seems that backloading the payment onto people like me and off people like Joe the Plumber is the way to go.0 -
Brian Hayes originally proposed this last November, this is just the official Green Paper on the matter. See here.Yes, it is different, because where means testing is employed, some people inevitably end up on the opposite side of the cut off to where they should be. This way, there will be nothing put in the way of people obtaining a third level education, and only those who can afford to pay the cost of it back will do so. It's the best possible system in the face of mounting evidence that universal taxation (my preferred option in an ideal world) simply isn't working.
I keep hearing how it's different to a loan system. That's cool, but it still results in students paying to go to college, and is a lot like fees.
What is the cut off point here? I know the FF proposed 35kp/a being the point where you would start paying a graduate tax.
Also, this scheme relies in PRSI. What happens if you leave the country?
Also, if it's a graduate tax, what happens if you don't graduate?0 -
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FG's proposal is the first concrete plan for paying for third level education that I've heard so far, in contrast with Labour's fairy-tale delusions about free university for all. Where are we going to get the money? We have to pay for it. I think The Economist put it far better than I could, so I'm not going to try and expand on his point.
I just want to say that Labour's free university for all is a great sound-bite and piece of populist nonsense, but is completely unworkable in the current economic climate. I say this as someone who will have to pay any fees that come in. I think we all have to grow up and realise money doesn't grow on trees, and that if you benefit from a good education, you should at the very least pay towards some of it. But, more importantly, it should be done in such a way that people from poor backgrounds aren't discouraged from studying at university.
Therefore, although there are flaws in FG's plan, most notably with permanent emigrants, it is miles ahead of any proposals from other parties.0 -
kickoutthejams wrote: »Fair enough. Source though? I like reading Irish politics material.
It still seems an awful lot like fees. Fine Gael patting themselves on the back and saying how they did such a great thing with Labour and bitching about FF for the concept of fees and then bringing in a system where you still pay albeit througha graduate tax.
I keep hearing how it's different to a loan system. That's cool, but it still results in students paying to go to college, and is a lot like fees.
What is the cut off point here? I know the FF proposed 35kp/a being the point where you would start paying a graduate tax.
Also, this scheme relies in PRSI. What happens if you leave the country?
Also, if it's a graduate tax, what happens if you don't graduate?
So what if you have to pay to go to college? You have to pay anyway, through taxes and registration fees. This way you pay once you can afford it. This way no one is discouraged by the initial cost, there is an incentive to work hard and graduate with a good degree to get a decent job to pay back the extra PRSI payments, and the government gets a source of income to fund universities. It will also end the ridiculous situation where we currently subsidise medicine students to a ludicrous degree, as medicine graduates will earn a decent wage when they graduate, and are practically guaranteed employment. Although, I would like to point out, there is no way a medicine student could work while studying to pay the true cost of their education on a annual fee basis.0 -
The Economist wrote: »As a member of Labour Youth, I'm sure you'll agree not all ideas proposed by youth wings are made party policy. Of course it's not a fine new invention by Brian Hayes; it has been done in other countries. It is, however, a clarification on party policy that seems workable.The Economist wrote: »Correlation does not imply causation. This is a crucial point for policy analysis that is all too often overlooked. The left are particularly hypocritical in this regard: they applaud correlations that aren't causal and simultaneously call for "root cause" solutions to social problems.
Given the abolition of fees in 1996, I'd say that the abolition of fees would play a large part in this.The Economist wrote: »I think this point is so important I'm going to labour it with an example. It is an undoubted fact that children that are spanked more often become adults that have a greater tendency to commit violent crime. This leads to claims that spanking children causes violent crime. But the crucial thing here is that there is no evidence for this. It is entirely plausible that bad children get spanked more, and bad children become bad adults. Unless you can tease out this effect from the data, you can't make assertions like "spanking children makes them bad adults".The Economist wrote: »Similarly what you're doing is looking at admission rates pre- and post-1998 and concluding the abolition was relatively successful. I'd argue (and so would bodies like the ESRI) that you're looking at the wrong counter-factual. What you should really be doing is looking at how would have happened to admission rates had fees not been abolished. There is, obviously, no data for this. But that doesn't mean nothing can be inferred. For example, it's well-observed all around the world that as countries get richer, people go to college more. (There is endogeneity/reverse causality here, absolutely, but my statement remains true.) Thus, given the huge increase in GDP we've had since 1998, you would expect admission rates to increase anyway. Look at the historical data on admission rates as a function of GDP and you find that nothing strange happened when fees were abolished. The line is essentially straight all the way through 1980-2008. Suddenly you've no obvious correlation between admission and abolition of fees. In fact the most detailed studies of this (from the ESRI, UCD, etc.) find that when you control for other factors, the abolition of fees had feck all effect.
