Israel troops admit Gaza abuses

dlofnep

Israel troops admit Gaza abuses

An Israeli military college has printed damning soldiers' accounts of the killing of civilians and vandalism during recent operations in Gaza.

One account tells of a sniper killing a mother and children at close range whom troops had told to leave their home.

Another speaker at the seminar described what he saw as the "cold blooded murder" of a Palestinian woman.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7952603.stm

wes

I would say I am shocked, but this hardly unexpected considering the carnage in Gaza.

dlofnep

In another cited case, a commander ordered troops to kill an elderly woman walking on a road, even though she was easily identifiable and clearly not a threat.

Seems pretty shocking behaviour to me.

wes

dlofnep wrote: »

Seems pretty shocking behaviour to me.

Well, if you come to expect this sort of thing from the IDF, it is in no way shocking. Also, the various stories from people in Gaza, also told about similar acts of murderous mayhem on the part of the IDF. So, now we seem to be getting confirmation from the soldiers themselves as well.

Scofflaw

A reminder about how to start threads:

Topics should not be verbatim quotes from some article without comment from the thread starter. Add a comment before or after the post, offering your opinion on the subject, or at the very least, your reason for adding the topic.

It's in the forum charter.

moderately,
Scofflaw

dlofnep

I find it to be disgusting behaviour.

Care to add your thoughts on the situation Scofflaw?

g5fd6ow0hseima

I read there this morning that one group of soldiers, upon recieving orders to hold fire against civilain areas, protested loudly, 'we must kill them all, they are all terrorists'.

Now, tell me that the IDF are not today's Wehrmacht!!!

A Dub in Glasgo

'It is anti-semitic to believe the propaganda spouted by that Military College'*

* say the Israeli fanboys

It is digusting behaviour although it is not surprising

Manic Moran

Everleigh Long Dewdrop wrote: »

I read there this morning that one group of soldiers, upon recieving orders to hold fire against civilain areas, protested loudly, 'we must kill them all, they are all terrorists'.

Now, tell me that the IDF are not today's Wehrmacht!!!

Common historical misconception. The Wehrmacht actually had a very good reputation for civility, the problem came after they moved on and the responsibility for the now-conquered area was transferred to other organisations, such as the SS, which had their own views as to how to treat locals. The most egregious example was in the invasion of the Soviet Union, where the SS managed to turn the citizentry of Soviet satellite states who had greeted the Wehrmacht as liberators and then worked well with them into bitter enemies of Germany.

Now, if you wish to compare with the SS, you must then ask yourself two further questions: Did the SS issue orders to not fire upon civilian areas, and did the Israeli soliders in this case obey those orders?

If the Israeli military is letting these various allegations become public and they are being investigated, then that strikes me as a good thing.

NTM

Mr.Micro

We must not forget after the last IDF campaign that Olmert stated that the state would protect soldiers accused of war crimes or atrocities. So any investigations will mean what?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7850085.stm

philologos

Everleigh Long Dewdrop wrote: »

I read there this morning that one group of soldiers, upon recieving orders to hold fire against civilain areas, protested loudly, 'we must kill them all, they are all terrorists'.

Now, tell me that the IDF are not today's Wehrmacht!!!

There are extremists in every society, and if you live in a conscripted state unfortunately some of this seeps into military institutions. I would argue that some do not represent all. As such I would say that those people who carried out those acts are wrong, but I'm not sure if we can say that this translates immediately to the whole IDF and every single soldier in it.

Mr.Micro wrote: »

We must not forget after the last IDF campaign that Olmert stated that the state would protect soldiers accused of war crimes or atrocities. So any investigations will mean what?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7850085.stm

I thought this only referred to international proceedings. IDF troops have been called before the Israeli Supreme Court in the past and I have no reason to doubt that they will do it again.

brianthebard

Jakkass wrote: »

There are extremists in every society, and if you live in a conscripted state unfortunately some of this seeps into military institutions. I would argue that some do not represent all. As such I would say that those people who carried out those acts are wrong, but I'm not sure if we can say that this translates immediately to the whole IDF and every single soldier in it.

