Pro Wrestling and MMA

cowzerp

Fozzy wrote: »

It came about because the pro wrestlers could fight for real and some of them wanted to set themselves apart from the competition.

This sums it up, they could fight, so can some chess players, Fair city acors, GAA players, etc...this is not because of pro wrestling, some people are just tough despite what they do!

Fozzy wrote: »

You'd be surprised at how many MMA fighters have done pro wrestling, or even just fought on a pro wrestling show

Ready made publicity, money talks-simple really! How does this show that pro wrestling makes fighters! you dont need to answer that.

Oh and they Entertained on a pro wrestling show not Fought.

Fozzy

cowzerp wrote: »

This sums it up, they could fight, so can some chess players, Fair city acors, GAA players, etc...this is not because of pro wrestling, some people are just tough despite what they do!

A lot of them were high level martial artists before they were pro wrestlers. That's always been the case in pro wrestling

cowzerp wrote: »

Ready made publicity, money talks-simple really! How does this show that pro wrestling makes fighters! you dont need to answer that.

I don't really think that that's the case, especially when they wouldn't be getting that much publicity doing pro wrestling. My point was more about showing that many MMA fighters don't hold this disdain towards pro wrestling that you seem to

cowzerp wrote: »

Oh and they Entertained on a pro wrestling show not Fought.

No, I meant fought, as in fought an MMA fight on a show billed as pro wrestling

Tim_Murphy

I don't understand all the pro-wrestling to be honest.

i dont mind Pro wrestling but its just like Fair city as you compare, some people dont seem to realise this!

Who doesn't realise this Paul? I've seen numerous people come out with similar statements but I've never come across anybody, bar kids who didn't take pro-wrestling for what it was.

As has been pointed out, MMA in Japan grew out of pro-wrestling, with a lot of the shoot matches back in the day being somewhere beaten the two.

this is not because of pro wrestling, some people are just tough despite what they do!

Pro-wrestlers are tough despite the fact that they do pro-wrestling? :eek::rolleyes: I doubt there's many posters in this forum that would last the pro-wrestling lifestyle for 6 months.

rovert

cowzerp I know this type of question sounds dickish but have you read up on the history of MMA?

Anyway:

WWE superstar Kane has laughed off reports he was involved in a bar room brawl with former UFC heavyweight champion Tim Sylvia.

Earlier this week, blogs and internet forums were reporting that Affliction fighter Sylvia had suffered a broken nose and black eye at the hands of the Big Red Machine.

They had supposedly traded blows at a venue in Detroit with the 7ft, 320lbs wrestling star, real name Glen Jacobs, said to have come out on top.

However a WWE spokesman immediately dismissed the story, saying: "This is a total fabrication."

Pals of the pair added that neither man had been in Detroit at the time of the alleged incident.

And now, for the first time, Kane has spoken out about the rumours.

Speaking exclusively to SunSport, he said: "I was sitting at home at the time and someone told me – that was the first I’d heard about it.

"I hear I handled it pretty well though. I’m happy with myself!

"I’m pretty sure Tim won’t hold a grudge though."

Wondering what would happen if an MMA and WWE fighter did meet under UFC rules, the former world champion added: "Look at what Brock Lesnar’s doing.

"Undertaker trained MMA style and I have to some extent too. I actually got my start as a shoot fighter in Japan.

"Wrestlers are a little tougher than we’re generally given credit for and I think we’d represent ourselves well.

"By the same token, how well would the MMA guys fare in the WWE ring?

"I respect what they do though. They are tough guys and have done a great job marketing their sport."

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/wrestling/article2331793.ece

cowzerp

Fozzy lets get 1 thing straight, Pro wrestling does not prepare a fighter for MMA.

Boxing, Muay thai, BJJ, Greco and Freestyle wrestling do, people talking about pro wrestlers as fighters is laughable-maybe they where fighters before the pro wrestling? well then talk about that, not the fact that they done fake wrestling..