GIven the large increase in semi-unskilled attendance of college, I wouldnt say it's as easy as just saying "they're richer, they'd be going to college anyway"The Economist wrote: »This is, imho, the reason free fees aren't working. Poor people didn't pay fees anyway. But by subsidising D4 Ross' education, there's less money for Ballymun. Of course we can argue that if we increased taxes there'd be more money, but that's a separate argument. You don't decide whether e-voting machines are value for money on the basis that we could increase taxes. We should isolate the free fees scheme from the broader tax question to see if it's providing value for money. It was a great idea, but unfortunately it has failed to bridge the gap. A kid from Ballymun is less likely to go to university than one from Donnybrook, all other things equal. By removing Donnybrook Boy's fees, if anything, we just moved that money to private tuition for his Leaving Cert.The Economist wrote: »It absolutely makes a psychological difference whether people are asked to pay now or pay later. Why else would furniture stores offer "Pay nothing for 6 months" deals? Moreover, people are probably more risk-averse and have higher discount-rates at 17/18 than at 21/22.The Economist wrote: »Well college is never really free, because Labour are suggesting we pay to go to college in a different way i.e. taxation.The Economist wrote: »I fully understand the argument for free fees. I'm sympathetic that it's very hard for a two-kid family with €40,000 income to pay fees, and I'm extremely supportive of efforts to get higher participation rates in poorer communities. The distinction, I think, is that I actually care more about higher participation rates for kids in Ballymun than you do.The Economist wrote: »I'm of the opinion that the free fees scheme did not succeed in its endeavour and everyone agrees it is quite expensive. I argue we should bring in some form of individualised recoupment (be it fees or a graduate tax) so that money can't be channelled to least well-off. Labour seem to be suggesting any family on less than €70,000 shouldn't be touched. I say f*ck that. Getting families on €50,000 to pay will provide more money for those on €25,000. That's how we'll really raise the stock of the lowest 10%.The Economist wrote: »As an economy, it looks unlikely that we can borrow any more money. We'll raise taxes at the end of the month to balance the budget. Put simply, we only have so much money and we have to decide how to spend it. Every euro we subsidise a family on €50,000 is one that the family on €25,000 can't have. If you really want to induce change, we have to stop pandering to the middle-classes. This also means that I do not think the hard-working guy who left school after the LC should not subsidise my investment of a masters. Fees look like a political impossibility, so at first glance it really seems that backloading the payment onto people like me and off people like Joe the Plumber is the way to go.0 -
kickoutthejams wrote: »Fair enough. Source though? I like reading Irish politics material.It still seems an awful lot like fees. Fine Gael patting themselves on the back and saying how they did such a great thing with Labour and bitching about FF for the concept of fees and then bringing in a system where you still pay albeit througha graduate tax.I keep hearing how it's different to a loan system. That's cool, but it still results in students paying to go to college, and is a lot like fees.What is the cut off point here? I know the FF proposed 35kp/a being the point where you would start paying a graduate tax.Also, this scheme relies in PRSI. What happens if you leave the country?Also, if it's a graduate tax, what happens if you don't graduate?
EDIT: On further scanning of the document, I can't see either of the latter issues addressed. I agree that there should be a system put in place to safeguard against these possibilities, and I'll be writing to Brian Hayes seeking clarity on the issues.0 -
I just want to say that Labour's free university for all is a great sound-bite and piece of populist nonsense, but is completely unworkable in the current economic climate. I say this as someone who will have to pay any fees that come in. I think we all have to grow up and realise money doesn't grow on trees, and that if you benefit from a good education, you should at the very least pay towards some of it. But, more importantly, it should be done in such a way that people from poor backgrounds aren't discouraged from studying at university.Therefore, although there are flaws in FG's plan, most notably with permanent emigrants, it is miles ahead of any proposals from other parties.I agree there are flaws in the plan. On emigrants and people who drop out. But the basic premise is a good one.
So what if you have to pay to go to college? You have to pay anyway, through taxes and registration fees. This way you pay once you can afford it. This way no one is discouraged by the initial cost, there is an incentive to work hard and graduate with a good degree to get a decent job to pay back the extra PRSI payments, and the government gets a source of income to fund universities. It will also end the ridiculous situation where we currently subsidise medicine students to a ludicrous degree, as medicine graduates will earn a decent wage when they graduate, and are practically guaranteed employment. Although, I would like to point out, there is no way a medicine student could work while studying to pay the true cost of their education on a annual fee basis.
What incentive is there to work hard in college if it's a graduate tax? I'd say that the emigrant/non graduating are major problems and this does nothing to correct these.
I support students paying for their education, but in general taxes when they finished combined with contributions from society as a whole.0 -
You quoted a link I posted to an official statement dated 21 November 2008.
Cheers and sorry about that.No, it results in graduates who are currently in paid employment retrospectively paying a proportion of their income to cover the cost of their education. Fees would indeed result in students, who by and large do not have well-paying jobs, paying for their education before they receive it. Loans would likely incur interest and repayments would have to be made regardless of level of income.There is none. It would apply to all graduates, until 30% of the cost of their education is paid.
For all graduates to pay 1/3 of their fees, be they nurses or consultants wouldn't be my idea of equity.So does the current scheme. But we have not had mass emigration for many years and hopefully we're not going to be facing into that scenario. I don't know if this is dealt with in the Green Paper, I haven't had a chance to read it yet.
