BSG 2003 S4E20/21 'Daybreak Part 2/Part 3' ***Spoilers***

Derek Coleman

All you people who wrote multi-paragraphed posts to complain about BSG are annoying me. :mad: I didn't even read them cause whats the point. Why do you watch tv? Seriously, why do you watch tv?

Why are you pointing out the bits you don't like? There's enough problems in the world in our real lives with this recession! Every day people complaining on tv and the radio.

I watch tv to be entertained. I was thoroughly entertained.

Pack of Moan bags! :mad:

BlitzKrieg

I didn't even read them cause whats the point.

Its a bit easy to point out that because you didnt read them you assumed that

Why are you pointing out the bits you don't like?

Most of the multi paragraphed posts dont pick out just the bits they dont like and moan.

I watch tv to be entertained. I was thoroughly entertained.

I discuss tv to be entertained, and I find it entertaining when someone discussess it with me.

Derek Coleman

Well done, you can quote stuff and then talk rubbish and change what I meant. Continue to moan. Fill up the thread with more moaning. Go on.

....... now you Quote something else and the cycle continues. Sad.:o

Derek Coleman

Derek Coleman wrote: »

All you people who wrote multi-paragraphed posts to complain about BSG are annoying me. :mad:

I have to quote myself to get you to understand. Read that sentence again.

I was talking about the multi paragrahed posts who complained! Not all multi paragraphed posts you ninkompoop.

I'll accept your apology.

Edit : And I've actually read your post and you weren't complaining so what are you on about. ha. You gave an opinion and thats grand. Thats not complaining...... well kinda. ha.

robby^5

Yeah because we should all just reply to threads with short posts about how much we love battlestar and how awesome it is, how it is perfect in every way and how much we all love it.

That will make for some exciting discussion.

telemachus

Terribly sorry to upset your delicate sensibilities but that's simply how I enjoy watching and thinking about films/television/literature that I particularily like. I sat all the way through it and thoroughly enjoyed it but as with any art I enjoy I then spent the next few days picking it apart in my head, trying to understand why it was written the way it was and work out what the aim of the thing was and how well the writing and production achieved that.

I don't have a problem in the slightest with you wandering around bellowing TEN OUT OF TEN SO AWESOME IT MADE MY EYES BLEED but don't think to tell my how I can and can't enjoy the series, like many internet fans you're making the mistake of overly associating yourself with the object of your affections and taking any insult to it as a slight on yourself. I'm sure Ron Moore will live through my scathing criticism, just.

MisterAnarchy

Derek Coleman wrote: »

All you people who wrote multi-paragraphed posts to complain about BSG are annoying me. :mad: I didn't even read them cause whats the point. Why do you watch tv? Seriously, why do you watch tv?

We have been discussing and singing this show's praises for the last 5 years .
You are a recent visitor to these forums so you shouldnt be mouthing off.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion especially if they can back it up.
I think I speak for most people here when I say Battlestar Galactica will leave a huge hole in our viewing habits.
It is one of the best shows of all time and will be sorely missed.

noodler

Derek Coleman wrote: »

All you people who wrote multi-paragraphed posts to complain about BSG are annoying me. :mad: I didn't even read them cause whats the point. Why do you watch tv? Seriously, why do you watch tv?

Why are you pointing out the bits you don't like? There's enough problems in the world in our real lives with this fukkin recession! Every day people complaining on tv and the radio.

I watch tv to be entertained. I was thoroughly entertained.

Pack of Moan bags! :mad:

Put your head in the sand then!

I think you were born in the wrong time/place, would have been better off in Soviet Russia.

Stark

For goodness sake. I could easily reply to "if you don't like it, don't watch it" with "if you don't like it, don't read it". People enjoy shows in different ways. A show's biggest fans can be its most vocal critics. Be glad that the show does promote strong discussion and we actually have a forum of threads to read.

Leprachaun

Derek Coleman,

I've heard of fanboys but this is ridiculous. You're saying we shouldn't even criticise the show at all? It wasn't perfect you know. Entertaining and better than most of the drivel on tv,for sure,but perfect,no.

The point of these episode threads is to criticise,rate and discuss the episodes they revolve around,not mindlessly sing praises about how RDM is a genious and how BSG was flawless.

Stark

I would have liked to have found out what happened as a consequence of events in "The Farm". In particular, what happened to Starbuck's ovaries and what was the fate of the survivors left on the Twelve colonies. Maybe there's still time to find out in "The Plan".

degrassinoel

Leprachaun wrote: »

Derek Coleman,

I've heard of fanboys but this is ridiculous. You're saying we shouldn't even criticise the show at all? It wasn't perfect you know. Entertaining and better than most of the drivel on tv,for sure,but perfect,no.

