Ireland 51st state of America

Sean Templar

IS IT TOO LATE TO CHANGE OUR MINDS?.


I know we’ve made our decision to go with Europe , but do you not get the feeling that we are more appreciated by the Americans (40 million plus of Irish descent) and would have closer links and a better future if we joined the good old U.S.A.
After Lisbon most Europeans are fed up with us. After our Recession(world recession ,i know) problems the most powerful(richest) europeans ,the Germans are saying look after yourselves lads!.
As the EU expands we become more insignificant in Europe and for job creation we seem to rely more on the Americans than the Europeans.
Yes we got plenty of EU money for infrastructure, agriculture etc, But it seems to be at a cost as more and more irish people seem to complaint of eu regulations and restrictions (eg fisheries) .

Also the fact that another American president of Irish descent is in office, could be a sign that it’s a good time to jump ship and say “God bless America”

It’s seems Barack himself is one of our top fans and talked at length about the contributions of the Irish to the American story.
"Irish signatures are on our founding documents, Irish blood has been spilled on our battlefields, Irish sweat went into building our greatest cities, we're better for their contributions to democracy and we're richer for their art and their literature, their poetry and their songs," he said.
"Rarely in world history has a nation so small had so large an impact."
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/st-patricks-day/upbeat-obama-tells-cowen-yes-we-can-1676043.html


We seem to have built a better country over there than we did here.Maybe if we all got american citizenship we could all evacuate over to the states and leave ireland for the wee folk?.


Which would your rather have Senator Cowan or Taoiseach Cowan

What do you say lads Yea or Nay?

ardmacha

What a truly bizarre idea.

ionix5891

hahahahhaahahaha

wait... hahahahhahahahahahhaaa


:rolleyes: ok let me pick myself of the floor

so let me get this straight you have gripes with being members of the most economically successful union of history that catapulted europe out of the ashes of ww2 as one of the biggest economies/markets in the world, the same union that stopped the continuous and ongoing war between various states

and you want to join a "union" (reffered to as empire from now on) thats build on corporatism, greed, unfettered capitalism (subprime crisis im looking at you), a population that enjoys being dumb and puts a huge percentage of its people behind bars (more so if you happen to be black), an empire whos foreign policy revolves around continuous military adventures to feed more money into its gigantic military/industrial complex, oh and then theres bible belt who make our religious nuts look good


im sorry but i dont want my country to have nothing to do with US

if you have lived there or visited any time recently you will understand and maybe think twice before posting such nonsense :mad:


end rant

RealityCheck

Eh no thanks. I think I prefer it the way it is:)

GuanYin

ionix5891 wrote: »

a population that enjoys being dumb

I don't enjoy being called dumb, and this is a discussion board, not a rant blog.

ionix5891

GuanYin wrote: »

I don't enjoy being called dumb, and this is a discussion board, not a rant blog.

you dont deny that a great majority resent learning and science?

oscarBravo

ionix5891 wrote: »

you dont deny that a great majority resent learning and science?

Unless you have hard figures to back that up - drop it.

Sean Templar

ionix5891 wrote: »

a that enjoys being dumb

Yup dumb enough to elect Obama(a black man by the way),while we were smart enough to elect cowan and bertie.Yup i can see your point.

acontadino

here i wish people would get it into their heads, the rest of europe is not 'fed up' that we rejected lisbon. maby the fat cats definetly but the ordinary swede, german, french? hell nothe fact is that many europeans couldnt care less about european wide politics. now i would be a yes voter myself but its not simply ireland vs 'europeans'.

secondly no, i don't want to be part of the USA...not one bit. we should thrive to establish a european identity(well tbh our irish identity is what makes us european)

and listen don't tell that to croatians(ok not in EU) who ****ing love irish culture, probably way more than we do ourselves.

what about all the germans who come to ireland every year?

no thanks i will quite accept being the (12th/13th/14th(since we joined the same time as danish and british) state of the European Union..go raibh maith agat.

Dob74

Please dont be fooled by Cowen meeting Obama. It gets hardly any coverage in america. And most americans couldnt care less about ireland. American politians are very good at the back slapping and smiling for the press. Irish press people arent very sophisticated and they eat it up. When it comes down to it Obama was just appeasing a small slice of his electorate. Next week it will be the Polish President.

Anyway I dont think irish people would stomach joining NATO and all the other military commitments. We didnt even join the US in WW2.

