BSG 2003 S4E20/21 'Daybreak Part 2/Part 3' ***Spoilers***

gazzer

After Roslin died where did Bill put the raptor? All the other ships had already gone with Anders towards the sun?

I loved the last ep. I didnt think that so much would be wrapped up and I was terrified that there would be a 'Sopranos' type end. The only bit that I was a bit dubious at was the fact that 38,000 people decided not to bring any technology with them when settling on earth. Surely at least one of them would have snuck something away with them

Stark

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

What I want to know now is why Angel Baltar said to Angel Six at the end "you know he doesn't like to be called that" when she refererd to "God". It may be a small throw-away line, but it just seemed an odd one to include in the last few lines of the show if it did have some meaning.

Perhaps the "God" we worship is different to their God and so he/she doesn't like to be referred to as "God" in the future.

telemachus

Yeah the whole "we've all decided to dump every bit of technology and spread ourselves accross the globe in small groups" in the space of about five minutes was a bit of a push , but I get the feeling Moore had already settled on his "mitochondrial eve" idea and he couldn't really have them setting up a nice big thriving city flogging combine harvesters to the natives 150,000 years back.

You would have thought having been hunted back and forth accross the universe with the threat of extinction present every minute and many of them trapped in near slave labour they would have wanted to settle together and finally be able to enjoy normal human interaction.

stevenmu

On the other hand, being cramped up in run-down spaceships for a few years, being chased across the galaxy, after billions of your people were wiped out, by machines you created, might just make you want to get out and appreciate nature a little bit

telemachus

It's a fair enough point but there are only 30 odd thousand of them all told, the size of a very modest town and even if they landed on a small island like Britain or Ireland let alone large continents they'd have all the countryside and nature they could want for a very long time, even if they freneticly bred like rabbits.

Scráib

I have to say that the thing that I though was the best about the whole final episode was Galactica herself. Because in the end, with Adama being the last to leave her I got this impression of the old ship surviving *just* long enough to bring humanity to their new home safely and then cruising into the sun with the original BSG music playing away.

As in Firefly, Galactica herself was made to be as much of a character as the cast which I think is some pretty damn good storytelling. T'was actually sad watching the ship drift away!

kevmy

Overall I really liked it. Tied up so many things very well. I do have some issues I didn't like (more of them later) but overall, satisfied. I gave it a 4/5 last night after watching it on reflection it's more like a 9 or 9.5/10.

Bits I loved.
- The first hour. I thought the fight with the colony was absolutely brilliant. The CGI, the action, the centurions everything. For people who said they didn't have a plan, well they did. There was only one place to jump into so they had to jump there and after that it was down to Anders to disable the Cylon guns. Which he did.

- Boomer got shot. Fair enough she tried to redeem herself but thank fcuk they didn't let her off the hook.

- Opera House I thought it was really well done tied in nicely and was about as good as you were going to get from that particular storyline.

- Helo lived. Was one of my favourite characters all along and was actually sadder about him than I was about Roslin.

- Kara typing in those co-ordinates. It again knitted together so well with most of the prophecies about her and Hera.

Bits I liked
- Flashbacks done well and explained some stuff and how so much was a bout choices and not just about God or divine intervention. If Adama hadn't decided to stay with Galactica, if Roslin hadn't decided to go back into politics would they have got to Earth - unlikely. This goes for Boomers decision too.

- The overall idea of the ending. Lee has being concentrating on breaking the cycle for a while and it makes sense that he would suggest this. They agreed because well New Caprica didn't work and I suppose it was as good as any other idea.

Bits I didn't like
- Kara's ending. I can buy Head 6 and Head Baltar being angels in fact that makes sense. But I can't buy Kara. I think they wrote themselves into a corner and couldn't think of any other way out. I just didn't like it.

- Cavill shooting himself. His whole purpose was to have the Cylons survive and then he commits suicide? An undeserving end to a great bad guy.

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I do find it odd that her ultimate aim to preserve and advance Baltar from scientist to Vice President, then president on Caprica, then religious leader of an all-female cult (where can I apply for the vacancy!?!) was simply to walk Hera a few steps into the CIC.

But it wasn't just those few steps. If he hadn't gone on his journey he wouldn't have made his speech which not only convinced Cavill and probably a lot of other people in the CIC

telemachus wrote: »

Yeah the whole "we've all decided to dump every bit of technology and spread ourselves accross the globe in small groups" in the space of about five minutes was a bit of a push , but I get the feeling Moore had already settled on his "mitochondrial eve" idea and he couldn't really have them setting up a nice big thriving city flogging combine harvesters to the natives 150,000 years back.