Pro wrestling has no place on an MMA board as its not a part of MMA like the other arts i mentioned, Brock lesnar in an MMA perspective is from an amateur wrestler background, the pro wrestling helped him in no way bar advertising him..

Keep pro wrestling on the pro wrestling board or at least stop crediting it for fighters abilities..

cowzerp

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Who doesn't realise this Paul? I've seen numerous people come out with similar statements but I've never come across anybody, bar kids who didn't take pro-wrestling for what it was. .

Tim the thing is people on here always talk about pro wrestlers in the same light as Pro MMA fighters and compare them, its ludicrous..

We know its acting but why is it always talked about on here?
i dont know..its nothing to do with MMA..

and my point on some Wrestlers been tough, your missing the point, i dont mean tough as in they dont go through hardships, i mean some are just tough fighters naturally and this is in no way related to the wrestling.

rovert

cowzerp wrote: »

Fozzy lets get 1 thing straight, Pro wrestling does not prepare a fighter for MMA.

Boxing, Muay thai, BJJ, Greco and Freestyle wrestling do, people talking about pro wrestlers as fighters is laughable-maybe they where fighters before the pro wrestling? well then talk about that, not the fact that they done fake wrestling....

MMA is of course a mixture of disciplines much like Pro Wrestling is mixture of disciplines. There is a high degree of cross pollination between the two.

cowzerp wrote: »

Pro wrestling has no place on an MMA board as its not a part of MMA like the other arts i mentioned

PRIDE was heavily influenced by Pro Wrestling. UFC's promotional and business model is exactly the same as WWE's. Dana White has prasied Vince McMahon many, many times.

The thread title was a joke by the way cowzerp.

cowzerp wrote: »

Tim the thing is people on here always talk about pro wrestlers in the same light as Pro MMA fighters and compare them, its ludicrous..

Link?

cowzerp

rovert wrote: »

The thread title was a joke by the way cowzerp.

Im aware of that, even if a pro wrestler bashed tim sylva or anyone else means nothing other than the individual can fight, im out of this anyway as its pointless anyway and i've explained my points as best i could...

Fozzy

cowzerp wrote: »

Fozzy lets get 1 thing straight, Pro wrestling does not prepare a fighter for MMA.

I'd argue that in certain ways it does, although they're minor and more to do with creating interest in yourself and not to do with performance

cowzerp wrote: »

Boxing, Muay thai, BJJ, Greco and Freestyle wrestling do, people talking about pro wrestlers as fighters is laughable-maybe they where fighters before the pro wrestling? well then talk about that, not the fact that they done fake wrestling..

Yes, many of the pro wrestlers were accomplished martial artists before doing pro wrestling. There are more NCAA division I wrestling champions who did pro wrestling than MMA. But the point that you seem to be missing is that the pioneers of MMA in Japan wouldn't have been able to generate the interest to evolve the sport without the popularity that they already had from pro wrestling. You're also overlooking the fact that a large part of a Japanese pro wrestler's training involves legitimate martial arts training

cowzerp wrote: »

Keep pro wrestling on the pro wrestling board or at least stop crediting it for fighters abilities..

I never did that. You're really not listening to me at all, are you? :pac:

roo1981

Haven’t been on here in ages, but here’s my two (or rather 50) cents..

I’m not a huge fan of WWE as it is today-sports entertainment, no doubt. I do however have a problem with the general lack of respect MMA fans tend to have towards good ole school pro wrasslin, which mainly stems out of ignorance of the sports history and general snottyness towards its fans.

First and foremost people, MMA IS NOT A NEW SPORT-its been practised in one form or another across every continent since man decided he could have fun beating the snot out of his friends an neighbours with a few people watching (and sometimes without). Dana White and the UFC are just the latest incarnation of it.

Before I go any further on the Pro Wrasslin MMA thingy, check out this-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzk66VwinCc&eurl=http://www.subfighter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80823

Anyone with any degree of commonsense will agree that amateur wrestling has had a huge influence on MMA. Well, back around 1900-1940 (a golden era for all combat sports) there was no 'pro' or 'amateur' wrestling-wrestling or grappling was seen as a style in itself that included both pinfall or submission as a way of victory, similar to Japanese Judo.

