Will you protest tax increases?

smallBiscuit

So, reading the comments in the papers and on the news, it looks like that good ol Cowen and Co have decided that they are going to do the fair and just thing in the budget and tax those who are paid so low they can't afford to pay it. Will you protest?

Me, I'm already thinking of slogans for my poster, I was thinking of going with roop eht ot evig dna hcir eht morf ekaT. dooH niboR
But I'm not sure if people would get it

Incidentally I was reading in the Indo last week the fact that a 1% increase on the rich man's tax would produce more money than a 5% tax on the poor.
Also AFAIK they intend to do it by lowering the tax bottom. Which means we will all pay it - that's the argument, a "fair tax". I in my madness think that the people who should pay for the failed tiger are those that benefited by it

nesf

No because I'm able to do enough primary school maths to realise that they have no choice in the matter.

dbyrne

they have no choice but to get money but the way they are doing it is wrong. Couple of points i believe, only my opinions though so dont shoot me if you dont agree
- tax bands - change the bands, make 3 or 4 bands,
- lower - min wage to lets say 40,000 just say 20%
- med - 40k - 100k or 150k - just say 35%
- higher - all over 150k - just say 46%
- look at the section 23's and all these dodgy ways of avoiding paying tax and sort them out
- reduce VAT and change VAT levels for example
- safety gear shouldnt have 21% VAT, reduce it to 13.5 or 10%
- 21.5% vat level has to change to make us more competitive, change levels and rebrand products in each level
- stop making it so expensive for business to run, increased rates etc
- get rind of the red tape, too much government red tape
- change duty on drink etc
- add gum tax, will bing in money
- stop wasting money on the hospitals by patcing them up, stop over paying to top of the pile, if the job only offers 200k and they want 400k, you will get people who will take 200k, also stop people being able to work for the state and have their private practices
- prisons, stop people who dont pay their fines going to prison, change the laws from garnishinig their wages/welfare and make them do charity work, collect money, clean streets, work in social centers

nesf

dbyrne wrote: »

they have no choice but to get money but the way they are doing it is wrong. Couple of points i believe, only my opinions though so dont shoot me if you dont agree
- tax bands - change the bands, make 3 or 4 bands,
- lower - min wage to lets say 40,000 just say 20%
- med - 40k - 100k or 150k - just say 35%
- higher - all over 150k - just say 46%

No. Removing the PRSI ceiling would achieve similar results without needing to overcomplicate things with the addition of a third band. Keep the system as simple as possible so everyone can understand it. A complicated multi-tiered system only serves to make tax accountants wealthier!

By removing the PRSI ceiling you would immediately increase the tax someone on over 100K a year would be paying by 2-3%. I can't remember the exact figures but there you go.


In terms of tax, we need to broaden the tax net to take in more people at lower incomes and need to raise both the standard and top rates by 1-2% (preferably 2%). Not nice but we need the cash unfortunately.*

The ideally, we should look into Pigovian taxes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax) to recoup some more of the shortfall.

Edit:

*I just want to explain why we need to increase the standard rate of tax. Basically, the vast majority of us, myself included, pay no or very little tax at 41%. Increasing the top rate just won't bring in enough. We're short over €20 billion. That's the entire cost of the Dept. of Health and Dept. of Education combined essentially. We need to hit everyone, even those on modest incomes, for a bit of extra tax money, no matter how unpopular that will be.

xOxSinéadxOx

to answer your question, no.

smallBiscuit

nesf wrote: »

No because I'm able to do enough primary school maths to realise that they have no choice in the matter.

Me too, you reduce my wages with more tax, you also start taxing my other half. Bingo, I believe with our combined income we are now entitled to state assistance (only a small bit, but I think it will cover the extra tax we will have to pay) and medical card.

Which is cheaper? Robbing the poor or not putting them in the position where you are going to take the money with the right hand and hand it back with the left (hey it's a bit like a reversal of most government schemes, give with the right and take with left)

I'm 33 years old, been working since I was 17 and have never claimed any assistance from the government. Do this and I have to, the mortgage has to be fed

smallBiscuit

Here's a thought, follow the German Chancellors subtle suggestion and reduce TD pay, also dump most of the sub committees.
Things are bad, our country needs more money, fine I accept that, but for a change, start from the top, not the bottom

Just a random thought, but would it be in any way legal under current EU law to maybe outsource all of our prisoners to Poland or somewhere similar? We're talking almost 100k per prisoner and 250k per juvenile. What a waste. It would have the two-fold effect of decreasing crime and insanely decreasing our preposterous prisoner bill.

Oh, and to keep it on topic, no I wont.
As long as the increases are met with some PROPER spending cuts. And I don't mean education etc here, I mean finishing projects on time and on budget, putting the bane of this society on food stamps as opposed to 200+ euro a week, removing the medical card from people who can afford it, and pumping up the tax on booze and smokes ETC.

ParkRunner

Recent protests have achieved nothing really, not even over 100,000 people marching though Dublin led to any change of policy from the government. Even the unions have had no impact. Nearly every week now there is some form of protest (students, OAP's, taxi drivers, gardai, sr technics etc). As a democractic country the best protest is at the ballot box. Chances are the upcoming budget will easily be rubberstamped and implemented so it's at the stage that it is each to their own to get through these tough measures.

