College fees are possibly in.

Gavin "shels"

Mass rioting it is, French style baby.:cool:

If anyone watched Prime Time, David McWilliams was talking some amount of sense which is where my opinion has always been since the recession started, starting "raping" the eduction system of funding, reducing teachers and increasing fees will mean in my mind that we will be the last country out of this recession.

This, like the majority of things the Government is doing to supposely tackle our recession will not work. Like what muppets increase taxes when they want people spending, along with the UK decreases taxes, they seem to be adding 1+1 and getting 3.:rolleyes:

challengemaster

I just love being screwed over yet again by incompetent assholes in the government, without any reason either.

Fcuking useless shower of cúntbadgers!!! :mad: Yet another reason I hate this fúcking shíthole of an island called a country.

Fad

Davidius wrote: »

I always knew our politicians were a bit slow.

Since the day I was born I thought "I don't think these lads know what they're at".

Very first time I agree with you

Fad

Gavin shels wrote: »

Mass rioting it is, French style baby.:cool:

We could cobble Leinster House.

When? I cant wait!

Gavin "shels"

Fad wrote: »

We could cobble Leinster House.

When? I cant wait!

I was thinking more on the lines of petrol-bombs.:D

Love Ulster parade inside Leinster House maybe?:pac:

Fad

Gavin shels wrote: »

I was thinking more on the lines of petrol-bombs.:D

Love Ulster parade inside Leinster House maybe?:pac:

Pouring green custard on Bat is about as extreme as I could get without cobblestones.

Delta Kilo

Gavin shels wrote: »

Mass rioting it is, French style baby.:cool:

If anyone watched Prime Time, David McWilliams was talking some amount of sense which is where my opinion has always been since the recession started, starting "raping" the eduction system of funding, reducing teachers and increasing fees will mean in my mind that we will be the last country out of this recession.

This, like the majority of things the Government is doing to supposely tackle our recession will not work. Like what muppets increase taxes when they want people spending, along with the UK decreases taxes, they seem to be adding 1+1 and getting 3.:rolleyes:

I agree. Apparently raising VAT by half a percent cost us 700 million! rather than make us any money.

Its simple really:

Raise in irish VAT + Decrease in British VAT = traffic Jams on M1 to northern Ireland!

Delta Kilo

Fad wrote: »

We could cobble Leinster House.

When? I cant wait!

No I see a brick wall already. We are never going to get by those gardai with all their guns, pepper-spray, mace and tasers...oh wait. :D

Maybe they will join us and give us a hand cos they aint happy either. Anyone notice the decrease in Garda checkpoints on the roads? Overtime is gone you see!

challengemaster

ASTI.ie wrote:

Strike action March 30th and Oral Examinations

All three teacher unions have voted in ballots of members for up to two days industrial action in opposition to the government's unfair and inequitable handling of the economic crisis.

March 30th has been designated as a co-ordinated day of strike action for all unions including the ASTI, TUI and INTO. If the strike goes ahead - and a final decision on that will be taken over the next few days - oral examinations scheduled for March 30th will be held on another day that week.
Parents and pupils can be assured that the examinations will be conducted in the usual professional and objective manner by the qualified teachers employed by the State Examinations Commission.

Brainstorm here, but considering the teachers are going on strike on the 30th, how's about all the students join them showing our support, that we're also not happy with the goverments dealing of the economic situation... Chances are there'll be nobody in schools anyway... so that leaves the entire country of students at home, not missing any school... How hard would it be to merge with the teachers for a giant protest? No teachers = no examiners = No Orals that day = Students not missing Orals either way. We would probably also get some degree of respect from the teachers(examiners) too... ahem

Or am I just talking sleep deprived crap?

munchie14

gaurds, teachers, health service,us
takes these away and ur left with are builders with with nothing to build and businesses,,,,,
oh wait, their leaving the country too.
irelands gona become that desert island which we write about in the essay "what 3 things you would bring to a desert island"
emmm
jobs
money
education

(this already sounds better than what the goverment are bringing)

Gavin "shels"

Good idea (aimed at challengemaster) but I'd be more for a day off protesting, say it would send a stronger message if we had own on tbh.