During the 1920's-1930's, carnivals would regularly travel around the Southern US states, holding boxing and wrestling (and indeed sometimes crossover fights-hence 'MMA' if you will) promotions. Boxing proved the more profitable for promoters, mainly due to vicious beatings and KO's that it provided-much more dramatic than your average 45 minute slow paced wrestling match. Interestingly, many of the atheletes crosstrained-Jack Johnston, the first black heavyweight champion being an example. He would box at the carnivals then moonlight as a wrestler to make more money if the full time wrestlers were sick or injured.

Wrestling, however, began to die a death at the hands of boxing, and some unscrupulous promoters began fixing matches with the intent of making some easy money off gambling while they still had the chance. Wrestlers and promoters eventually both copped on to the profitability of this, and 'worked' wrestling matches soon became the norm.

A schism soon took place within the sport, with some wrestlers viewing the upstart worked promotions as an unseemly corruption, and others seeing as it as a possibility of a career and some easy bucks-the former being referred to as 'Amateurs', the latter 'Professionals'

Throughout the 1940s and up until the 1980s, the schism became more pronounced. At this point it’s hard to tell which side of the art became the bastard son of the grappling, Pro Wrestling or Amateur. Amateur eventually worked off a points system but dumped the submission aspect while maintaining throws and pins as its basis for victory (again, much like Judo) and became an international sport, as well as a huge focal point (I **** you not) of the cold war as American and Russian wrestlers faced off in the Olympics.

Pro Wrestling concentrated more on the out of the ring dramas and storylines that would build a fanbase and maximise a fanbase-however in the ring techniques became more flashy and interestingly, more visually (and physically) devastating if performed with intent-mainly to appease the fans desire for violence. Many 'Pro' wrestling moves were banned from the amateur sport as they involved spiking (bouncing an opponent directly on his head) of some discription

Interestingly, many wrestlers trained at both (and indeed still do), normally starting off Amateur in high school and college, then going 'Pro' if Olympic wrestling proved an unattainable goal or they wished to pursue wrestling as a career rather than a 9 to 5. The 90's proved a final jump for Pro Wrasslin-Vince McMahon bought up most rival promotions, ending the golden era, and Pro Wrasslin became Sports Entertainment.

Now here where’s our argument comes in-is MMA influenced by Pro Wrestling?
Well, in the ring, it’s certainly been influenced by those with an amateur wrestling background, and now with the likes of Lesnar and Lashley crossing over, those with both Amateur and Pro. The above video also shows plenty of old school 'pro' wrestling moves being implemented successfully by new school MMA fighters, so I guess so. It appears to me that most of the pro wrestlers crossing over are trying to remain respectful to both sports, while the MMA fighters seem to be the ones with the axe to grind.

Out of the ring, Dana White has proclaimed Vince McMahon to be a genius on many an occasion, and seems to be trying to push a WWE style dominance onto the sport of MMA. If MMA's top promoter thinks he can learn from the way Pro Wrestling operates, I guess it most certainly could (or will) be an influence on MMA in general. Incidentally, I think early pro wrestlins style of promoting fights (grudge matches, backstories with good guys and bad guys) is starting to seep into MMA-the GSP and BJ Penn (and Hughes\Serra for that matter) being prime examples.

Anyhow, I waffle. My 2 cents has turned into a couple of Euros and sore fingers from typing too much

Fozzy

^Very good post, by the way

Roper

Sort of a WWE skewed thread this that ignores the influences of Frye, Lions Den, Gracies, Militechs etc. etc. on MMA.

WWE might influence the manner in which the sport is marketted but has nothing to do with influencing the manner in which fights take place. But that's a bit like saying that the Glazers have an influence on the way Man Utd play.

rovert

Roper wrote: »

Sort of a WWE skewed thread this that ignores the influences of Frye, Lions Den, Gracies, Militechs etc. etc. on MMA.

