Take us out of the recession...

andrewdeerpark

Let free market forces rein again.

Very important this toxic bank is not created allowing all the banks and developers push their debt onto the taxpayer.

Developers such as Kelly, Carroll, McNamara etc have to be ruined if they miss payments on loans or stall paying creditors. Have a fire sale of their assets and put them living in a caravan; no protection from going broke like the ordinary punter who misses his/her mortgage and ends up out on the street or in a bad face saving deal with the bank behind closed doors.

This toxic bank idea smacks of another powerful elite "Larry Goodman" style rescue idea with the rest of us sods paying 60% tax for our lifetime. While these boys ride out the storm and in 10 years time they (or their family) are back in the top 10 rich list.

Note the way all is now quiet before this toxic bank con is released together with a painful budget to distract the foolish public.

Tech3

NewDubliner wrote: »

Nor have I advocated forcing people to live in urban areas.

Given your crazy ideas I think people would have no other option but to live in urban areas even though you havnt actaully said it. I am totally against your ideas and that will never change.

NewDubliner

tech2 wrote: »

Given your crazy ideas I think people would have no other option but to live in urban areas even though you havnt actaully said it. I am totally against your ideas and that will never change.

Which ideas do you consider crazy?

Martyr

No offence intended NewDubliner, but what makes you think everyone in the country would want to live in Dublin?

I'd hate to live there.

There are certainly more job opportunities, shops..that kind of thing.
Apart from that, theres really nothing special about it.

NewDubliner

Martyr wrote: »

No offence intended NewDubliner, but what makes you think everyone in the country would want to live in Dublin?

My argument is not exclusively for Dublin, but for the idea that we need to concentrate work and workers in major urban centres. This will facilitate worker mobility, reduce long-distance commutes, congestion and costs in providing public services such as cycle tracks, public transport, water, sewage, broadband, hospitals, education, police, fire etc.

It's about competitiveness and economic realities: cities are more efficient.

The key is to stop subsidising lifestyle choices that undermine our competitiveness and to encourage people to make choices that facilitate the efficient provision of public services.

Those who can afford it can live wherever they like.

Martyr

Well, 1 of the main reasons alot of people didn't move to dublin was simply because it was and still is too expensive.. thats why alot of the foreigners went to the smaller towns around the country..

I don't think everyone moving into the major urban areas tomorrow would solve anything at all.

Its the government who are inefficient with how they're spending taxpayers money and overall running of the country.

NewDubliner

Martyr wrote: »

Well, 1 of the main reasons alot of people didn't move to dublin was simply because it was and still is too expensive. thats why alot of the foreigners went to the smaller towns around the country..

The foreigners went to work in meat factories and farms. These are mostly outside of Dublin.

It's true that it has been cheaper to buy housing outside of cities, but at the expense of commuting costs and congestion. It's also degraded our tourism assets and led in some cases to pollution of water sources. Additionally, social service costs in rural areas will be higher due to the geographical spread of the population. These are hidden costs to the economy. The housing differential is coming down, but the commuting costs are not. These costs erode our competitiveness. The commuting increases demand for imported fuel and vehicles. It's going to be hard to get this population to make choices that result in lifestyles that cost the economy less.

Martyr wrote: »

I don't think everyone moving into the major urban areas tomorrow would solve anything at all.

Nothing? Not anything? Why not? I've given reasons why this would be the case. You've given no counter-argument whatsoever other than that people don't want to. (And no, I do not propose that everyone moves.)

Martyr wrote: »

Its the government who are inefficient with how they're spending taxpayers money and overall running of the country.

For example, the hugely expensive & idiotic 'decentralisation' project, the subsidising of long-distance commuting and the abandonment of the spatial strategy.

Dannyboy83

In the past I turned down a better paid job in Dublin, in preference of a job in Cork. I believe i would do the same again in the future.

Money is nice, but its not everything.
For me, earning 5 to 10k less, can be be a fair trade off for not sitting in traffic for 2 to 3 hours everyday, just 1 of many of the drawbacks of Dublin.
Living here has its drawbacks too of course, I just consider the drawbacks of Dublin to be worse.