Even conscripted soldiers are tested beforehand. If you can be tested for drugs why not tested for extremist anti-palestinian sentiment?

philologos

brianthebard wrote: »

Even conscripted soldiers are tested beforehand. If you can be tested for drugs why not tested for extremist anti-palestinian sentiment?

People can be silent when they want to be. How exactly should this be tested?

The Saint

I wouldn't hold out too much hope in any internal Israeli investigation.

From the beginning of the current intifada (29 September 2000) to the end of 2007, more than 2,000 Palestinians were killed who were not taking part in the hostilities at the time they were killed. However, a Military Police investigation was opened in only 270 cases of suspected illegal shooting by soldiers. This number includes investigations into cases in which civilians were wounded. Only 30 of these investigations resulted in the filing of indictments.

Link

One significant reason police are not held accountable for harming Palestinians in the West Bank is that many cases of violence against Palestinians are not properly investigated. As a result, it is difficult to arrive at the truth and the chance of an indictment being filed is reduced. It is not surprising, then, that most cases of violence never reach the courtroom. Since the beginning of the intifada, in 2000, B'Tselem has reported to the Department for the Investigation of Police (DIP) 130 cases of police violence against Palestinians (not including shooting cases). Of these, DIP opened 100 investigations, which led to the prosecution of only nine police officers and disciplinary proceedings against only four police officers.

Link

According to DIP’s figures as published in
the state comptroller’s report, the majority
of complaints alleging illegal use of force
were not investigated (65 percent in 2002,
64 percent in 2003), or were investigated
and closed (30 percent in 2002, 32 percent
in 2003). Only three percent of the
complaints received in 2002 and 2003 led
to a disciplinary proceeding, and a criminal
prosecution was initiated against the alleged
wrongdoer in only 1.5 percent of the
cases.

Link

acontadino

scumbags.

Ping Chow Chi

It is what we have come to expect from the IDF.

GhostInTheRuins

It's really not shocking considering what I've heard of the IDF doing in the past.

wes

Jakkass wrote: »

There are extremists in every society, and if you live in a conscripted state unfortunately some of this seeps into military institutions. I would argue that some do not represent all. As such I would say that those people who carried out those acts are wrong, but I'm not sure if we can say that this translates immediately to the whole IDF and every single soldier in it.

From the Independent.co.uk:

---SNIP--
In one account, an infantry squad leader describes how troops released a family who had been held in a room of their house for several days. He said: "The platoon commander let the family go and told them to go to the right. One mother and her two children didn't understand and went to the left, but they forgot to tell the sharpshooter on the roof they had let them go and it was okay... The sharpshooter saw a woman and children approaching him. He shot them straight away. I don't think he felt too bad about it, because, as far as he was concerned, he did his job according to the orders he was given. And the atmosphere in general, from what I understood from most of my men who I talked to, the lives of Palestinians, let's say, is something very, very less important than the lives of our soldiers."
--SNIP--

--SNIP--
In their own words: Soldiers' stories

Squad leader Aviv

"At the beginning the directive was to enter a house with an armoured vehicle, to break the door down, to start shooting inside and to ascend floor by floor and – I call it murder – to go from floor to floor and to shoot at everyone we identify. In the beginning I asked myself how could this make sense? Higher-ups said it is permissible because everyone left in the city [Gaza City] is culpable because they didn't run away. This frightened me a bit. I tried to influence it as much as possible, despite my low rank, to change it. In the end the directive was to go into a house, switch on loudspeakers and tell them 'you have five minutes to run away and whoever doesn't will be killed'."
--SNIP--

Doesn't sound like a minority were doing this stuff to me. They were doing what they were doing as per there orders, which of course doesn't excuse what they did, but it shows that they were not lone nuts or anything.