They weren’t intentionally ignored people were talking about the influence of Pro Wrestling on MMA. No one said that MMA was completely influenced by Pro Wrestling.

Roper wrote: »

WWE might influence the manner in which the sport is marketted but has nothing to do with influencing the manner in which fights take place.

Please elaborate further. Fighters do come out to ring music and PRIDE's case pyro if that is what you mean.

Roper wrote: »

But that's a bit like saying that the Glazers have an influence on the way Man Utd play.

Not true Pro Wrestling has had a direct and cited impact on what get emphasised and what doesn’t in UFC and most of MMA. Without the Pro Wrestling influence UFC originally probably wouldn’t have taken off, PRIDE probably wouldn’t have came into existence as we know it and you probably wouldn’t have gotten the UFC boom of 2005-present.

dunkamania

I have amended the heading. There are some interesting topics raised here, that people want to discuss. So feel free to discuss the broader impact of pro wrestling on MMA, away from the OP.

Ground rules- If you dont like MMA or pro wrestling, fair enough, but this topic is not the place to discuss it, so please keep it respectful.

My two cents. MMA in the US evolved from TMA competitions, while in Japan it evolved from Pro-wrestling, hence the differing cultures surrounding the same sport in two different countries.

As for, business models, the UFC essentially follows the model created by the WWE. Everything from brand control, to merchandising, to geographical targeting. Most MMA fans I know, were at some point fans of WWE, or still are.

Fozzy

Roper wrote: »

Sort of a WWE skewed thread this that ignores the influences of Frye, Lions Den, Gracies, Militechs etc. etc. on MMA.

I've made a point not to mention WWE at all in this thread

Remember those leglocks that Ken Shamrock was so famous for? He learned them in pro wrestling training

Don Frye was a big star in Japan years before he fought for PRIDE because he was a successful pro wrestler for New Japan. That helped him a lot by the time he did MMA in Japan

Do you have any idea how many pro wrestlers helped Helio Gracie's legacy grow? People weren't turning up just to see Helio fight, they were turning up because it was their guy versus the big bad pro wrestler. Total pro wrestling model

Masahiko Kimura was well into his pro wrestling career when he pulled off the move against Helio that got named after him

Mitsuya Maeda, who taught the Gracies in the beginning, financed his tours by doing pro wrestling. Without pro wrestling as a means to make money, he might never have been to Brazil and BJJ wouldn't exist

Roper

And that atom bomb? 1945? That's right, pro wrestling.

Look when we talk about pro wrestling, we're talking about a few guys who were real fighters in other arts who made a bit of money on the side by acting out some rigged fights. Don't make it out to be some kind of genesis for MMA it simply wasn't. It may have created a market and it is what it is but that's it.

Personally I cannot stand pro wrestling, but I see the massive marketing machine that is the WWE and what it has given the UFC in terms of fanbase and ideas. I credit that.

Fozzy

I really don't think that you're understanding the nature of Japanese or pre-WWE pro wrestling. It's not the same as WWE. To give you an idea, many, many pro wrestlers who worked pre-1970 have said how much MMA reminds them of pro wrestling in their day. There's almost a unanimous consensus from the wrestlers who I've heard speak on the matter that the UFC is closer to their era of pro wrestling than any modern pro wrestling is

cowzerp

Fozzy wrote: »

I really don't think that you're understanding the nature of Japanese or pre-WWE pro wrestling. It's not the same as WWE. To give you an idea, many, many pro wrestlers who worked pre-1970 have said how much MMA reminds them of pro wrestling in their day. There's almost a unanimous consensus from the wrestlers who I've heard speak on the matter that the UFC is closer to their era of pro wrestling than any modern pro wrestling is

I watched wwf before it was wwe and it was just as fake but just less story lines, i remember 1 event and they poured some fake blood all over this lads head and it was so obvious!

Look i think batman would be bashed by superman but again its not real life just like pro wrestling, as roper said, these mma pro wrestlers came from real martial arts and just made money through pro wrestling, your not getting that.