It takes me about 60seconds to walk to work since I moved in January.
I used to drive for 90mins each way when I lived in the city.

Martyr

NewDubliner wrote:

The foreigners went to work in meat factories and farms. These are mostly outside of Dublin.

How do you know?

NewDubliner wrote:

Nothing? Not anything? Why not?...

Now? nope..nothing.
The infrastructure isn't there to handle it (because as you know, gov + pub sector workers made b@lls of everything)

NewDubliner wrote:

You've given no counter-argument whatsoever other than that people don't want to

I said its too expensive, thats good enough reason for me.
I'm not prepared to pay €150 or more a week on a room in a stinkin city.

When i need to move to dublin, i'll probably move out of the country.

ejmaztec

Ireland is a big city with lots of green areas for us "city-dwellers" to walk around in. If we couldn't get away to these green city areas, some of us might become a little crazy.

NewDubliner

Martyr wrote: »

How do you know?

Because my farming friends were very grateful to hire Eastern Europeans when the local Irish didn't want to work on farms anymore.

Martyr wrote: »

I said its too expensive, thats good enough reason for me. I'm not prepared to pay €150 or more a week on a room in a stinkin city.When i need to move to dublin, i'll probably move out of the country.

That's your own personal lifestyle choice.

As a previous poster has pointed out, if you don't like Dublin, Cork is quite nice too. It's also a city and has similar efficiency advantages to Dublin.

The point is that we shouldn't subsidise lifestyle choices that don't contribute to economic competitveness. But, people who want to live away from cities are quite welcome to do so as long as it does not impose extra taxes or economic costs on the rest of us.

yoshytoshy

As an Irish(Dublin) born person ,the rural folk here are what make this country tick.
The small towns you pass by when you travel around Ireland and the craic in the pubs.

How anyone would want to take that away from us ,is beyond me

ionix5891

mikemac wrote: »

I seem to remember hearing Ireland, Finland and Russia were the only countries with large quantities of peat.

Hmmm, there's profit there somewhere, but I just can't see where yet.

actually all our "commercial" grade peat (stuff you burn in power plants) be gone in about a decade, ESB know and talked about this...

djpbarry

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

For me, earning 5 to 10k less, can be be a fair trade off for not sitting in traffic for 2 to 3 hours everyday, just 1 of many of the drawbacks of Dublin.

Are you aware that Cork has one of the highest rates of car ownership in the country, whereas Dublin has one of the lowest?

Martyr wrote: »

I'm not prepared to pay €150 or more a week on a room in a stinkin city.

A lot of Dubs would agree, which is probably why so many of us pay considerably less than €150 per week for a room.

I’m prepared to admit that living in the largest city in the country has it’s drawbacks, but let’s stick to the facts, shall we?

Dannyboy83

djpbarry wrote: »

Are you aware that Cork has one of the highest rates of car ownership in the country, whereas Dublin has one of the lowest?

Its about population density, planning and PT methods not car ownership.
Car Ownership in Cork is insane because there is no form of reliable public transport.
No Luas, No Dart, No Metro, No Motorways. Nada.
It still takes no more than an hour to go anywhere tho realistically because the roads are rather well planned and there is still just under 400,000 in the entire county.

Try get from Naas to Dublin Centre any day of the week.
You could do Skibereen or Dungarvan to Cork city centre in the same time despite the fabulous infrastructure in Dublin/Kildare etc.

Here are the population figures:

Cork City 119,418
City and Suburbs 190,384
Metropolitan Area 274,000
Greater Cork 380,400

Greater Cork project population 2011 : 409,000
Greater Cork project population 2021 : 458,900

Here is the development plan:
http://www.corkcoco.ie/co/pdf/431500.pdf

Until Cork starts to see some real development, it will probably stay like that. If you crammed the metropolitan area into Cork over night, it would grind to a half immediately.