The point of these episode threads is to criticise,rate and discuss the episodes they revolve around,not mindlessly sing praises about how RDM is a genious and how BSG was flawless.

i can see DC's point though, there are some posts on these forums especially over the last week or so where people have been riling up the regulars with bizarre posts about getting laid and being nerds lol

But anyway, why use a forum at all if you're not going to read the posts, and remember.. opinions are like ars3holes, everyone has one.

steve 0

I can't accept that the answer to everything is that wizards God did it.
Things began to look that way with the partial explanations in No Exit and it was all downhill from there. I've no issue with a second Earth, that is the one we inhabit, or if there was a happy or sad ending.
What I do have a problem with is a finale that, despite having had more notice then most shows, appeared as rushed as a show with 6 weeks notice and they couldn't fit it all in. The fact that they had all this time to answer everything but decided to leave plot holes so obvious that a fan of Smallville could point them out is bizarre. This series will always be remembered for the thought provoking social commentary that made it such a success but its unforunate they couldn't be bothered to address numerous issues that were integral to the story. No matter what anybody says plot is important, any quality show works with characters AND plot.

tvnutz

Biggins wrote: »

I now have the pleasure of seeing so far in my life two great complete series.
One was "The West Wing" and now "BSG" - overall, it don't get any better than that.
So far there is nothing on at the moment I can even say comes close to either or both of them.

BSG I will miss you.
Well done to all involved in making the series.

You should really watch the Wire then. The greatest complete series.

Slutmonkey57b

I honestly cannot believe that's what they did to end it. Of all the things I thought they might do, I never thought they'd take the lazy, coward's way out, but they did. The whole last, long, drawn out, prattling hour on earth was an absolute betrayal of what made the series' writing great. From the first moments of the series, the strength of the writing was in the way they simply presented situations, provoked thought, showed consequence and fallout without prejudice, bias, or sentimentalism. The truly harsh nature of humanity, and their lives, aspirations, losses, regrets and all the facets were simply put out, and left for examination, bare, unjudged.

Had they ended with the nuking and the jump, or before that, they would have served their purpose. The opera house reveal was wonderful. The uncertainty of their course, and of the outcome of the attack, were pitched well. Even had they taken the ending they chose, and actually explored the effects of the homecoming on the characters, they could have furnished a useful end.

Instead we got a lot of preaching, overdone, childlike exposition and the conclusion was just awful. Plain awful. The RDM "cameo" shot was utterly cringeworthy. An ending that took all the failures of the previous season (ignoring hugely important stories, repetetive exposition of well-trodden points, throwing characters in and out of situations with no follow up, important events happening off-screen for no good reason, poor CGI work) and didn't make the most of what went right (the element of surprise, uncertainty about how far they would go, the honesty of the character's reactions to events).

The best example of how wrong this episode went is the Caprica flashbacks. For the most part, these were wholly useless in terms of character insight, and weren't even tied together with anything we see the protagonists dealing with in the "now". Balthar and Six got the best of these - the flashbacks gave interesting and useful information, let us see the characters as they'd been and were, and how things had gone for them. The actors used them and they worked. Lee and Kara's was less important, but done *reasonably* well (poor by battlestar standards) and linked to something that was going on in the now. The others were terrible. Woeful. And more importantly, not used. They were just filler. Nothing. Dross.

I get the feeling a lot was cut out here, and hopefully what was cut out is a lot better. I know I never want to see that last episode ever again.

Slutmonkey57b

Stark wrote: »

I would have liked to have found out what happened as a consequence of events in "The Farm". In particular, what happened to Starbuck's ovaries and what was the fate of the survivors left on the Twelve colonies. Maybe there's still time to find out in "The Plan".

Great point. RDM's obsession with God really shows how much they failed to follow up on here. The god storylines are important, but they shouldn't have been allowed to crowd out the rest of the show to the degree they did.

MisterAnarchy

It seems alot of people are unhappy with the religious aspects of the finale.
I wonder if these people are atheists and just have an issue with religion in general and are using it as a stick to beat the episode ?
I'm an agnostic myself but I have no issues with the idea of a higher being/God orchestrating events.

