College fees are possibly in.

Dudess

Dudess wrote: »

I work in one.

And what would more fee's mean to you in regards giving people a better education?

Although I feel that's almost beside the point. I think that the fee's will merely allow the government to spend less on education and we'll be in the same boat as we are now only with less people being able to afford it.

Dudess

Teaching staff, support staff. If you only knew the cutbacks in this regard. And it's not because it's in my interests - my contract isn't being renewed because of these cutbacks and I'm glad tbh. The stress is mindblowing.

SligoBrewer

Dudess wrote: »

Teaching staff, support staff. If you only knew the cutbacks in this regard. And it's not because it's in my interests - my contract isn't being renewed because of these cutbacks and I'm glad tbh. The stress is mindblowing.

Maybe I pay enough bloody tax for the Gov't to provide me with a decent education instead of them bailing out banks that have bankrupted the country. Hmm?

jefreywithonef

College fees are a good idea. The various colleges need investment and it's been proven that students work much harder when they have had to pay fees to get into college. However, it'd only be fair that the fees be compulsory for families that can afford them. O'Keefe previously said something about the 33,000 millionaires in this country so hopefully it's just them "affected".

Dudess

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Maybe I pay enough bloody tax for the Gov't to provide me with a decent education instead of them bailing out banks that have bankrupted the country. Hmm?

Sadly, no. And do you really pay tax?

QueenOfLeon

Monzo wrote: »

College fees are a good idea. The various colleges need investment and it's been proven that students work much harder when they have had to pay fees to get into college.

Yes, the colleges need investment, and the government should be investing in them ahead of other areas that they seem to spend a lot of money on...ministers flights, anyone?
It shouldnt be down to students and their families to fund the unis, especially with the economy the way it is. Too many families are struggling to make ends meet.
Students doing the leaving this year, who cannot afford to go to college, will end up joining the dole queue next September due to the lack of jobs. This will only result in the Government paying out more social welfare, and in a few years time, the country will be left with a small qualified workforce, and a massive amount of people relying on social welfare.

As for students working harder if they're paying for it, yes, i agree that I would put more thought into my CAO choices, and would definately work harder in college, if my parents were forking out thousands for me to go to college. But what about those who would have worked hard anyway, but now will not get that opportunity?

jefreywithonef

Anne-Marie!! wrote: »

Yes, the colleges need investment, and the government should be investing in them ahead of other areas that they seem to spend a lot of money on...ministers flights, anyone?
It shouldnt be down to students and their families to fund the unis, especially with the economy the way it is. Too many families are struggling to make ends meet.
Students doing the leaving this year, who cannot afford to go to college, will end up joining the dole queue next September due to the lack of jobs. This will only result in the Government paying out more social welfare, and in a few years time, the country will be left with a small qualified workforce, and a massive amount of people relying on social welfare.

As for students working harder if they're paying for it, yes, i agree that I would put more thought into my CAO choices, and would definately work harder in college, if my parents were forking out thousands for me to go to college. But what about those who would have worked hard anyway, but now will not get that opportunity?

Read my third sentence - I said only those that CAN afford fees without any difficulty whatsoever (i.e. millionaires) should be in line to pay fees. I agree with everything else you say, especially that families are already struggling to cope financially without the added hindrance of having to fork out so many thousand for fees in such a short time. As such, only those with high incomes should be charged. Unfortunately, I think basically everyone will have to pay something.

QueenOfLeon

Monzo wrote: »

Read my third sentence - I said only those that CAN afford fees without any difficulty whatsoever (i.e. millionaires) should be in line to pay fees. . . . As such, only those with high incomes should be charged. Unfortunately, I think basically everyone will have to pay something.

Yup, i definately agree with you in that aspect. Dont worry, i wasnt attacking your post im just angry with the whole situation :mad::mad:

Jammyc

timmywex wrote: »

I wish o'keeffe would take his head out of his arse and just announce whats happening, so as to end the scaremongering and the speculation in the meida!

Fee's are coming back, no doubt, just hurry up and tell us who has to pay and how

Hear hear.

nobodythere

Dudess wrote: »

I work in one.

Must be under some pressure with a postcount like that....

Dudess

LOL... touché.