A lot of Dubs would agree, which is probably why so many of us pay considerably less than €150 per week for a room.
I’m prepared to admit that living in the largest city in the country has it’s drawbacks, but let’s stick to the facts, shall we?

Cork wouldn't be as bad as Dublin for rent, but it wasn't far off it for a while either.
Don't know really what its like now as I moved out to the country in January when I saw all the new taxes coming.

NewDubliner

From The Guardian:

The image of cities is often traffic-clogged, polluted and energy-guzzling, but a new study has shown that city dwellers have smaller carbon footprints than national averages.

The report by London-based International Institute for Environment and Development (IIED) looked at 11 major cities on four continents, including London, Tokyo, New York and Rio de Janeiro.

It found per capita greenhouse gas emissions for a Londoner in 2004 were the equivalent of 6.2 tonnes of CO2, compared with 11.19 for the UK average.

The rural northeast of England, Yorkshire and the Humber, were singled out for having the highest footprints per capita in the UK.

In the US, New Yorkers register footprints of 7.1 tonnes each, less than a third of the US average of 23.92 tonnes.

The use of public transport and denser housing are two of the reasons for urbanites' comparatively low carbon footprints, the authors said, adding that the design of cities significantly affects their residents' emissions....

So, not only is city-living more cost effective in economic terms, it's also kinder to the environment.

emy-87

I am just a history student, but I have an idea...Why doesnt the government invest money in building schools, community buildings, more Luas tracks and roads? Then the builders would be employed, there would be more schools for teachers to work in, and social workers could work in the community centres. And the Infrastructure would be better. Or am I completely wrong? Bear in mind I have no idea about economics or politics, but that is my 2 cents!!

djpbarry

emy-87 wrote: »

Why doesnt the government invest money in building schools, community buildings, more Luas tracks and roads?

What money?

jimmmy

emy-87 wrote: »

.Why doesnt the government invest money in ........

What money is right. We are already borrowing 25 billion this year just to give to who.......our overpaid public service, our overpaid politicians, our dole ( higher than the minimum wage in the UK ), etc. No wonder we are at the bottom of the credit-worthiness league table of countries. Nobody will lend our govt more.

NewDubliner

jimmmy wrote: »

No wonder we are at the bottom of the credit-worthiness league table of countries. Nobody will lend our govt more.

Indeed.:rolleyes:

Ireland Sells Bonds at Its First Auction Since 2005

March 24 (Bloomberg) -- Ireland sold 1 billion euros ($1.36 billion) of bonds at its first auction in four years to raise cash as the economic slump saps tax revenue.

Irish 10-year bonds rose after the auction, reducing the difference in yield, or spread, between the securities and German benchmark notes to the narrowest in three weeks. The cost of insuring against a government default declined, credit- default swap prices showed.

“Ireland chose a fantastic time to put their toes back in the water,” said Peter Chatwell, a fixed-income strategist in London at Calyon, the investment-banking unit of Credit Agricole SA. “Risk appetite has improved and the spread is pulling in, suggesting the auction inspired a lot of confidence.” ...

Stay_in_Kampuchea

·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]A Tax of 75 Euro per week for High Earners, 50 Euro for Middle Income, 25 for Low Income and 25 from those on social welfare.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]1000 Euro Property Tax on every house, every year. If you Own Two Houses it’s 1500, Three 2000, four 2500, five or more 5000.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Carbon Tax.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Cull of public sector, cull of government departments, 20% State Wage reduction, TD’s Minister Salaries sliced by 30% No more junkets, mission’s fancy hotels.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Minimum wage to a European standard.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Investment in Green Energy Infrastructure /broadband etc.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Tribunals to be wound down Judiciary to be reformed.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Drug testing to be mandatory for public workers.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Casinos etc to be legalized.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Some drugs legalized and taxed.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]HSE to be culled, wages cut by 25%
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]RTE to be sold off.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Jnr Ministers wages cut of 50%
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Immigration to stop.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Outside companies to handle all public service recruitment 100% fairly without any interference from Government. Get rid of the Cute Whoore nephew factor.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Doll spongers (Never Worked, Dropped out of school etc) cut off if they refuse to reskill.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Those with Criminal Records don’t qualify for any form of social welfare payment
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Lone parents to be restricted, abortion to be legalized.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]County Councils to be reformed.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]State bodies to be sold off. State property to be sold.
·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Criminal Sentences for all forms of fraud.