I am sure there are alot of europeans who are delighted we voted down the Lisbon Treaty. I havent heard of one foreign politian critising us over voting no. It's only the idiots we elect have been claiming that they are being treated badly by other eu countries.

thomasj

Well there are 52 states in america so you can rule that out! :P

ionix5891

oscarBravo wrote: »

Unless you have hard figures to back that up - drop it.

some link's for you

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/14/books/14dumb.html

http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/mesh/2008/01/graph_americans_lost_on_map/

ionix5891

Sean Templar wrote: »

Yup dumb enough to elect Obama(a black man by the way),while we were smart enough to elect cowan and bertie.Yup i can see your point.

we dont elect our TDs...

and it took them 8 years of a chimp who managed to start 2 wars, torture people, destroy the economy to get to their senses

bravo!

edit: we have enough of our own problems such as NI "dissidents" and ministers who are a joke, we dont need to be the 52nd state (puerto rico is a state in anything but name btw) of that country

Denerick

Cowen and Lenihen in the senate, a few Irish congressman... Not a bad idea, where do we sign up for it?

Sean Templar

Just did some googleing and found this

"In 1771 Benjamin Franklin traveled through Ireland, both North and South and was astounded by the level of poverty he saw there. Ireland was under such restrictive the trade regulations and laws, which affected the Irish economy, Franklin feared that America could suffer the same plight if Britain’s exploitation of the colonies continued. After America had won its independence, Franklin was of the opinion that Ireland should likewise separate from Britain and send representatives and senators to the newly formed United States Congress."

Maybe even a peaceful united Ireland?

http://ulsteramerica.blogspot.com/

AMERICAS 51ST STATE BY DAVID MCWILLIAMS FEB 2008
Ireland benefits when Europe is weak and America strong, rather than the other way around. The system that the US has fostered has led to enormous improvements in the standard of living for most of Europe. Politically, Ireland has been able to express itself in Europe, feeling like an equal at the top table for the first time ever.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-mcwilliams/americas-51st-state_b_87820.html

Also a lot of reports online of England trying to get there before us and become the 51st state.Better hurry lads,before its too late?.we could be surrounded?

(((Well, there is the benefit that it leaves Ireland entirely surrounded.)))
http://blog.wired.com/sterling/2009/03/meanwhile-in-re.html
.

oscarBravo

ionix5891 wrote: »

some link's for you

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/opinion/polls/main657083.shtml

That's an article about an opinion poll. And it says this:

Americans do not believe that humans evolved, and the vast majority says that even if they evolved, God guided the process. Just 13 percent say that God was not involved. But most would not substitute the teaching of creationism for the teaching of evolution in public schools.

ionix5891 wrote: »

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/14/books/14dumb.html

That's a book review.

ionix5891 wrote: »

http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/mesh/2008/01/graph_americans_lost_on_map/

That's an article about a poor grasp of geography among young Americans.

If you think those links constitute "hard figures" proving that "a great majority resent learning and science", think again.

ionix5891

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's an article about an opinion poll. And it says this: That's a book review. That's an article about a poor grasp of geography among young Americans.

If you think those links constitute "hard figures" proving that "a great majority resent learning and science", think again.

go for a visit yourself, yes there are very bright people like everywhere but there are quite alot of not so bright sparks

GuanYin

ionix5891 wrote: »

you dont deny that a great majority resent learning and science?

No more than in your country.

There are hundreds of millions of people here and we invest billions more than your country does, or indeed all of Europe does in science and learning.

So emm unless you have stats, you're just promoting some prejudicial stereotype and that doesn't sparkle with me.

ionix5891 wrote: »

go for a visit yourself, yes there are very bright people like everywhere but there are quite alot of not so bright sparks

Of the 16K people in the square mile facility around me right now, there are ~10K people currently holding a BS or higher in some form of life science.

On the other hand, I'd argue that this kind of thread doesn't show Irish people to be the brightest people.

GuanYin

Back on topic, the US, while in a heavy recession, will most likely start to recover in the next year and still leads the way in many technology and science sectors.

Ireland, from what I can tell, is in a terrible situation and think are looking increasingly bleak.

I'm not quite sure how you think any country would want to take on that burden in the current world climate.

Duiske

GuanYin wrote: »

On the other hand, I'd argue that this kind of thread doesn't show Irish people to be the brightest people.

And you came up with that little nugget on the basis of this one thread ?

ionix5891

GuanYin wrote: »

No more than in your country.

There are hundreds of millions of people here and we invest billions more than your country does, or indeed all of Europe does in science and learning.

So emm unless you have stats, you're just promoting some prejudicial stereotype and that doesn't sparkle with me.




Of the 16K people in the square mile facility around me right now, there are ~10K people currently holding a BS or higher in some form of life science.

On the other hand, I'd argue that this kind of thread doesn't show Irish people to be the brightest people.