The future of Ireland fighting for a better future could be the slogan.:D

munchie14

how can we get all involved,,,??
good idea

-ilikeshorts

Unfortunately anyone thinking they're just testing the water they aren't they were confirming his decision. Yes they're bringing it before the dail in april but it is happening what they are doing is waging up how much it will cost rather than "if" its "when" time and "how much"

amacachi

Yeah, have a march. Everyone knows it's too much hassle to vote between the ages of 18 and 30.

I think fees should be brought back in, despite the fact it's gonna cost me a fortune. Maybe it's because I was brought up used to the fact that sometimes there isn't money around for everything I was to do, a trait that no-one born after 1990 seems to have.

Even if you're under 18 the odds are you'll be old enough to vote in the next general election. Do something productive and get writing. Get your parents writing, get your older brothers and sisters writing, get your grandparents, aunties and uncles writing. If there is a Green Party TD in your constituency focus on them. All it takes is the Greens finally growing some balls and there'll be an election forced.

Of course the odds are that anyone who comes in will still have to bring in fees, which will show that it has to happen. But at least everyone can say they tried.

So DO SOMETHING PRODUCTIVE if you want things changed for God's sake. Grow up and move on from the temper tantrums when ya don't get your own way. Do what you and everyone else can do to change things under this thing called "democracy", it's called being an adult.
Having said that, it would be great to see the older workers in this country setting an example of this.

PurpleFistMixer

The 30th of March protest was ideally supposed to be a day of national strike, not just confined to the teachers... think what's happening in France at the minute ( http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0129/france.html ), so certainly anyone can, and should take support it. Unfortunately we in Ireland aren't quite at good at protesting as the French, perhaps because of those people who think they're being good citizens for "taking a bullet" for the government, but are inadverantly shooting us all in the foot, as I certainly believe we should in no way or form have to pay exclusively for the mistakes, greed and corruption of people who are getting away scot free in this situation, and if we keep laying down and letting them do it, well, the screwings-over shall continue. (Hm, A1 in English, who'da thunk it.)

As far as throwing temper tantrums go, amacachi, I certainly hope you're not suggesting that striking amounts to such. If a wide section of the workers in this country were to strike on the same day, the country would come to a halt and people might realise that it's just ordinary people - workers, who have this power, and they should use it when the government is doing ridiculous things we don't agree with. The government, supposedly being a democracy is supposed to be rule FOR and BY us, so why is it that what they do seems to be in contradiction with what is the general will? They should respect what the people wish, and if we don't make it clear what exactly it is we DO want, then it becomes very easy for them to defend their position ("Well, there has been very little opposition to these ideas, so one can only extrapolate that this is what is desired"). Though I wonder if I'm being optimistic assuming the government would ever feel obliged to justify its actions.

EDIT: Oh, and mod business here; I changed the wording of the title slightly to make it somewhat more accurate. I was almost on the phone to various people when I saw the title. Sensationalism bad!

amacachi

Again, if people got writing to their TDs then it's more likely something will be done. Rather than get the country into an even bigger hole financially.

What do "the people" think should be done then? How should the government plug the huge hole in the finances? Having a strike and putting no realistic alternative plans forward is the easy way out IMO.

mumtoe&e

yip - its true!!
its in todays Irish Independent!!!!
Wonder how much they will be??
I am starting college as a Mature Student this year - going to be screwed big time - worried sick now!

xOxSinéadxOx

hopefully I won't have to pay cos I'm too poor! or are they going to make everybody pay?

herisson

utter bullsh*t i can barely afford to go to uni as it is
its RIDICULOUS id say there will be a drop in the nums in uni if the costs are too high..... how much are the fees anyway??

El Che

The Report on Third level fees is to be published in April. I expect that we will know exactly what they're planning come the new Budget on the 7th of April.

Hopefully they will not be in Government to implement the fees come 2010, as there is speculation about a General Election taking place in the Summer but I'm not confident in that happening. A clear message can be sent out through the Local & European elections taking place on 5th of June.

A word of warning though, Fine Gael isn't much better. To quote a speaker at the Green Party (sold out to FF power) conference, "Fianna Fail and Fine Gael are two cheeks of the same arse".

Write to your local TDs, Senators, and even Councillors and MEPs:

• Contact TDs, Senators and MEPS using www.contact.ie (2 minutes of registration and then your can email them all in one go, en mass using a form
• Find your Local Councillors through Google and the County Council websites. Eg: Meath County Councillors

amacachi wrote:

What do "the people" think should be done then? How should the government plug the huge hole in the finances? Having a strike and putting no realistic alternative plans forward is the easy way out IMO.