You would have thought having been hunted back and forth accross the universe with the threat of extinction present every minute and many of them trapped in near slave labour they would have wanted to settle together and finally be able to enjoy normal human interaction.

It was never said how much technology or medicine they kept with them. Sure the got rid of the ships, the jump drives, the guns, the toilets etc. but the may have kept a lot of stuff the needed like medicine and ploughs and stuff.


Overall pretty satisfactory. They wrapped up almost everything I can think off but just not in the way I'd have preferred some of it.

Syferus

Manic Moran wrote: »

Count me in on the slightly underwhelmed camp.So did Galen Tyrol end up founding the Gaelic tribes? What did they do with the Raptors and why haven't we found one yet? (And why didn't they just park Galactica on the far side of the moon? When Humanity got advanced enough to find it, they might do well to learn whatever lessons they might have left behind)

I won't take on the weight of the rest of your post as it's quite far reaching and in many cases, in my humble opinion, wrong.

But, Tyrol said there were no people where he was going. It was clearly supposed to indicate he'd live out his days as a hermit, not that he founded any 'tribe'.

We haven't found a raptor because this is a tv show.
Ho ho ho.

They probably burnt them, scraped them or did either after they stopped working - the survivors would have very little means to repair or refill the raptors.

If 'we' found Galactica or any other ship when we begun space travel with our tin foil landing craft, imagine the impact of the technology aboard. It would profound effect the society of the planet, something the colonists didn't want to.

They did their part, but the message was it's up to 'us' what happens after that.

noodler

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

they would have stayed on new caprica if she hadnt led the cylons to them though. And the great plan would never have come to fruitition.

Yes, but she pushed Baltar to become President and allow them to settle there in the first instance. So I guess what was the overall point of New Caprica in her plan? I can't think of a reason they wouldn't have found the TOF without it.

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

I actually thought he was going to greenland for some reason? Also on the chief, am I the only one who thought he needed to be a victim to an accident or self sacrifice or something, I mean he made so many f*ck ups in season 4 that I was convinced he was gonna do the noble sacrifice routine at some point.

I think they were being fairly transparent when they said highlands. I am certain it was Scotland.

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

That is a curious element, it is clearly the precursor to the Jewish faith and later on christianity, especially when you combine it with Starbucks Resurrection trick.

It does seem strange to spend 4 seasons telling Baltar to hail, trust, worship, believe in, fear etc this one true god and then say in the final scene it doesn't like being called god.

I mean we can plainly see that it is like the religions you just mentioned but did anyone of any importance actually live on to pass on this word?

In my own mind, the rest of the crew didn't survive very long, simply because this gives Hera the most importance in my book.

Syferus

kevmy wrote: »

- Cavill shooting himself. His whole purpose was to have the Cylons survive and then he commits suicide? An undeserving end to a great bad guy.

That was Dean Stockwell's, the actor, idea. Moore's script had Tigh going Tarzan on him and jumping from the balcony and breaking Cavil's neck.

Honestly, I prefered the shot version as it makes more sense that Cavil is so egotistic he'd prefer to do it to himself than letting someone else have the satisfaction of doing it to him.

kevmy

Syferus wrote: »

That was Dean Stockwell's, the actor, idea. Moore's script had Tigh going Tarzan on him and jumping from the balcony and breaking Cavil's neck.

Honestly, I prefered the shot version as it makes more sense that Cavil is so egotistic he'd prefer to do it to himself than letting someone else have the satisfaction of doing it to him.

Yeah I'm not so sure. Maybe because it was only a couple of seconds of screen time but I just thought he was a little short-changed as a big character death scene

noodler

It was funny as hell but ti didn't really work for me either. Nor did Cavil being convinced by Baltar mid-hostage situation either tbh.

It was hilarious though,

"FRACK"--BANG!

Reflector

I thought what happened to Tory was a bit harsh, I mean callie was going to Kill the kid with her and out them to the ship if she let her live.

I thought she was a bit of a bitch but still

Stark

Tory did it because she got pleasure from it and Tyrol would have felt that when they shared memories.

Syferus

Stark wrote: »

Tory did it because she got pleasure from it and Tyrol would have felt that when they shared memories.

It was less about pleasure and her trying to protect herself from Cally telling others what she was.

Remembering the squence right, Cally had handed over the baby and seemed to have broke down, and was at least not immediately planning to air-lock herself.

That's what would have enraged Tyrol.

Stark

No I think she definitely enjoyed it. Even afterwards she was saying how good it felt to be embracing her cylon side. You could see the glint in her eyes right before she threw Cally like a rag doll.