privateBeavis

This website might interest you, its a countdown to the end of the recession. Anyone can register for free and enter when you think the recession will end and the countdown timer counts down to the average of all dates entered by users and can be chosen by country or average of all dates entered!
Seen as public confidence on spending is large part of recession this should give an idea of when people in general are thinking they’ll start spending again and perhaps the end of the recession!!

http://www.recessioncountdown.com

smallBiscuit

The reason to the recession is people aren't spending. So, everyone who reads this you yourself and everyone you know go out and buy something expensive, like a new car or boat.
If you feel you haven't got any room at your house for these items pm me and I'll give you my address, I'll 'store' it for you

NewDubliner

smallBiscuit wrote: »

The reason to the recession is people aren't spending.

Nobody's spending because there is no certainty, no confidence.

With the private sector facing real pain, pay cuts all round, IN&M screaming for public sector workers to be sacked and public utilities to be sold off to speculators, nobody knows where they'll be next year.

Who would want to be seen in a '09 car? You might be mistaken for a public servant or an Anglo director!

This could be the end of the consumer society as we know it.

silverharp

emy-87 wrote: »

I am just a history student, but I have an idea...Why doesnt the government invest money in building schools, community buildings, more Luas tracks and roads? Then the builders would be employed, there would be more schools for teachers to work in, and social workers could work in the community centres. And the Infrastructure would be better. Or am I completely wrong? Bear in mind I have no idea about economics or politics, but that is my 2 cents!!

It would be like going to Zimbabwe and telling the to build an Opera house. Running up debts to pay people digging holes is not the answer. Before long the Irish Gov would be paying double digit interest rates.

silverharp

NewDubliner wrote: »

This could be the end of the consumer society as we know it.

I hope so:pac:

NewDubliner

silverharp wrote: »

I hope so:pac:

Desire lies at the root of all misery.

BroomBurner

I think the government should look at the Norwegian approach to alcohol. Granted, they began with prohibition, so it may be slightly easier to do this, but you have to start somewhere! In Norway, alcohol is only sold in state off-licences.

If the Irish were to do the same, say, with alcohol and cigarettes, they could make a mint and help stop the anti-social behaviour attributed with them (the drinking mainly).

Granted, the idea needs a little more working out, but imagine if the government owned all the off-licences in the country??

djpbarry

BroomBurner wrote: »

If the Irish were to do the same, say, with alcohol and cigarettes, they could make a mint and help stop the anti-social behaviour attributed with them (the drinking mainly).

How?

BroomBurner wrote: »

Granted, the idea needs a little more working out, but imagine if the government owned all the off-licences in the country??

I'm curious to know why a state-owned off-license monopoly would be a good thing?

Tech3

emy-87 wrote: »

I am just a history student, but I have an idea...Why doesnt the government invest money in building schools, community buildings, more Luas tracks and roads? Then the builders would be employed, there would be more schools for teachers to work in, and social workers could work in the community centres. And the Infrastructure would be better. Or am I completely wrong? Bear in mind I have no idea about economics or politics, but that is my 2 cents!!

I discussed this earlier in the thread and nesf clearly showed that we cannot implement keynesian economics. Small projects are the only answer being constructed each year. Were not looking at any more major road projects going ahead after next year. The N17 tuam-gort PPP has been submitted for a contractor at the moment and that might be the only new project going ahead in 2010 and for the next 5 years nilch.

Judging by the credit crunch not many banks will be able to finance the project so thats even a big maybe if it goes ahead. The government need to focus on the current schemes in construction and make sure they are completed on time. There is doubts regarding the western rail corridor as it might not be given the go ahead for phase 2 in the april budget.