Not MY job but the jobs of my colleagues - they are doing at least two people's work each and it's not the kind of work they can pass on to others. Plus, while my job can be very quiet, it gets insanely busy from time to time because a glut of stuff comes together rather than being spread evenly - that's just the nature of it.

I don't understand the hostility to my assertion that fees are needed - it's just a cold, hard fact unfortunately, seeing as third level institutions are haemorrhaging money. Obviously I wouldn't agree with the same amount being paid across the board - I think fees need to be extremely staggered, with those from low income backgrounds being expected to pay nothing or next to nothing.
But I also disagree with every tax-payer paying for third level - I don't have children so why should my taxes go towards someone else's kids? Ditto if I have children and they decide to do apprenticeships/go to PLC colleges (better off really unless they do third-level courses that are actually any use when it comes to securing employment). And also, look at all the subjects on offer that don't actually benefit the economy. Why should a tax-payer foot the bill for someone doing, for example, a BA and MA in sociology?
There are people who take advantage of free third level also - simply viewing it as three or four years of going on the piss, not bothering to turn up to lectures, handing in half-baked assignments etc. So the tax-payer should fund that crap?
I also found at college that the above was far more the preserve of people from middle-class backgrounds. Those from low income backgrounds were much more conscientious and worked really hard.

People always bang on about education being a right - well yes, primary and secondary. But third level? Not really. Much of it is down to choice. Calling it a "right", putting it on a par with free/low-cost healthcare, freedom of speech, equality etc, implies the alternative would be unacceptable. Yet many people who are eligible for third level don't avail of it and get on just fine.

Oh and... LOL at some rich people moaning about their children being discriminated against. No probs sending the kids to exorbitantly priced private schools though, eh...?

Piste

Dudess wrote: »

Oh and... LOL at some rich people moaning about their children being discriminated against. No probs sending the kids to exorbitantly priced private schools though, eh...?

But sending kids to private schools isn't discrimination so no, there's nothing wrong with it!


Say if College X gets Y amount of money from the government a year and they're now going to get Z amount of money a year from fees, will they now get Y+Z money, or just Z money or Z+(Y-A) money?

Fad

Piste wrote: »

But sending kids to private schools isn't discrimination so no, there's nothing wrong with it!


Say if College X gets Y amount of money from the government a year and they're now going to get Z amount of money a year from fees, will they now get Y+Z money, or just Z money or Z+(Y-A) money?

Id say Z+(Y-A).

There's gonna be a cur in the government funding and then we foot the bill (That's what I imagine will happen).

PurpleFistMixer

Well when they first suggested fees the idea was to supplement the colleges, afaik. ("To create world-class universities" I believe came up as an argument.)
However now it's changed to "We can't afford it", so I think if fees were to come in, it'd be accompanied by a cut in government spending on 3rd level, and overall little difference in the standard of the university.

Dudess

Piste wrote: »

But sending kids to private schools isn't discrimination so no, there's nothing wrong with it!

Sending kids to grind schools actually causes a form of discrimination.

GA361

Dudess wrote: »

Sending kids to grind schools actually causes a form of discrimination.

+1
It must be noted that those who go to grind schools get an unfair footing with regard to progressing their education to third level.I mean many of the teachers in IOE write the flippin' LC books!
If certain students' parents can afford to pay Grind school fees they certainly should be able/be made to pay College Fees!

themont85

GA361 wrote: »

+1
It must be noted that those who go to grind schools get an unfair footing with regard to progressing their education to third level.I mean many of the teachers in IOE write the flippin' LC books!
If certain students' parents can afford to pay Grind school fees they certainly should be able/be made to pay College Fees!

Why? Their parents are already paying more taxes in all likelyhood. They don't cost the State money for their years in the grind schools, effectively they already subsidise the state schools. They could go to private colleges,they generally don't, their choice as it is to stay in state schools or not. They are entitled to free 3rd level, their parents pay taxes(and more of them), they will eventually pay more taxes because of their degrees.

HQvhs

themont85 wrote: »

Why? Their parents are already paying more taxes in all likelyhood. They don't cost the State money for their years in the grind schools, effectively they already subsidise the state schools. They could go to private colleges,they generally don't, their choice as it is to stay in state schools or not. They are entitled to free 3rd level, their parents pay taxes(and more of them), they will eventually pay more taxes because of their degrees.