An ending that took all the failures of the previous season (ignoring hugely important stories, repetetive exposition of well-trodden points, throwing characters in and out of situations with no follow up, important events happening off-screen for no good reason, poor CGI work) and didn't make the most of what went right (the element of surprise, uncertainty about how far they would go, the honesty of the character's reactions to events).

I'd agree with alot of that ,the fourth season was disappointing overall.
I think alot of this has to do with the Writers strike in the US.
I honestly think everyone involved on the show saw it dead and buried after the episode they found a scorched Earth.
They never expected to be back and Eick was already struggling with Bionic Woman and Moore had those other 2 shows he was working on so even if BSG had not been brought back they were still busy and working regardless.
So it could be viewed that with Moore and Eick occupied with other stuff they let the writers who had worked on the show for so long a free hand (hardly by choice) and a chance to shine.
In which case should we really complain that season 4.5 was lacking until the finale.
I'm sure everyone has done the best they could but under different circumstances and maybe a boost in the budget from SciFi we might have actually got the balls to the wall final 10 we all clearly feel we deserved.

Sad Professor

In the real world, people often believe in God as a way to fill in the gaps, the stuff that doesn't make sense in their lives. However, "God did it" should never be used as an explanation in fiction, not without making that higher power into a full blown character with motivation and reason. Or at least leaving it ambiguous enough so that the audience can decide for themselves whether there really was a divine influence at play.

I have no problem with the reveal that there was a higher power orchestrating events in the series. However, what I don't like is how poorly defined that higher power was. It's the laziest type of writing imaginable.

What happened to Kara? God did it!
The Opera House? God did it!
The music? God did it!
Racetrack's dead arm setting off the nukes? God did it!
Who is this "God"? What's his motivation? I dunno!

Moore resorted to Deus Ex Machina for everything, every unresolved plot, every plot hole — God did it all.

How does a good writer like Moore come to this thinking? Basically he fell into that Stephen King-break-the-fourth-wall crap of thinking of himself the storyteller as God. Writers are sometimes prone to this. Stuff happens because they want it to happen and then all of sudden it's the end and they don't how to resolve everything. So they come up with "God did it!" and "God wanted everything to happen this way" with no further explanation.

It is therefore very fitting that Moore has such an overt cameo during the epilogue when God is being discussed. He was only talking about breaking the fourth wall on a recent podcast. Ellen had a speech about it that got cut from No Exit. I guess it was on his mind as he approached the finale.

BlitzKrieg

fourth season was disappointing overall.
I think alot of this has to do with the Writers strike in the US.
I honestly think everyone involved on the show saw it dead and buried after the episode they found a scorched Earth.

I think the show had reached its predesscors conclusion at the point they arrived at earth and when they opted to go with a scorched earth they were bring very brave, they took the expected ending from a series that was essentialy a remake of a cheesy 80's series and completely decimated the expected ending something that demanded that if they were going to continue on that they had to end somewhere equally brave if not more so, and taking the earth idea and rehashing it as *another earth* was not what was needed to be done.


On the whole God issue, I'm agnostic myself, I dislike plot elements such as angels appearing before people etc being used because one of the main reasons for my agnosticism is my opinion of the bible itself and of the moral fables that make up over half of its content. I can accept such plot elements if the narrative is structured for them where an angel popping up and delivering a message doesnt jar with a narrative that takes itself to be a realistic tone. Which I think most people can agree Galactica did, it constantly skated the lines between religous people being nuts or not nuts and always took an agnostic solution of being able to provide a scientific and religous explanation to most of its issues up until now. When they confirmed head baltar and six as real life sperate entities and all the religous elements started to fit in as a sort of system of complex coincidences I can accept that, its like I said earlier a God of coincidence makes sense if there is a being that can see the beginning and the end and wishes to save the human race but also preserve free will. Head angels touch a fine line of acceptance because of being unseen by anyone else, the person who sees them is not going to announce they see angels (I know baltar did) without at least a healthy number of people (like they did in galactica) thinking he is just gone mad. So a god of coincidence still works, head angels just become a sort of extension of conciouse.

You can guess where I draw the line with BSG's touch of religous narrative. Karra Thrace, THere is something about Resurrection that just gets at me in a wrong way, its an untidy and difficult manner for a celestial being to act and it didnt fit the tone of BSG if its never explained, you can still lay the acts at the feet of God, but let him use the tools he has so far used throughout the series, a series of coincidences or short term goals and intentions linking up in a larger picture. I like having religion in my fiction, but I like it when its kept annoymous, I like it when its a series of unexplainable events with no real system or form until the very end where if you sit back and look at it as a whole you can go *Yes if I was someone who could see here from when this all started, thats what I would have done too.* I dont like it when a God stands up to take credit for it all with a lightning bolt or an angel with a sword of fire, it takes free will out of the narrative.