Also, you need to look no further than the army Rabbi's words, which again show what was going on was very much main stream and not the product of a "few bad eggs":

IDF rabbinate publication during Gaza war: We will show no mercy on the cruel

Nodin

Jakkass wrote: »

I thought this only referred to international proceedings. IDF troops have been called before the Israeli Supreme Court in the past and I have no reason to doubt that they will do it again.

....to little effect. About the only concrete action thats been taken was to render illegal the practice of taking "human shields", and that was a split decision. The fact is that as a state hell bent on colonising its neighbour, it requires a mind set that views those people as 'lesser'. Such violence is inevitable in those circumstances.

philologos

So 2 accounts indicate to you that the majority of conscripted Israelis abused their power?

That's just at touch absurd don't you think?

I wonder will Hamas ever admit to their abuses, and their fearmongering prior to the Israeli election? It works two ways, this is a conflict of two sides. Yes, some IDF members have committed gross atrocities, just as the US and UK had done in Iraq, however it's clear that insurgents and militants whether that is in Iraq or the Occupied Territories are also responsible.

Nodin

Jakkass wrote: »

So 2 accounts indicate to you that the majority of conscripted Israelis abused their power?

Theres rather more to it than two testimonies
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-soldiers-leave-gaza-homes-devastated-condition-20090123

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1064161.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/18/israel-war-crimes-gaza-conflict

wes

Jakkass wrote: »

So 2 accounts indicate to you that the majority of conscripted Israelis abused their power?

That's just at touch absurd don't you think?

Ignoring the fact that they were following orders is what is absurd. They weren't lone nuts, they were doing as they were ordered by there higher ups, this immediately makes the entire IDF responsible.

Jakkass wrote: »

I wonder will Hamas ever admit to their abuses, and their fearmongering prior to the Israeli election? It works two ways, this is a conflict of two sides.

Completey irrelvent in the context of the current conversation. What Hamas did, provides no excuses for the state terrorism, colonizations and apartheid Israel regularly engages in. It should also be pointed out that the occupation came first and not Hamas.

I am well aware there are 2 sides, but one side (Israel) regularly claims to be the "most moral army" in the world. Which is nothing short of absurd.

**EDIT**
Also, Hamas were willing to extend the cease fire, as long as the siege of Gaza was ended. Of course, Israel still wanted to basically punish 1.5 million people with near stravation instead. They were also aided and abbetted by the West.

Jakkass wrote: »

Yes, some IDF members have committed gross atrocities, just as the US and UK had done in Iraq, however it's clear that insurgents and militants whether that is in Iraq or the Occupied Territories are also responsible.

Again, the IDF soldiers were following orders. This makes the entire IDF responsible.

As for Iraq and Afghanistan, there completey different, as they are not trying to colonize those places, which makes the conflicts very different.

philologos

wes wrote: »

Ignoring the fact that they were following orders is what is absurd. They weren't lone nuts, they were doing as they were ordered by there higher ups, this immediately makes the entire IDF responsible.

It makes elements of the IDF responsible, I would argue anyway.

wes wrote: »

Completey irrelvent in the context of the current conversation. What Hamas did, provides no excuses for the state terrorism, colonizations and apartheid Israel regularly engages in. It should also be pointed out that the occupation came first and not Hamas.

Of course it is considering the other combatants in this whole conflict seem to be let off the hook these days. Why can't we have the same standard applied to both?

It should also be pointed out that the history of Israel came much before 1967, you should really read up from the whole period 1860 - present it's a much more balanced picture than the one that is being portrayed in this video.

What I will say is, I'm personally a pacifist, I don't believe that war is the way to deal with political disputes. I however, don't think one can generalise a whole army by reports of a minority within it.

wes wrote: »

I am well aware there are 2 sides, but one side (Israel) regularly claims to be the "most moral army" in the world. Which is nothing short of absurd.