If I found out that I could escape paying 1/3 of my college fees by going abroad, I'd be off like a shot. Irish youngsters have never seemed to have a problem with quitting the country.A good question. I'd assume that once you register for PSRI you would still have to pay back whatever amount was spent on your education. Have a look at the Green Paper if you're interested, it's available here. I'll be checking this myself when I get a chance.
EDIT: On further scanning of the document, I can't see either of the latter issues addressed. I agree that there should be a system put in place to safeguard against these possibilities, and I'll be writing to Brian Hayes seeking clarity on the issues.
Thanks man, I'm up to my eyeballs (damn college) at the moment so I don't have a chance to read this right now. Will do ASAP
Such an issue would definetely need to be addressed given how many students see college as an extension of 2nd level education. My old man is a lecturer and while he is against fees, what he sees as a positive aspect of fees would be his feeling that it would keep out all the wasters. This would need to be resolved for this to be equitable at all.0 -
kickoutthejams wrote: »It's very much a buzzword that Labour are populist but is it really that populist given that they got rid of it, were trounced in the next election and stuck to their guns on the issue?
That was a decade ago. I'm talking about at present. So far there has been little in the way of specifics from Labour on what they will implement, let alone how they would pay for it. Promising students the sun, moon and the stars is all well and good, but not if you've no answer on how they'll pay for it with govt. revenue collapsing around us. It simply is adequate I'm afraid.Permanent emigrants (brain drain?) and doing nothing to stop those who see college as a big party and then fail.
Well, free university for students at the expense of everyone else certainly won't help that problem! I'm not saying the FG proposal will suddenly fix all the ills with our university system, hell, it won't change those problems one iota.What incentive is there to work hard in college if it's a graduate tax? I'd say that the emigrant/non graduating are major problems and this does nothing to correct these.
There's an incentive to work hard, to a certain extent (And I agree it could well be flawed reasoning), as a better degree = better job prospects = more pay = less pain to pay it off.
It doesn't combat brain drain though, I agree. And that is a flaw.I support students paying for their education, but in general taxes when they finished combined with contributions from society as a whole.0 -
kickoutthejams wrote: »In which case I would favor the FF model. For all graduates to pay 1/3 of their fees, be they nurses or consultants wouldn't be my idea of equity.
Also, no one graduates from college and becomes a consultant. You graduate (after an extra year to two years in college compared to nurses), do a one year internship where you work ridiculous hours, then pursue many years of further specialist training, still working ridiculous hours, before becoming a consultant. On average it takes 12 years from the time you graduate. Junior doctors earn decent salaries, but they're not loaded by any means.We're not paying fees at the moment.
If I found out that I could escape paying 1/3 of my college fees by going abroad, I'd be off like a shot. Irish youngsters have never seemed to have a problem with quitting the country.0 -
That was a decade ago. I'm talking about at present. So far there has been little in the way of specifics from Labour on what they will implement, let alone how they would pay for it. Promising students the sun, moon and the stars is all well and good, but not if you've no answer on how they'll pay for it with govt. revenue collapsing around us. It simply is adequate I'm afraid.
Labour can be seen around a fair bit as far as their economic policies go, although the same accusations of "no concrete policies" are brought out again and again.
Rabbitte was calling for taxes on wealth as well as income, Gilmore proposing an economic stimulus package etc.
Most of their policies can be found hereWell, free university for students at the expense of everyone else certainly won't help that problem! I'm not saying the FG proposal will suddenly fix all the ills with our university system, hell, it won't change those problems one iota.It doesn't, but it succeeds in its aim: to fund third level education. It's not a cure-all for the ailments of the university system. To fix those would require a fundamental reform.
1) It's a graduate tax, you can doss around in college and then just leave to avoid paying the graduate tax.
2) You can avoid paying by just leaving the country.There's an incentive to work hard, to a certain extent (And I agree it could well be flawed reasoning), as a better degree = better job prospects = more pay = less pain to pay it off.That's pretty much what this is. A tax when they're finished and in employment to cover 30% of the cost, with society as a whole covering the remaining cost. Seems fair enough.0 -
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FF doesn't really have a model yet. It's all speculation until O'Keeffe puts something concrete on the table.Also, no one graduates from college and becomes a consultant. You graduate (after an extra year to two years in college compared to nurses), do a one year internship where you work ridiculous hours, then pursue many years of further specialist training, still working ridiculous hours, before becoming a consultant. On average it takes 12 years from the time you graduate. Junior doctors earn decent salaries, but they're not loaded by any means.
A doctor is still well paid, substitute that in so.Would you really? And never come back? There are lots of reasons people could leave Ireland: bad weather, huge property prices (until recently), high prices in general, rubbish infrastructure, drink culture etc. Would a few thousand euro over the course of many years really be enough to make large numbers of people up and leave permanently? I have my doubts, although the issue should be addressed nonetheless.0
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