Fozzy

cowzerp wrote: »

I watched wwf before it was wwe and it was just as fake but just less story lines, i remember 1 event and they poured some fake alone all over this lads head and it was so obvious!
Look i think batman would be bashed by superman but again its not real life just like pro wrestling, as roper said, these mma pro wrestlers came from real martial arts and just made money through pro wrestling, your not getting that.

When I said pre-WWE, I wasn't talking about 2001, I was talking about the '70s and before. How much of that have you seen?

You cannot tell me with a straight face that all pro wrestling did for Funaki, Tamura, Sakuraba, Shamrock, Suzuki and Takada was provide them with a paycheck. It enabled them to do so much more in bringing MMA into the mainstream in Japan. I can't understand how anyone could deny this, unless they haven't read about it before and just refuse to believe it because of a pre-conceived notion that all pro wrestling is the same as what WWE puts on


EDIT: Here's one of many good articles explaining the role of pro wrestling in the evolution of MMA: www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/great-article-link-between-mma-pro-wrestling-japan-675263

rovert

Roper wrote: »

And that atom bomb? 1945? That's right, pro wrestling.

Look when we talk about pro wrestling, we're talking about a few guys who were real fighters in other arts who made a bit of money on the side by acting out some rigged fights. Don't make it out to be some kind of genesis for MMA it simply wasn't. It may have created a market and it is what it is but that's it.

Personally I cannot stand pro wrestling, but I see the massive marketing machine that is the WWE and what it has given the UFC in terms of fanbase and ideas. I credit that.

cowzerp wrote: »

I watched wwf before it was wwe and it was just as fake but just less story lines, i remember 1 event and they poured some fake alone all over this lads head and it was so obvious!
Look i think batman would be bashed by superman but again its not real life just like pro wrestling, as roper said, these mma pro wrestlers came from real martial arts and just made money through pro wrestling, your not getting that.

It seems one side in this thread is backed up by historical facts and the other seems to be based on generalisations about something they don’t understand. How many more facts need to be posted before the penny will drop? You can deny it all you want but the question isn’t was MMA influenced by Pro Wrestling the extent of it is only in question. Every historian I’ve read makes the very many links between the two, it is hardly a minority opinion here. If you personally can’t then I question your own understanding of the history of MMA. None of these historians I’ve read have ever claimed a connection I’ve found unreasonable so I don’t know where that Atomic bomb line came from MMA is a multi discipline, multi cultural, multinational combat sport which Pro Wrestling had a pretty significant part in shaping considering it isn’t a pure sport.

Tim_Murphy

It seems one side in this thread is backed up by historical facts and the other seems to be based on generalisations about something they don’t understand.

+1.

Nothingcompares

the tables have really turned on the MMA folk

Roper

Sorry lads, I have read manys a book on the old pro and amateur wrestlers but not any about the postwar period. I knew about Jack Johnson, Kimura etc. but not too much about the more recent history of the pro-wrestling game. You've proved your points I stand corrected.

cowzerp

My argument is in the actual fighting, not the marketing, i,ve said my piece and nothing has changed in my perspective..i think we're arguing on different subjects on the most part here.

Im worse for debating with you's on this subject, im off to debate wheter superman is really the best super hero in the world, My mate thinks the Hulk is stronger!!

rovert

cowzerp wrote: »

My argument is in the actual fighting, not the marketing, i,ve said my piece and nothing has changed in my perspective..i think we're arguing on different subjects on the most part here.

Im worse for debating with you's on this subject, im off to debate wheter superman is really the best super hero in the world, My mate thinks the Hulk is stronger!!

I here someone tapping out and it aint me. Actually read the topic in any case and then come back to me.

Raze_them_all

rovert wrote: »

I here someone tapping out and it aint me. Actually read the topic in any case and then come back to me.