How can free education be provided or fees minimised:

• Removal of the PRSI ceiling would generate an extra €223,000,000
• Make discretionary tax relief schemes available only at the standard rate of 21%, generating €1 billion.
• Impose a 3% levy on those earning over €200,000
• End Government subsidies to private schools, saving €90,000,000
• Increase the price of a packet of cigarettes by €2, generationg €320,000,000
• Conduct an immediate spending audit in all Government Departments to go through things with a fine tooth comb. I can name dozens of unnecessary quangos and expenses which are provided at the expense of both Local Authorities and National Government.

amacachi

El Che wrote: »

How can free education be provided or fees minimised:

• Removal of the PRSI ceiling would generate an extra €223,000,000
• Make discretionary tax relief schemes available only at the standard rate of 21%, generating €1 billion.
• Impose a 3% levy on those earning over €200,000
• End Government subsidies to private schools, saving €90,000,000
• Increase the price of a packet of cigarettes by €2, generationg €320,000,000
• Conduct an immediate spending audit in all Government Departments to go through things with a fine tooth comb. I can name dozens of unnecessary quangos and expenses which are provided at the expense of both Local Authorities and National Government.

*Should be done
*Which tax relief schemes?
*I don't think that's fair, but it may very well come in
*So get even more kids crammed into state-run schools? Go education!
*Does that include the corresponding drop off in demand? If not there's about €140,000,000 out of that straightaway, and quite a few more people would be making a break for the border
*So cutting jobs in other words?

El Che

amacachi wrote: »

*Should be done
*Which tax relief schemes?
*I don't think that's fair, but it may very well come in
*So get even more kids crammed into state-run schools? Go education!
*Does that include the corresponding drop off in demand? If not there's about €140,000,000 out of that straightaway, and quite a few more people would be making a break for the border
*So cutting jobs in other words?

• All tax relief schemes. As currently if you pay tax at 20% you claim at 20% but if you claim at 41% you claim at 41%.
• Those on higher incomes can well afford to pay higher taxes, there are people who are paying none to this country as they are "tax exiles" but are almost running the place. There's people earning more money a year here than some will see in their entire lives. Example: Tony O'Reilly.
• No, private run schools should run off the market. The taxpaying public, the vast majority of which do not use private schools, should not be propping them up. Same with private hospitals. The money saved from this should be pumped into both public systems.
• No it does not. As a non-smoker, all smokers can go North or go to hell in my opinion.
• Not necessarily, there are some jobs that should be cut as they are duplicated in certain agencies. All funding should be put towards "frontline services" rather than "administration".

I would also propose that:

• Social Welfare benefits should only be made available to Irish born citizens, as 50% of the local dole queues are foreign nationals as far as I can see. I've nothing against them, but we've to look after our own first.

amacachi

El Che wrote: »

• All tax relief schemes. As currently if you pay tax at 20% you claim at 20% but if you claim at 41% you claim at 41%.
• Those on higher incomes can well afford to pay higher taxes, there are people who are paying none to this country as they are "tax exiles" but are almost running the place. There's people earning more money a year here than some will see in their entire lives. Example: Tony O'Reilly.
• No, private run schools should run off the market. The taxpaying public, the vast majority of which do not use private schools, should not be propping them up. Same with private hospitals. The money saved from this should be pumped into both public systems.
• No it does not. As a non-smoker, all smokers can go North or go to hell in my opinion.
• Not necessarily, there are some jobs that should be cut as they are duplicated in certain agencies. All funding should be put towards "frontline services" rather than "administration".

I would also propose that:

• Social Welfare benefits should only be made available to Irish born citizens, as 50% of the local dole queues are foreign nationals as far as I can see. I've nothing against them, but we've to look after our own first.

Pardon my ignorance, but what are these tax relief schemes, and who's entitled to them?
*Like I said, I don't think it's fair that people who earn more should be panalised more heavily, but that's just a difference of opinion.
*Do you genuinely believe that the money saved in those subsidies would make up the difference if all those kids had to go to other schools? The parents pay into those schools too, without that money there is less money as a whole in the education system.
*Heh, so there's no fiscal logic for your wish to put the tax on cigarettes up, just your own hatred of the habit?
*I completely agree that there should be more money put into the frontline, but think of the strikes. There are a lot of people in these "mickey mouse" jobs. They go on strike and see what happens to the frontline.