Where did you read that? If that is the case then I agree with you on that one.

wes wrote: »

As for Iraq and Afghanistan, there completey different, as they are not trying to colonize those places, which makes the conflicts very different.

Neither is Israel currently for the record, I believe the two state solution is tired however. The two state solution for me failed in 1948, the Palestinians rejected it. We need to start trying to find other solutions, I personally advocate a shared Israel between Palestinians and Israelis as the way to resolve this. I think the only issue with their settlement policy is that Palestinians are not allowed to live outside the West Bank and Gaza. People should be able to live wherever they want in the land of their origins.

wes

Jakkass wrote: »

It makes elements of the IDF responsible, I would argue anyway.

The entire organisation is responsible. The words of there Rabbis and there orders shows there was a culture of murderous impunity within the IDF.

Also, this is not the first time these kind of atrocities were commited by the IDF.

Jakkass wrote: »

Of course it is considering the other combatants in this whole conflict seem to be let off the hook these days. Why can't we have the same standard applied to both?

Well, Hamas are considered terrorists and the IDF are not. So Hamas are actually seen as worse, despite the fact that the IDF regularly engage in state terrorism and the Israeli government has promised to protect any war criminals as well.

Also, the West happily helps Israel punish the entire population of Gaza for the crimes of Hamas. So your right there is a double standard, where only the Palestinian side is ever punished, while Israel can get away with whatever it pleases, with the blessing of the West.

Jakkass wrote: »

It should also be pointed out that the history of Israel came much before 1967, you should really read up from the whole period 1860 - present it's a much more balanced picture than the one that is being portrayed in this video.

That Europeans came to Palestine to colonise the place? Yeah, when people do that, there called invasions. I am well aware of the history and I personally find the Zionist version to be complete nonsense.

Jakkass wrote: »

What I will say is, I'm personally a pacifist, I don't believe that war is the way to deal with political disputes. I however, don't think one can generalise a whole army by reports of a minority within it.

Its not a minority. Its is main stream as per there orders and as per there Rabbi's words. Then there is the fact that this happens all the time.

Jakkass wrote: »

Where did you read that? If that is the case then I agree with you on that one.

Here is one example:

From Haaretz:
Israel to grant legal aid to IDF troops accused of Gaza war crimes

--SNIP--
Defense Minister Ehud Barak joined Olmert in pledging support for the soldiers. Calling the IDF "the most moral army in the world," Barak said troops would receive governmental backing against accusations from abroad and "self-flagellation" from within Israel.
--SNIP--

There are plenty more if you look for them.

Jakkass wrote: »

Neither is Israel currently for the record, I believe the two state solution is tired however.

Israel is engaged in colonization:
27 Feb. '09: Settlement expansion plans

You see the settlements are a part of a colonization project, or you can call it apartheid as well. Both are valid.

Jakkass wrote: »

The two state solution for me failed in 1948, the Palestinians rejected it.

Can hardly blame them for that. Who would give up half there country for recently arrived European immigrants?

Jakkass wrote: »

We need to start trying to find other solutions, I personally advocate a shared Israel between Palestinians and Israelis as the way to resolve this. I think the only issue with their settlement policy is that Palestinians are not allowed to live outside the West Bank and Gaza. People should be able to live wherever they want in the land of their origins.

Well, what your calling for is a 1 state solution, which is looking increasingly likely if Israel keeps up there colonization of the West Bank.

philologos

wes wrote: »

The entire organisation is responsible. The words of there Rabbis and there orders shows there was a culture of murderous impunity within the IDF.

Also, this is not the first time these kind of atrocities were commited by the IDF.

I don't think just because you have certain Rabbis who say certain things means that the society is murderous. Would you really consider it fair if I said the same about certain Imams in Islam that we have both in the Middle East and in the West that say hateful things?