Paying 'more' tax does not entitle you to 'more' of a state service. By that logic a doctor has more right to drive on the roads than a person on the minimum wage. You pay tax by your ability to pay. Third level education is not an entitlement just because your parents pay more taxes than someone elses.

If you want third level education then you should pay for at least a portion of it. Especially since you're only being asked to pay after you finish your degree and earn above a certain income. Why should everyone else pay the entire cost of your degree if it allows you to get a better job that gives you a higher income? Most countries ask you to pay for at least some of the cost of your third level, why should Ireland be any different?

PurpleFistMixer

Remember: this thread is for discussing college fees, not grind schools. If that debate wants to continue I can split it into a new thread, otherwise stay on topic. : p

Also: official now: registration fee for TCD will be 1500 euro next year.

themont85

HQvhs wrote: »

Paying 'more' tax does not entitle you to 'more' of a state service. By that logic a doctor has more right to drive on the roads than a person on the minimum wage. You pay tax by your ability to pay. Third level education is not an entitlement just because your parents pay more taxes than someone elses.

If you want third level education then you should pay for at least a portion of it. Especially since you're only being asked to pay after you finish your degree and earn above a certain income. Why should everyone else pay the entire cost of your degree if it allows you to get a better job that gives you a higher income? Most countries ask you to pay for at least some of the cost of your third level, why should Ireland be any different?

Yes they are entitled to 'free' 3rd level education, that is the prevailing situation. My point is that people who attend grind schools parents already pay more tax and don't take up their right to a free second level education, thus saving the state money for lower incomes. Ultimately people with college degress it has been found pay more tax then people without one, of course this isnt an exact science, me personally i favour a small graduate tax in addition to the higher tax band to fund 3rd level better, but what i hate is people saying that kids in grind schools should have to pay for 3rd level. They could choose a private college but they don't, its their choice, currently they are rightfully entitled to as 'free' an education as the next person.

delta_bravo

themont85 wrote: »

Yes they are entitled to 'free' 3rd level education, that is the prevailing situation. My point is that people who attend grind schools parents already pay more tax and don't take up their right to a free second level education, thus saving the state money for lower incomes.

I agree with you on the grad tax but do note, the state still pays teachers wages in private schools

themont85

delta_bravo wrote: »

I agree with you on the grad tax but do note, the state still pays teachers wages in private schools

Not in grind schools.

SligoBrewer

Dudess wrote: »

Sadly, no. And do you really pay tax?

Yes, VAT on everything I buy, and when I work, it's deducted from my pay. Same as you.;)

xOxSinéadxOx

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Well when they first suggested fees the idea was to supplement the colleges, afaik. ("To create world-class universities" I believe came up as an argument.)
However now it's changed to "We can't afford it", so I think if fees were to come in, it'd be accompanied by a cut in government spending on 3rd level, and overall little difference in the standard of the university.

that is so true. definitely won't mean more funding for the colleges

room18

I think its a disgrace the way they are tackling education. Im past college and all that, but im sure there are many families across the country who cannot afford to send their children to college, And that they might no fit into the grant section. Its sad.

Dudess

But where is the money to come from so? People are being taxed to their eyeballs yet that won't even cover the costs of third level education - by a long shot. It's purely a measure to keep this country afloat.

It's the only way, but with rigorous means testing.

Piste

Hopefully it'll all be a graduate tax, but that means the government wont see any money coming in for four or five years.

MissHoneyBun

Speaks volumes that the government is penalising the young people of the country to rectify the many mistakes of so-called adults.

Des23

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Yes, VAT on everything I buy, and when I work, it's deducted from my pay. Same as you.;)

What tax is taken off you that you can't get back?
Both of the official jobs I had (i.e. with payslips etc.) only took emergency tax which I got back.

GlowStickXo

All fee's will do is force young people out of Ireland,Taking away from educating the future of Ireland which will result in our economy being crippled for generations to come.So well done to the goverment who are just trying to make things work 'now' not looking to the bigger, picture Irelands future. Why should I be deprived of education, when older family and friends were able to without fee's?

I was already thinking of appling to England for college and If the fee's are brought in then that's defiantley where I'll be headed. Percentage of colleges in England fees don't have to be paid by all EU citizens under the age of 19.

So take a look at your options; stay in a country that are all about making people happy now, resulting in the next generation being un-educated crippling our already utter excuse for an economy, or get out while you can. Get the education you deserve.