Have to admit, I don't know where you live, but it more certainly isn't the case in my town. Out of over a hundred people in the queue over the 5/6 months I've been in to sign on I've seen 2 black people and 4 obviously Eastern European people. And I'd rather see them, after working their balls off, mostly for less than the lads on the site they were working with, getting some support than the 10% of people in the queue who left school as soon as they could sign on (I was in school with them) and the lads in their 40s who turn up to sign on ****faced and never worked a day in their lives.

Tech3

Will people who are entitled to the grant also have to pay the reg fee now?

Fad

El Che wrote: »

How can free education be provided or fees minimised:

• Removal of the PRSI ceiling would generate an extra €223,000,000
• Make discretionary tax relief schemes available only at the standard rate of 21%, generating €1 billion.
• Impose a 3% levy on those earning over €200,000
  
• End Government subsidies to private schools, saving €90,000,000
• Increase the price of a packet of cigarettes by €2, generationg €320,000,000
• Conduct an immediate spending audit in all Government Departments to go through things with a fine tooth comb. I can name dozens of unnecessary quangos and expenses which are provided at the expense of both Local Authorities and National Government.

Can you link me to a source about the 90,000,000 figure please, and a newspaper article will not suffice, an actual report please.

I'd say if they dropped funding to private schools, it'd end up costing the government money. I also notice that I've never heard a politician suggest that cut (Someone might have though, just never heard it).

This is NOT an invite for a debate about private schools in general, I just struggle to understand where you're coming from/believe your figure is a bit inflated for effect;

HQvhs

El Che wrote: »

• All tax relief schemes. As currently if you pay tax at 20% you claim at 20% but if you claim at 41% you claim at 41%.
• Those on higher incomes can well afford to pay higher taxes, there are people who are paying none to this country as they are "tax exiles" but are almost running the place. There's people earning more money a year here than some will see in their entire lives. Example: Tony O'Reilly.

So we're going to raise taxes while expecting people to spend more... :rolleyes:
People who are non-residents, and therefore pay no tax, for the most part don't generate much income in Ireland to be taxed on. They pay tax in other countries, the ones they work in. Eg, Denis O'Brien.

[*]No, private run schools should run off the market. The taxpaying public, the vast majority of which do not use private schools, should not be propping them up. Same with private hospitals. The money saved from this should be pumped into both public systems.

And yet you expect the "taxpaying public" to prop up Universities for all, even those who can afford them.
Of you remove tax-payer support from private schools we'll end up with a situation similar to the USA. Elite private schools for the uber-rich and awful public schools for everyone else.

[*]No it does not. As a non-smoker, all smokers can go North or go to hell in my opinion.

A big increase in taxes on cigarettes will result in an increase in inflation, and a big boost to the black market. Therefore, organised crime will receive a boost and we'll all be worse off. A sensible rise would be more appropriate.

[*]Not necessarily, there are some jobs that should be cut as they are duplicated in certain agencies. All funding should be put towards "frontline services" rather than "administration".

Such as? Please elaborate. Generalisations are useless. Would a school secretary count as "administration"? What exactly are "frontline services"? In the cases of the HSE, where there is duplication of services as a reult of the bungled health-board mergers a few years ago, I agree with you. But your point is a vast generalisation of public sector workers.

I would also propose that:

• Social Welfare benefits should only be made available to Irish born citizens, as 50% of the local dole queues are foreign nationals as far as I can see. I've nothing against them, but we've to look after our own first.

If they've paid enough PRSI, and worked in this country, then they qualify for social welfare payments and they deserve them. End of. Xenophobia can be left out of this. What is "our own"? Lets say for instance I was born in the UK, but moved to Ireland when I was 7, do I count as a "foreign national" with no right to social welfare? Does the same apply for someone who moved here from Poland 5 years ago, worked long hours on building sites for meagre wages. Now this person is unemployed and we're going to give him the finger and tell him to shove off? Yet you say we can afford to pay the dole to tossers who can't bother to do their JC and don't work an honest day in their lives? There's no need to be so reactionary.