I'm quite aware it isn't the first time. Operation Defensive Shield in 2002 was quite notorious for abuses here. However, I'm not going to apply the minority to majority jump as other people seem to do. Not all IDF soldiers are there to abuse their positions, and the same applies for commanders also. I would like a situation where Israel didn't feel the need to have such a military structure but they do at present.

wes wrote: »

Well, Hamas are considered terrorists and the IDF are not. So Hamas are actually seen as worse, despite the fact that the IDF regularly engage in state terrorism and the Israeli government has promised to protect any war criminals as well.

"state terrorism" is merely rhethoric. What I will say is that their attacks on Gaza were really quite excessive and horrific, as was their attack on Lebanon even if they do claim that they had a legitimate Casus Belli violence on such a scale is abhorrent. I would apply the same to Hamas fearmongering Israelis to take a more conservative position in an election by firing rockets into the Negev.

wes wrote: »

Also, the West happily helps Israel punish the entire population of Gaza for the crimes of Hamas. So your right there is a double standard, where only the Palestinian side is ever punished, while Israel can get away with whatever it pleases, with the blessing of the West.

Again I don't approve of this at all. Having said that the Palestinian side isn't being punished by the West, but rather being punished by Israel.

wes wrote: »

That Europeans came to Palestine to colonise the place? Yeah, when people do that, there called invasions. I am well aware of the history and I personally find the Zionist version to be complete nonsense.

So? It was their ancestral homeland that they were removed forcibly out of by the Romans to suffer persecution in Europe.

Is it really fair to claim colonisation when infact Caliph Umar in 600AD colonised the place as a part of an effort to form the Islamic Caliphate an Islamic superstate basically.

wes wrote: »

Its not a minority. Its is main stream as per there orders and as per there Rabbi's words. Then there is the fact that this happens all the time.

Again, imams are guilty of this too. Yet I don't apply it to the majority of the Islamic population. Basically when you are claiming that all the IDF are bad, or most of them are, you are claiming that the majority of Israel's youth are bad people, and I don't agree with really at all they are just put into a horrible situation.

Also it may be best not to portray this as Jewish fundementalism because Muslims, Druze and Christians serve in IDF ranks.

wes wrote: »

Israel is engaged in colonization:
27 Feb. '09: Settlement expansion plans

You see the settlements are a part of a colonization project, or you can call it apartheid as well. Both are valid.

I agree with you that Palestinians should have a right to live in Israel. I don't agree that it is colonisation.

wes wrote: »

Can hardly blame them for that. Who would give up half there country for recently arrived European immigrants?

I can quite frankly. They could have lived in peace, and Palestinians were allowed to live in the Israeli state, and in Jerusalem as well. They weren't being forcibly moved, it was only after the war in 1948 when Al Naqba took place, and I don't agree with that in the slightest. However I will say that the agreement in 1948 was fair and reasonable when one looks at it.

Bear in mind the Palestinians had also gained that land through colonialism from the Byzantine Greeks in 600AD. We must apply our standards to all situations. We could go all the way back to Moses if we wanted to but I doubt that would be productive.

wes wrote: »

Well, what your calling for is a 1 state solution, which is looking increasingly likely if Israel keeps up there colonization of the West Bank.

I want a single state that respects Palestinian rights, we have a long way to go yet unfortunately

Ping Chow Chi

Jakkass wrote: »

I agree with you that Palestinians should have a right to live in Israel. I don't agree that it is colonisation.

what do you call whats happening in the westbank then?

philologos

Ping Chow Chi wrote: »

what do you call whats happening in the westbank then?

I don't agree with what is happening in the West Bank unless there is freedom of movement of Palestinians into Israel also.

I'd normally call such movement of people seeking a place to live as movement.

That said I don't see what the issue with Jews living in the West Bank is exactly if the Palestinian State was going to be a secular model such as Yassir Arafat described in an interview with Robert Fisk in Pity the Nation - Lebanon at War. Surely having Jewish people living among you wouldn't really impede such a model taking place. Not that I agree with the 2 state solution however.