And yes despite earlier discussion in this thread of BSG distancing itself from any specific religion with god not liking being called god, the christian one does tend to hold the monopoly on resurrection so Karra Thrace is a big high five out to christianity.

EDIT: DAMNIT! Sad Professor got there before me and summed it up better then me.

TerrorFirmer

Personally thought it was a great episode. Loved the old skool Cylons, the quality of the action in this episode was incredible. Of course, not that one would expect any different from a show finale....but I felt it ticked all of the right boxes. I can't say I have much of an issue with the ending itself - what with the amount of shows getting canceled all over the place, I'm damn glad we even got the luxury of a tied up ending to all that's been going on and that aside, I felt it was a decent one. Lots of questions still left unanswered in general however...Even the ending with the robots - I liked it and found it quite rather creepy in the context of the entire show.

Kind of sad now that it's over. I've never really felt like that about any TV show before. Very eagerly looking foward to the movie later this year - hopefully it'll answer a lot of the minor questions left unanswered by the show from the Cylons perspective (not hitherto necessarily ignored or glossed over, just relegated to the imagination because of the direction of the show....like what happened back on the 12 colonies post-holocaust and so on)

theram

I couldnt have been more disappointed by anything in my life.

Half suspected they didnt know what they were doing, but this ep confirmed that.

I'll remember the good days, not the ending.

stakey

As an atheist I had no issue with the ending of BSG, nor any issues with the 'religous overtones' of the latter half of the show.

Battlestar has been since the onset of the show a sci fi space opera with a fair amount of spiritualism/religion mixed in.

From the onset of the show one of the main characters throughout Season 1, Head Six discussed 'gods' plan with Baltar. The religion of the colonies had a huge impact on fleet political decisions in the first and second season, one could almost argue that the first series was amongst the most religous of the show.

Considering that, I think it's a bit much to take great offence to the religous overtones of the end of the series. I think the writers did a great job closing out the show. There are plotholes, but aren't there always? But the plotholes don't actually take away from the show, overall it still stands as a great piece, if not one of the greatest of television history.

As an atheist the religous bits of the show mirrored what I believe of religion or 'gods' and 'angels' today. These concepts are used by humans to quantify intangible concepts like the universe and our own existance.

The 'angels' of Head Six and Head Baltar were I feel more than likely to be a physical/mental manifestation of a higher evolved being. What were they? To me, they were possibly some older civilisation that had managed to get past the singularity and took an interest in humanity who seemed to fumble at the singularity every time. Or perhaps a higher evolved version of cylons from some other civilisation that took interest in humanities issues with the singularity. To lowly humans, yep, they'd come across as 'gods' or 'angels'. But I don't believe this to be a nod to christianity or anything but more a statement on how humans quantify there existance in the grand scheme of things.

Put it this way, whilst the christian bible is full of great stories of angels destroying entire civilisations. I don't see any stories of angels acting as succubi or discussing the mathematical probability of their leaders plans. And it was in that line in the closing moments of the show that made me think these are just either really really advanced aliens or really really really advanced cylons; they discussed humanities mathematical probability to survive! They aren't supreme, godly beings that set the mathematical possibilities, they had to work within it.

Rented Mule

So basically this entire series let us know that 'there is no free will' and 'everything has been predetermined'.

Stealing the line from Peter Pan (again)...

This has happened before and it will happen again.

Goodshape

Heh. Can't help but agree with what Sad Professor and others are saying above.

"Stuff happens because they want it to happen and then all of sudden it's the end and they don't how to resolve everything."

Things definitely felt like that - although I think it's been apparently obvious since the 3rd season. It certainly didn't come as a shock to me in the final that they couldn't / didn't wrap up all those crazy plot-lines. Season 3 in particular will always stand out to me as being overly long and introducing far too much crazy bull**** just to make up the episode numbers.

But the journey I enjoyed and I do feel satisfied by the final. Fantastic spectacle and a fitting conclusion to most things - I'd find it hard to fault this episode for mistakes made in previous ones but, having calmed down and read other peoples more level-headed thoughts on it all, it is a shame they had to resort to the "god did it all" get-out. Though I honestly don't think it'll tarnish my future appreciation of what an excellent show this was.

telemachus

Just been working my way through the final podcast bit by bit when I have the time, there's actually a very interesting bit where Moore goes into detail about the way the second part of the season was wrriten out, and how during the writers strike when he had time to think and drasticly changed it.