As i said there are some very bright people, don't be taking offense just because you are sitting in a university surrounded by other bright people but on average things look very bleak

The nation's 15-year-olds make a poor showing on a newly released international test of practical math applications, ranking 24th out of 29 industrialized nations, behind South Korea, Japan and most of Europe. U.S. students' scores were comparable to those in Poland, Hungary and Spain.

and Ireland....

http://www.usatoday.com/educate/mathscience/article-math2.htm

Killaqueen!!!

acontadino wrote: »

here i wish people would get it into their heads, the rest of europe is not 'fed up' that we rejected lisbon. maby the fat cats definetly but the ordinary swede, german, french? hell nothe fact is that many europeans couldnt care less about european wide politics. now i would be a yes voter myself but its not simply ireland vs 'europeans'.

Dunno about that. Not only are the fat cats definitely p1ssed off but I was in Europe last summer when the No result came in for Lisbon. I was in Germany and Austria and met a few people who weren't pleased. They were obviously not p1ssed off with me just cos I was Irish and Ireland voted No but they were certainly more reserved than usual with me on that day. For example, the woman I was staying with actually said in not a very nice day "Ireland voted no to Europe" not "no to Lisbon" but "no to Europe". I don't think a lot of Europeans have a high opinion about Irish politics since the Lisbon Treaty. On the other hand, there were/are in fact countries who encouraged, not necessarily a No vote but definitly a referendum.

Anyway, back on topic, I think the proposal to join America is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!!! And I wouldn't really call myself European..

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Originally Posted by ionix5891
you dont deny that a great majority resent learning and science?

oscarBravo wrote: »

Unless you have hard figures to back that up - drop it.

Tempted to quote the Sun/Star/Sunday World circulation figures here...

GuanYin

Duiske wrote: »

And you came up with that little nugget on the basis of this one thread ?

I was being facetious :rolleyes:

ionix5891 wrote: »

As i said there are some very bright people, don't be taking offense just because you are sitting in a university surrounded by other bright people but on average things look very bleak

and Ireland....

http://www.usatoday.com/educate/mathscience/article-math2.htm

This is what makes me laugh about Irish people here who put down America on issues of education, ignorance, insularity etc.

The do so based entirely on their own experiences in their home state. Lets look at some facts.

First, regarding your Geography link and the wider issue of Americans not leaving America. North America is roughly 2.5 times the area of Europe. We learn American geography, which is useful and alot. I'd argue that Europeans, on average, know as little about the details of US geography as we do about European geography.

You guys think that you're well traveled if you backpack through Europe and that we don't leave the US, how insular and ignorant we are. Traveling coast to coast in America is further than most European flights to another country. Our states are as diverse in culture as many European countries. I went to college roughly the same distance from my home town as you guys are from Moscow. Yet if I didn't leave the country, I'd be looked down on by Irish people who visit England, France and Germany, distances I regularly drove as a teen, and think they are well-travelled. Probably in the same breath where you'd claim that Americans are ignorant and insular. Oh the Irony.

Regarding your link. Well duh! We have completely different education system to you guys. Sure our high schools aren't as good as yours (although some are), but our colleges are vastly superior (look at the world rankings). How do you expect to compare 15 year olds who are in entirely different systems? Our system isn't run by a 3rd party (the catholic church) and we run on a capitalist system, not the pseudo-socialist system you guys have. By and large, we even out by the time we reach graduate level and our college graduates in all disciplines are ranked among the best in the world.

We spend more money on science, technology and education, we have more people working in those areas and we produce more top ranked publications than any European country.

Yet we are perceived as dumb? Hrmmm. The stereotype amuses me somewhat, because those portraying it know far less about America and American culture and education than I do about European culture and education.

Of course we DO have some poorly educated people. We do have some hick towns. But largely in poorer more desolate states. Ireland is currently one of the more developed states in Europe. Compare single states MA, IL, CA, WA or PA to Ireland in terms of education and see how you fare. Or Compare the US as a whole against all of Europe, including all your recent Eastern Block states and see how you fare.

At least if you are going to make a comparison compare like with like. Comparing a free-education state of 7 million with a 300+ million capitalist collection of states at the 10th grade level is a pretty dumb indicator on a countries overall education. All it shows is that we're not equal at that level. It would be like trying to draw conclusions on the average heights of populations by comparing 6 year olds.

So yeah, when you find a US state similar in population and industry to Ireland and then find me the comparative stats at adult educated level. Maybe then you might come across as having a sensible argument. If you're gonna cherry pick and claim some sort of pseudo-intellectual status, I'm gonna think you're a troll.

As an addendum, for a country of supposed superior intellects, you sure screwed up your economy and country in general, far worse than we did, and we had..what did you call him?... "a monkey" running our government.

Nodin

Sean Templar wrote: »

What do you say lads Yea or Nay?

Nay. Europe for me, thanks.

Sean Templar

GuanYin wrote: »

I was being facetious :rolleyes:



This is what makes me laugh about Irish people here who put down America on issues of education, ignorance, insularity etc.

The do so based entirely on their own experiences in their home state. Lets look at some facts.