Syferus

Stark wrote: »

No I think she definitely enjoyed it. Even afterwards she was saying how good it felt to be embracing her cylon side. You could see the glint in her eyes right before she threw Cally like a rag doll.

I never said she got no pleasure from it, because it was quite clear since Tory found out that she was a clyon that her ego-centric tendencies came to the fore.

All I was saying was it wasn't simply ''I'm going to kill you, hahaha'' like some Wzard of Oz witch, but that her choice was grounded in the fact she didn't want to risk Cally exposing her.

Syferus

The more I think about it, the better I like the finale. There were alot of little things that you pick up on only after stewing on it.

There were so many great character moments near the end that it's worth another watch, even though I hardly ever re-watch whole episodes of shows in the immediate aftermath.

Sad Professor

I was dissatisfied with Tory's resolution as well. After she killed Cally it seemed they were going somewhere with her, but nothing really came of it. Tyrol finds out, he kills her, the end.

Given how convoluted the Boomer kidnap plot ended up, maybe Tory should have been the one to take Hera. They made a mess of Boomer's conclusion. I mean we get a really good flashback where she tells Adama that she "owes him one" and will deliver one day when it really matters — saving Hera. But that's ridiculous. If she hadn't taken Hera in the first place she wouldn't have had to rescue her from being dissected by Simon, and the Colonials wouldn't have had to go on a suicide mission to save her.

But of course then the Opera House/CIC scene never would have happened. God (aka Ron Moore) wanted it all to happen that way.

Syferus

Ooooh, I love the nebulus George Lucas style reputation some people who are dissatisfied with some parts of Battlestar are trying to attach to Ronald Moore.

Moore's let everyone have a say and real input and from his podcasts he's a pretty down to earth guy that critiques his own work more than anyone here does.

AnCapaillMor

Tory was a b1tch when she went over to the cylons. I was just finishin up the boxset last night, in one of the deleted scenes she was the one who suggested to D'anna to start executing the hostages and was very anti fleet. She was very cold to Roslin too. Tory was the bad egg i would'nt be surprised if its revealed in the cylon film that she was somehow involved in the cylons revenge attack.

telemachus

Yeah, Tori was a bit of a strange one given that she was somewhat central being in the final five, she pretty much had less depth than any other semi-central character, she was the anti-baltar, where he did a procession of dubious things and redeemed himself she was more or less consistently horrible and charmless.

Syferus

AnCapaillMor wrote: »

Tory was a b1tch when she went over to the cylons. I was just finishin up the boxset last night, in one of the deleted scenes she was the one who suggested to D'anna to start executing the hostages and was very anti fleet. She was very cold to Roslin too. Tory was the bad egg i would'nt be surprised if its revealed in the cylon film that she was somehow involved in the cylons revenge attack.

Not much of a chance of that.

Since Cavil basically air-locked all five of them after he was created by them that it's unlikely Tory was working with him, especially since here appearence as Billy's replacement occurred outside the remit of ''The Plan'' - that goes from before the Fall to mid-way through season 2.

It's unlikely she was up to much before that since it's see-through that her character just filled in for one whose actor refused to commit to a longer contract.

The Plan centers on Cavil and Anders, according to what I've read.

ManOfMystery

Some more thoughts on the finale ....

The Opera House - so it was the Galactica CIC all along. Seasons later, huge amounts of exposition, huge amounts of questions from us fans and all along the Opera House was really just an analogy for the final showdown on Galactica itself. The Final Five standing on that raised section (as they were imagined in white hoods) gave me goosebumps.

Lee Adama - I felt sad for him. He's grown a huge amount as a character and continues to toe this fine line between perfect soldier/pilot and political candidate. He has a good soul and carries his father's convictions ....... in other words, he knows the difference between right and wrong and isn't afraid to speak out. Nevertheless, despite being a sympathetic character, he is left alone in this finale and deserves our pity. I think we'd all liked to have seen him end up with Kara - with the flashbacks, it seems they were destined to be together from day one, given their chemistry, so it was surprising that she upped and vanished.

Kara Thrace (Starbuck) - So what is she exactly ............ angel? demon? a vision? something in Lee's head? My money is simply on 'messenger of God'. She's not good or bad. She's not here to sway the human race one way or another. She simply has a role to fulfil, and in those crucial moments when Galactica is waiting to jump, she finally realises her destiny, works out the code from the music and plots the jump co-ordinates. And thus the circle is complete - Kara Thrace finally fufills her role as the 'Harbinger of Doom' - only it's doom for the Cylons, who now have no way of finding Hera or recreating.