SligoBrewer

amacachi wrote: »

Again, if people got writing to their TDs then it's more likely something will be done. Rather than get the country into an even bigger hole financially.

:rolleyes:
I hear the Minister for Finance doesn't bother to read crucial financial reports by PriceWaterhouse Coopers which he asked to be written. Your being very ambitious if you think that he'll bother to listen to the ordinary person on the street so.

thebigcheese22

Lads, ye in Leaving Cert now have to fight this thing. It is complete bullsiht to say that marching doesn't work - look at what marching did for the medical card issue

Apparently the idea is to not start charging us in college now (there are legal difficulties, as legally we have a contract with the college for the length of our degree), but to start charging YOU secondary school students. Even tho I prob won't have to pay, this is blatantly unfair and I promise I'm doing everything in college now to reverse this decision (if it is made official) - that included nearly get arrested by occupying the UCC Presidents office

SligoBrewer

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

Lads, ye in Leaving Cert now have to fight this thing. It is complete bullsiht to say that marching doesn't work - look at what marching did for the medical card issue

good to hear

thebigcheese22 wrote: »

Apparently the idea is to not start charging us in college now (there are legal difficulties, as legally we have a contract with the college for the length of our degree), but to start charging YOU secondary school students. Even tho I prob won't have to pay, this is blatantly unfair and I promise I'm doing everything in college now to reverse this decision (if it is made official) - that included nearly get arrested by occupying the UCC Presidents office

I personally believe there is no legal difficulty, it's just to shut up the protests. They don't believe that 'the spoiled kids' of today could be bothered protesting. ****ing ****heads.

El Che

amacachi wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance, but what are these tax relief schemes, and who's entitled to them?

Section 23 - Home Owners and Property Speculators.
Section 481 - For Investors in film industry
Section 50 - For Student accommodation but open to abuse

These are just three schemes which are open to abuse. Tax relief for Private hospitals, private schools, fee paying colleges, etc. the list goes on and I'm not bothered to look up the Sections.

amacachi wrote:

*Do you genuinely believe that the money saved in those subsidies would make up the difference if all those kids had to go to other schools? The parents pay into those schools too, without that money there is less money as a whole in the education system.

Public students don't benefit from their money. Private schools should be able to support themselves through their fees, if not then like any other business, they should fail. Its called "the free market".

amacachi wrote:

*Heh, so there's no fiscal logic for your wish to put the tax on cigarettes up, just your own hatred of the habit?

No, I've explained the financial savings of such a move with figures from finance proposals from various opposition parties including Labour, Sinn Fein, and Fine Gael.

Granted you raised a good point about the drop in demand, its not something I had thought about so I wonder if they gave thought to it?

amacachi wrote:

*I completely agree that there should be more money put into the frontline, but think of the strikes. There are a lot of people in these "mickey mouse" jobs. They go on strike and see what happens to the frontline.

Well its never going to be perfect, as everyone is solely interested in their own careers. But I can name dozens of civil and public servants who have cushy administration jobs and aren't qualified for them, how they got there, I don't know. But what I do know is this logic of "the more the merrier" has to go as it simply isn't sustainable to keep people on in the interests of not hurting feelings or looking bad.

There's no easy way around things, but there is a DIFFERENT way of doing things to ensure that the majority, who didn't cause this mess, aren't affected.

amacachi wrote:

Have to admit, I don't know where you live, but it more certainly isn't the case in my town. Out of over a hundred people in the queue over the 5/6 months I've been in to sign on I've seen 2 black people and 4 obviously Eastern European people. And I'd rather see them, after working their balls off, mostly for less than the lads on the site they were working with, getting some support than the 10% of people in the queue who left school as soon as they could sign on (I was in school with them) and the lads in their 40s who turn up to sign on ****faced and never worked a day in their lives.

According to the Irish Examiner, 1 in 5 people claiming the dole is a foreign national. Generally I don't have a problem with foreign nationals who have worked and made the required PRSI contributions, however, some people that there's fraud going on but perhaps its just the begrugders.

I agree completely with your assessment, I know many home grown spongers who are signing on and even defrauding the system from the cradle to the grave in some cases. I've no problem with restrictions being placed on these people as well as they are a more serious threat than any amount of foreign nationals.

Anyway, we'll probably just have to agree to disagree.