Ping Chow Chi

What made Caliph Umar in 600AD colonization and this just a movement of people then? I'm not being picky I'm just interested in the differences.

dlofnep

For those who have defended Israel over the campaign, claiming that Hamas used the Palestinians as human shields; Does these latest findings not destroy such rhetoric? No longer can Israel blame the deaths of Palestinians on Hamas. They are not in a position to be directly responsible for the death of civilians.

The comments made suggested that it was the norm to disregard any respect for basic human rights of the Palestinian people by the IDF. I think it's time Israel's supporters woke up to the reality of the situation. When the IDF kills civilians, it gives the likes of Hamas all the fuel it needs in support of it's war against Israel.

Akrasia

from above article

one soldier said. "We are the people of Israel, we arrived in the country almost by miracle, now we need to fight to uproot the gentiles who interfere with re-conquering the Holy Land."

I don't think its fair to criticise the Israelis for the loss of civilian life, they clearly just have no sense of aim or direction, it did take them 40 years to walk from egypt to israel...... (its miraculous that they arrived at all)

philologos

Ping Chow Chi wrote: »

What made Caliph Umar in 600AD colonization and this just a movement of people then? I'm not being picky I'm just interested in the differences.

As for what made Caliph Umar take over Jerusalem and the surrounding areas from the Byzantines, there are disputed sources for that. I'm merely focusing on the aspect that it happened. As you know Israel has been a land that has passed through several peoples hands in the past.

Firstly prior to Moses' conquest, it was under several tribes such as the Caananites, the Amorites, the Hittites and so on.

The Biblical State of Israel existed among many other tribes such as the Philistines for centuries.

Israel eventually was divided into two separate Jewish kingdoms, Judah and Israel. Of which Israel was conquested by the Assyrians, and Judah was conquested by the Babylonians about 2 centuries later.

Then about 200 years after that the Greeks under Alexander the Great took it over.

Around that time there was a Jewish revolt by the Maccabees and then there was a Jewish kingdom for around 100 years prior to the Romans conquesting the land.

In 120AD the Jews were expelled forcibly by the Romans out of the city of Jerusalem for taking part in a violent uprising (Bar Kochbas uprising).

Following this, the Byzantine Empire eventually split from the Roman Empire and held possession of Israel.

In 600 AD Caliph Umar conquested it from the Byzantines.

Following this it fell into Ottoman hands until the 1st World War after which the land was seized by the British and the British Mandate of Palestine was formed.

Prior to this in Ottoman times Zionist settlement had began with Theodor Herzl leading the movement from Europe, calling for European powers to let them move to Israel if they hated the Jews so much.

This eventually led to the modern history that we are in today.

Lots of hands involved. Hence why I think a shared solution is much better than a 2 state one in a heavily contested land of 20,000 sq km approx.

dlofnep wrote: »

For those who have defended Israel over the campaign, claiming that Hamas used the Palestinians as human shields; Does these latest findings not destroy such rhetoric? No longer can Israel blame the deaths of Palestinians on Hamas. They are not in a position to be directly responsible for the death of civilians.

Not really, then again I wouldn't say that I defended Israel throughout, as that would indicate blind support. I don't support violent efforts by either side. Hamas, Hizbullah and others have been known to use apartment blocks and other structures to fire rockets in the past. It doesn't really harm the case that they used human shields, but it does bring to light that the IDF have some rather severe issues that they have to deal with.

dlofnep wrote: »

The comments made suggested that it was the norm to disregard any respect for basic human rights of the Palestinian people by the IDF. I think it's time Israel's supporters woke up to the reality of the situation. When the IDF kills civilians, it gives the likes of Hamas all the fuel it needs in support of it's war against Israel.

Human rights unfortunately are dismissed by both Israel, and by the Hamas leadership in Gaza.