Helo/Valerii - Not a huge amount in character progression here, but I didn't expect them to feature heavily in the finale anyway. Helo offers up his life for his daughter but ultimately survives. In one sense they don't have a huge role in the finale in terms of screentime, but in another sense; their daughter is the 'mother' of the human race, so their role is critically important.

Laura Roslin - finally she reached the end of her journey. Her death, which was foretold so long ago, finally comes to pass on the one true 'Earth' as they know it. The flashback was confusing to me at first (what purpose could it serve?), but I came to realise that it highlighed a very important step in Roslin's life; the point where she decided not to pursue her own goals, but to work in politics for the greater good.
Her death was handled very well by Mary McDonnell, with some touching moments beforehand with Adama.

Tigh/Ellen - what is there to say? They finally end up together again, living off the rest of their days on Earth. Despite Ellen's earlier promiscuity and Sol's earlier drinking problem, they made it through all their difficulties and ultimately fulfilled their destiny - which is surely to be together.

Baltar/Caprica (the real ones) - Baltar finally stops thinking about himself and focuses on the greater good. I think we all knew that the finale would see some kind of end to his selfishness (one way or another), but did we see that the final conversation between Baltar and Cavill would decide the fate of two civilisations?

Baltar/Caprica (the imaginary ones) - Like Kara Thrace, we don't really know what they are. Angels? Messengers from God? God himself? No matter what, they raised some interesting points and added a huge spiritual dimension to this overly sci-fi show.

Tyrol - I knew sooner or later Tryol would end up finding out about Callie. And he finally did, the rage erupted. I for one was surprised that we suddenly went from the final five to the final four! But still, the look of anger on his face when he learned of Callie's fate was worth seeing.

Sam Anders - Bit of a sad ending for Sam. In one way, he fulfils his destiny (even as a professional sports player on Caprica he noted his gravitation towards the perfect mathematical model of life/physics ............. but in another way, we expected to see him live or at least be reunited with Kara Thrace - and this didn't happen. Instead we get a bittersweet ending with Sam flying the remainder of the fleet into our Sun to melt.


William Adama - Finally, the old man. His ending was a very sad one .............. destined to live out his days alone, without his son or his one true love. We can only guess as to whether he lives in peaceful solitude, enjoying his 'real' retirement ...................... or as to whether he longs to return to his longterm role as Admiral on the Galactica.

Awesome show, awesome finale.My only gripe is we didn't get to see Adama and Tigh doing the long goodbye, given their friendship.

Syferus

ManOfMystery wrote: »

The Opera House - so it was the Galactica CIC all along. Seasons later, huge amounts of exposition, huge amounts of questions from us fans and all along the Opera House was really just an analogy for the final showdown on Galactica itself. The Final Five standing on that raised section (as they were imagined in white hoods) gave me goosebumps.

I've seen similar sentiments a few times, but for me, and I hope most people, since Natalie, the rebel cylon leader, was shot dead by Athena in a Opera House/Galactica intercut it has been clear that the Opera House was Galactica.

As the symbolic and physical heart of human-cylon union, and with a half human, half cylon child the central figure, I thought it common knowledge that the Opera House was Galactica from at least then on. It's not like they could do any more besides shout ''GALACTICA = OPERA HOUSE'' to further that point.

noodler

ManOfMystery wrote: »

Some more thoughts on the finale ....

The Opera House - so it was the Galactica CIC all along. Seasons later, huge amounts of exposition, huge amounts of questions from us fans and all along the Opera House was really just an analogy for the final showdown on Galactica itself. The Final Five standing on that raised section (as they were imagined in white hoods) gave me goosebumps.

Lee Adama - I felt sad for him. He's grown a huge amount as a character and continues to toe this fine line between perfect soldier/pilot and political candidate. He has a good soul and carries his father's convictions ....... in other words, he knows the difference between right and wrong and isn't afraid to speak out. Nevertheless, despite being a sympathetic character, he is left alone in this finale and deserves our pity. I think we'd all liked to have seen him end up with Kara - with the flashbacks, it seems they were destined to be together from day one, given their chemistry, so it was surprising that she upped and vanished.

Kara Thrace (Starbuck) - So what is she exactly ............ angel? demon? a vision? something in Lee's head? My money is simply on 'messenger of God'. She's not good or bad. She's not here to sway the human race one way or another. She simply has a role to fulfil, and in those crucial moments when Galactica is waiting to jump, she finally realises her destiny, works out the code from the music and plots the jump co-ordinates. And thus the circle is complete - Kara Thrace finally fufills her role as the 'Harbinger of Doom' - only it's doom for the Cylons, who now have no way of finding Hera or recreating.