It actually explains an awful lot, before it I kept thinking about how the second last and last two part episode felt so self contained and almost rushed and in his alternate version everything from the mutiny leads to the finale. Apparently mid Gaeta/Zarack mutiny Cavills base stars turn up (I kept waiting for this to happen post barren Earth discovery ) and together they manage to fend them off with a great deal of losses, afterwards Zarack splits from the fleet with a number of followers/ships to set off in a different direction. Ellen in a fit of pique over Tigh and Six's relationship and child grabs Hera and take her to Cavill turning on the humans, which leads into the whole attack, and the finale was largely focused on Tigh trying to convince Ellen to rejoin him.

Nuttzz

I can see the reason for Cavil ordering the ceasefire, resurrection was they key to eternal life, why wouldnt he pay the ceasefire card to attain that goal?

Great to see the old style centurions, just wished that one replied "by your command" when the ceasefire was ordered

4/5

Johnny Storm

Upon even more mature reflection I have to admit that I am a little bit dissatified with the way Tigh ended up. He was one of the best BSG characters and I felt he could have done with a more positive resolution.

homerun_homer

I just got watching it last night and though it was well played I just have to say I’ m disappointed. Mainly because Ron Moore didn’t have an end game all along and the things he introduced couldn’t all be tied up sensibly, so much so that too much angels and God elements had to be used to just wash our problems away. I know Lost could suffer the same problem but when they eventually get around to answering a mystery it all ties in and it manages to work on many levels.
The Opera House – going from Season 1 til now it seems pointless that it was just a case of Baltar and 6 picking up Hera when it alluded that they intended to steal her in the dream. Any one of them (Roslin, Sharon) could have taken Hera but what did it matter because Cavil appeared and held her hostage – que redundant dream. Sure, argue away that it symbolises the whole ‘all this has happened before’ lark.
the flashbacksproved pointless for me, filler much like the last 2 seasons have been. Baltar and 6 was the most interesting because it made you feel for him when he tells 6 that he knows how to farm. He's now a proper human.
I wish they played Cali/Tyrol relationship better – less fighting all season and more love so that when she died you would really feel bad for him and want him to get revenge. The whole time they were meeting as the final 4 and final 5 and I never once thought “I just want him to find out right now and see what he does” because it just seemed to be put to the side. They needed this tension because so much of this series needed it. When he did realise and kill Tory it was brilliant though.
The rescue of Hera was very rushed, and the suicide of Cavil, though understandable was very South Park as someone mentioned before. A better showdown with more scene stealing from Cavil would have been sweet.
Too many people wanted to become hermits – pity.
I thought Adama would die with Roslin and the Galactica. For me the idea and image of him staying with her on her deathbed while sailing off to the sun on the Galactica would have been far more heartbreaking. Now I just wonder why he would spend the rest of his life alone when he still has a son who he loves and friends. I mean Roslin was great and all but... I dunno what goes through the mind of a potential hermit though. Her death scene was sad and all (how couldn’t it be) but it wasn’t as sad a scene as I had been expecting. After all this wait and build up I just thought at least have her die in his arms, not as he drives a raptor.

I’m sad it’s all over but from mid Season 3 the show lost its spark with too many stand alone episodes and Season 4 got way too religious and going nowhere fast when so much needed doing and answering. Given the lack of strict deadlines to run each season and mid season breaks, the writers had time to really hash this out into something more worthwhile. We all waited with baited breath for this final season and it only contained very few revelations, keeping them all for one final burst, yet it didn’t feel like it. We all have to believe what we want about Kara Thrace instead of finding out some cool logical conclusion.
Oh and as for her being the "Harbinger of Death"...?? This was just something to keep us hooked and then it went nowhere, buried, forgotten about. She brought them to Earth, twice, as an 'Angel'!!!! **** you Ron Moore.
Was the Hera bones found in the magazine not still that of a child. That really annoyed me to think about - and Ron Moore's awkward looking cameo.
Oh well, cheers to the Galactica – it was a good ride while it lasted, even when it became a chore to watch.

MisterAnarchy

homerun_homer wrote: »

Was the Hera bones found in the magazine not still that of a child.

They were the bones of "a young woman" .
Hera must have been breeding like a rabbit and she died young.

Rented Mule

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

They were the bones of "a young woman" .
Hera must have been breeding like a rabbit and she died young.

'Breeding with whom?' is the question