Don't forget what you originally posted this thread as either

Tim_Murphy

Look i think batman would be bashed by superman but again its not real life just like pro wrestling, as roper said, these mma pro wrestlers came from real martial arts and just made money through pro wrestling, your not getting that.

lol, :rolleyes: . If the only two pro-wrestlers a person has heard of who went on to do MMA are Lesnar and Lashley then I'd forgive them for making that comment, otherwise I would just say they didn't know what they are talking about.

rovert

Raze_them_all wrote: »

Don't forget what you originally posted this thread as either

As a reaction to people who seem to have a mindset similar to cowzerp's?

Fall_Guy

There seems to be points being missed on both sides here. I don't think Cowzerp is arguing that MMA has not been influenced by pro-wrestling with regards to the promotion and presentation.

I think he is taking exception to the implication that the fundementals of MMA as a discipline are influenced by pro-wrestling. MMA is a multi-range combat sport that generally sees people training in boxing/muai thai, wrestling/judo and bjj. Pro-wrestling has also borrowed from these disciplines and many pro-wrestlers have been versed in some of these disciplines but that does not mean that pro-wrestling has contributed to the techniques used by mixed martial artists.

I don't know why the history of pro-wrestling is a factor. I'm aware that there were a lot of shoot fighters in pro-wrestling in the early days, I'm aware that pro-wrestling grew out of shoot fighting in the states. But in that case would it not be better to argue that real fighting influenced the development of pro-wrestling as we see it today rather than trying to argue that pro-wrestling influenced the development of MMA as a discipline.

I think there are probably two different discussions going on with both being correct. UFC and Pride both took on the pro-wrestling model of promoting their shows, without which the sport probably wouldn't have grown. Many pro-wrestlers have had successful mma careers.

BUT the discipline (artform, call it what you will) of pro-wrestling in and of itself has not contributed to the evolution of MMA as a multi-range discipline. Someone who has no grounding in wrestling/bjj/judo/boxing/muay thai etc... but is a very skilled pro wrestler does not have a solid base with which to compete and develop in MMA in the way that someone with a grounding in the other disciplines mentioned does.

rovert

Fall_Guy wrote: »

There seems to be points being missed on both sides here. I don't think Cowzerp is arguing that MMA has not been influenced by pro-wrestling with regards to the promotion and presentation.

I think he is taking exception to the implication that the fundementals of MMA as a discipline are influenced by pro-wrestling. MMA is a multi-range combat sport that generally sees people training in boxing/muai thai, wrestling/judo and bjj. Pro-wrestling has also borrowed from these disciplines and many pro-wrestlers have been versed in some of these disciplines but that does not mean that pro-wrestling has contributed to the techniques used by mixed martial artists.

I don't know why the history of pro-wrestling is a factor. I'm aware that there were a lot of shoot fighters in pro-wrestling in the early days, I'm aware that pro-wrestling grew out of shoot fighting in the states. But in that case would it not be better to argue that real fighting influenced the development of pro-wrestling as we see it today rather than trying to argue that pro-wrestling influenced the development of MMA as a discipline.

I think there are probably two different discussions going on with both being correct. UFC and Pride both took on the pro-wrestling model of promoting their shows, without which the sport probably wouldn't have grown. Many pro-wrestlers have had successful mma careers.

I disagree that there has been points missed on my "side" if anything I wish the other side would make a reasonable point other than just making generalisations about something they don’t understand. If after x amount of posts you can only think and not know that he is taking exception to the implication that the fundementals of MMA as a discipline are influenced by pro-wrestling then obviously he did a poor job making his point. If cowzerp and yourself read the thread you would have seen Fozzy's post about Mitsuya Maeda and is influence on the Gracies for example you would see that the point you think he is making is incorrect.

Fall_Guy wrote: »

BUT the discipline (artform, call it what you will) of pro-wrestling in and of itself has not contributed to the evolution of MMA as a multi-range discipline. Someone who has no grounding in wrestling/bjj/judo/boxing/muay thai etc... but is a very skilled pro wrestler does not have a solid base with which to compete and develop in MMA in the way that someone with a grounding in the other disciplines mentioned does.

That is why I referred to it as an influence. It being an influence means it did contribute to the evolution of MMA as a multi-range discipline and as a business.