First, regarding your Geography link and the wider issue of Americans not leaving America. North America is roughly 2.5 times the area of Europe. We learn American geography, which is useful and alot. I'd argue that Europeans, on average, know as little about the details of US geography as we do about European geography.

You guys think that you're well traveled if you backpack through Europe and that we don't leave the US, how insular and ignorant we are. Traveling coast to coast in America is further than most European flights to another country. Our states are as diverse in culture as many European countries. I went to college roughly the same distance from my home town as you guys are from Moscow. Yet if I didn't leave the country, I'd be looked down on by Irish people who visit England, France and Germany, distances I regularly drove as a teen, and think they are well-travelled. Probably in the same breath where you'd claim that Americans are ignorant and insular. Oh the Irony.

Regarding your link. Well duh! We have completely different education system to you guys. Sure our high schools aren't as good as yours (although some are), but our colleges are vastly superior (look at the world rankings). How do you expect to compare 15 year olds who are in entirely different systems? Our system isn't run by a 3rd party (the catholic church) and we run on a capitalist system, not the pseudo-socialist system you guys have. By and large, we even out by the time we reach graduate level and our college graduates in all disciplines are ranked among the best in the world.

We spend more money on science, technology and education, we have more people working in those areas and we produce more top ranked publications than any European country.

Yet we are perceived as dumb? Hrmmm. The stereotype amuses me somewhat, because those portraying it know far less about America and American culture and education than I do about European culture and education.

Of course we DO have some poorly educated people. We do have some hick towns. But largely in poorer more desolate states. Ireland is currently one of the more developed states in Europe. Compare single states MA, IL, CA, WA or PA to Ireland in terms of education and see how you fare. Or Compare the US as a whole against all of Europe, including all your recent Eastern Block states and see how you fare.

At least if you are going to make a comparison compare like with like. Comparing a free-education state of 7 million with a 300+ million capitalist collection of states at the 10th grade level is a pretty dumb indicator on a countries overall education. All it shows is that we're not equal at that level. It would be like trying to draw conclusions on the average heights of populations by comparing 6 year olds.

So yeah, when you find a US state similar in population and industry to Ireland and then find me the comparative stats at adult educated level. Maybe then you might come across as having a sensible argument. If you're gonna cherry pick and claim some sort of pseudo-intellectual status, I'm gonna think you're a troll.

As an addendum, for a country of supposed superior intellects, you sure screwed up your economy and country in general, far worse than we did, and we had..what did you call him?... "a monkey" running our government.

So to get back on thread.In your opinion if we had the choice,would Ireland be better off as an increasingly smaller part of the EU or as a state in the U.S.A.:cool:

GuanYin

Sean Templar wrote: »

So to get back on thread.In your opinion if we had the choice,would Ireland be better off as an increasingly smaller part of the EU or as a state in the U.S.A.:cool:

I already answered this. It is academic, I don't think the US would ever take on the burden of Ireland in it's current state.

If we are talking about an Irish wish-list, I think that they need to be tied to Europe in terms of trade and resources.

To be slightly facetious, in terms of getting help from the US in times of need, if New Orleans is anything to go by, you are better off being exogenous state, we helped post-tsunami Asia and parts of Africa more than we have anyone in N'Orleans.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Dannyboy83

Killaqueen!!! wrote: »

Dunno about that. Not only are the fat cats definitely p1ssed off but I was in Europe last summer when the No result came in for Lisbon. I was in Germany and Austria and met a few people who weren't pleased. They were obviously not p1ssed off with me just cos I was Irish and Ireland voted No but they were certainly more reserved than usual with me on that day. For example, the woman I was staying with actually said in not a very nice day "Ireland voted no to Europe" not "no to Lisbon" but "no to Europe". I don't think a lot of Europeans have a high opinion about Irish politics since the Lisbon Treaty. On the other hand, there were/are in fact countries who encouraged, not necessarily a No vote but definitly a referendum.

Anyway, back on topic, I think the proposal to join America is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!!! And I wouldn't really call myself European..

Just to back this up, my sister has been on the receiving end of abuse in France and Germany with regard to it.
People here may think there is no hostility, but on the continent there most definitely is.

On the other hand, in Lithuania and Poland, I've found that people expected nothing less of us.[:D]
Typically Irish apparently

GuanYin

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

To be fair I was mostly referring to Science and Education, the specific areas addressed by the poster. In terms of competitive graduates, US is highly ranked.

However, on your points, how does this differ from other countries? I assume the level of college graduates on boards.ie is quite high, given you get free education and all that (the 2005 boards.ie census showed ~27% of responders to be in 3rd or 4th level education and you have graduates on top of that), but read the politics forum to see a startling lack of knowledge of your own laws and government To the point that I'm sometimes correcting posters. To read boards.ie in general, you often see terrible grammar and spelling.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.