Helo/Valerii - Not a huge amount in character progression here, but I didn't expect them to feature heavily in the finale anyway. Helo offers up his life for his daughter but ultimately survives. In one sense they don't have a huge role in the finale in terms of screentime, but in another sense; their daughter is the 'mother' of the human race, so their role is critically important.

Laura Roslin - finally she reached the end of her journey. Her death, which was foretold so long ago, finally comes to pass on the one true 'Earth' as they know it. The flashback was confusing to me at first (what purpose could it serve?), but I came to realise that it highlighed a very important step in Roslin's life; the point where she decided not to pursue her own goals, but to work in politics for the greater good.
Her death was handled very well by Mary McDonnell, with some touching moments beforehand with Adama.

Tigh/Ellen - what is there to say? They finally end up together again, living off the rest of their days on Earth. Despite Ellen's earlier promiscuity and Sol's earlier drinking problem, they made it through all their difficulties and ultimately fulfilled their destiny - which is surely to be together.

Baltar/Caprica (the real ones) - Baltar finally stops thinking about himself and focuses on the greater good. I think we all knew that the finale would see some kind of end to his selfishness (one way or another), but did we see that the final conversation between Baltar and Cavill would decide the fate of two civilisations?

Baltar/Caprica (the imaginary ones) - Like Kara Thrace, we don't really know what they are. Angels? Messengers from God? God himself? No matter what, they raised some interesting points and added a huge spiritual dimension to this overly sci-fi show.

Tyrol - I knew sooner or later Tryol would end up finding out about Callie. And he finally did, the rage erupted. I for one was surprised that we suddenly went from the final five to the final four! But still, the look of anger on his face when he learned of Callie's fate was worth seeing.

Sam Anders - Bit of a sad ending for Sam. In one way, he fulfils his destiny (even as a professional sports player on Caprica he noted his gravitation towards the perfect mathematical model of life/physics ............. but in another way, we expected to see him live or at least be reunited with Kara Thrace - and this didn't happen. Instead we get a bittersweet ending with Sam flying the remainder of the fleet into our Sun to melt.


William Adama - Finally, the old man. His ending was a very sad one .............. destined to live out his days alone, without his son or his one true love. We can only guess as to whether he lives in peaceful solitude, enjoying his 'real' retirement ...................... or as to whether he longs to return to his longterm role as Admiral on the Galactica.

Awesome show, awesome finale.My only gripe is we didn't get to see Adama and Tigh doing the long goodbye, given their friendship.

Good thoughts.


Eh, actually I have a question here, at the moment it seems like a major plothole to me but I guess others can give an opinion to it. But how the hell were the Colonial administration asking Adama if he was a Cylon when they didn't even know skinjobs existed at the time? Certainly Adama didn't know as the miniseries shows us.

Is this just an error or are we to believe the colonial admin knew?

Sad Professor

noodler wrote: »

Eh, actually I have a question here, at the moment it seems like a major plothole to me but I guess others can give an opinion to it. But how the hell were the Colonial administration asking Adama if he was a Cylon when they didn't even know skinjobs existed at the time? Certainly Adama didn't know as the miniseries shows us.

Is this just an error or are we to believe the colonial admin knew?

I noticed this as well. I wouldn't read anything into. Just a little mistake. Or you could just see it as a silly question they asked to calibrate the machine.

noodler

Oh yeah, not reading anything into it, just wondering was it a mistake or a calibration exercise as you mentioned.

Volvagia

Syferus wrote: »

I've seen similar sentiments a few times, but for me, and I hope most people, since Natalie, the rebel cylon leader, was shot dead by Athena in a Opera House/Galactica intercut it has been clear that the Opera House was Galactica.

As the symbolic and physical heart of human-cylon union, and with a half human, half cylon child the central figure, I thought it common knowledge that the Opera House was Galactica from at least then on. It's not like they could do any more besides shout ''GALACTICA = OPERA HOUSE'' to further that point.

Good point, I was actually rewatching "Guess who's coming to dinner today" and I had completely forgotten about that scene.

I really liked the Opera House CIC bit in the finale, i thought it was done very well and the little bit of foreshadowing in guess whos coming makes it even nicer.

BlitzKrieg

Eh, actually I have a question here, at the moment it seems like a major plothole to me but I guess others can give an opinion to it. But how the hell were the Colonial administration asking Adama if he was a Cylon when they didn't even know skinjobs existed at the time? Certainly Adama didn't know as the miniseries shows us.

I dont think it was a question to see if he was skinjob, but a test to see if the machine is calibrated correctly, he is given a series of questions where the answer has to be *yes* or *no* are you a cylon at that point was an obvious no because he isnt big fracking toaster with a red beam visor harking out *By your command* I think the interviewer apoligised because Adama fought in the war.