Tech3

No I wont be protesting tax increases. I think people have to be realistic and accept the fact that our public finances are not under control. I would take as much as whatever the government think is needed.

Alot has changed from the last budget in terms of peoples knowledge over how much trouble we as a country are in. We need to accept what is coming and move forward.

The main concern I would have though is that we need a fair budget especially on the lower paid. VAT needs to be reduced on goods IMO. Towns such as Sligo are severely effected by the recession.

emmyea

I just wish the government would do it already! Stop stringing us along with dribs of information.

smallBiscuit

tech2 wrote: »

No I wont be protesting tax increases. I think people have to be realistic and accept the fact that our public finances are not under control. I would take as much as whatever the government think is needed.

AFAIR the last pay increase for Cowen and Co was in 2007, and I don't recall any talk of pay cuts at the top, Cowen earns more than the US president.

http://www.newrossstandard.ie/news/public-outrage-at-massive-pay-rise-for-top-politicians-1220691.html

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

smallBiscuit

emmyea wrote: »

I just wish the government would do it already! Stop stringing us along with dribs of information.

The purpose of the dribs is shock reduction, if we've been hearing about it for weeks before it actually happens, we won't be so surprised

Hey from post #8, do you think we could outsource the government? Plenty of countries would do it cheaper

Tech3

smallBiscuit wrote: »

AFAIR the last pay increase for Cowen and Co was in 2007, and I don't recall any talk of pay cuts at the top, Cowen earns more than the US president.

http://www.newrossstandard.ie/news/public-outrage-at-massive-pay-rise-for-top-politicians-1220691.html

Where in my post did I mention pay cuts at the top. Anyway to reply to your post I think every TD should take another 30-40% pay cut each.

McCruiskeen

SHOCK HORROR.

Government that has to borrow €10,000 per taxpayer per year raises taxes!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mr.Micro

What was supposed to be a mini-budget now looks like its going to be the mother of all budgets...... and all the tax/revenue to be more than likely wasted by this Government?

McCruiskeen

and all the tax/revenue to be more than likely wasted by this Government?

So you agree that all Health and Education spending is wasted????

Oh wait. More spending for health and education???

Bet you vote Labour!

leeroybrown

I certainly won't be protesting. Large increases in tax are required as otherwise the country will effectively bankrupt itself.

Also, with regard to the suggestions above about multiple bands, etc, they're extremely unlikely to implement anything that isn't levy based in the short term due to the massive costs associated with changing the bands mid-year for the Revenue and businesses. I'd expect that the changes would then translate into new tax bands for the 2010 tax year.

Dr Galen

No i won't be, needs to be done. I think people are beginning to realise the enormity of the situation and that we need action to be taken.

It's all very well talking about reducing TD's pay, and slashing committee's but again I don't think people really get it. We are billions short, not a few million, cutting a few things here and there is not going to wash.

Now would i take part in a protest against the current government, against the wastage and short sightedness that has contributed to this situation being so bad\=? Yep definitely.

Dr Galen

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

:rolleyes:

was waiting for this.....

ah you know I'm omly messing DF, though there may be some merit in what you suggest, but I think our views would significantly diverge after the Government collapsed

leeroybrown

Mr.Micro wrote: »

What was supposed to be a mini-budget now looks like its going to be the mother of all budgets...... and all the tax/revenue to be more than likely wasted by this Government?

It was always going to be the mother of all budgets. I know I'd been expecting a massive hit in the first half of this year but thought things could possibly last to June without it happening. They're just drip feeding the bad news slowly. Expect that every time one change is made someone from the government will immediately seed another future change to start getting people ready for it.

Also, regardless of how effective you consider government spending to be, these tax increases will avoid the government having to wipe multiple billions per year off required public expenditure and avoid the consequent heavy job losses.

Mr.Micro

McCruiskeen wrote: »

So you agree that all Health and Education spending is wasted????

Oh wait. More spending for health and education???

Bet you vote Labour!

C'mon now we have an absolutely incompetent Government, which has blown all our wealth over the last few years. What has changed to make it better?

xOxSinéadxOx

the government were very slow off the mark though weren't they? I mean thy had an early budget but why did they bother, they didn't do much then. I'd say this 'mini-budget' is going to be savage

smallBiscuit

McCruiskeen wrote: »

SHOCK HORROR.

Government that has to borrow €10,000 per taxpayer per year raises taxes!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's not the tax increases, although if it's optional, I'm going to give it a miss this time. The problem is taking from the bottom, the poor are called the poor because they have no money, taking from those who cannot afford it is simply wrong

blast05

My answer to the question - it depends on the breakdown of the 4.5 billion budget. If its 3 billion cuts and 1.5 billion tax increases then fine ..... if the tax take is higher to make up the 4.5 billion the i'd protest.

The reality is that the total percentage of tax of gross pay in 1995 was more or less the same as it is now ...... i.e.: despite all of the tax cuts of the last decade, various other 'hidden' stealth taxes have taken their place. This is an OECD stat that i haven't time to dig out.

So what does that tax statistic mean given the much greater percentage budgetary deficit now compared to 1995 .... well obviously we are now spending much much greater sums of money (in percentage terms, not just relatively) on the public sector compared to 10 years ago - so cut the bloody public sector pay. I'm happy to pay extra taxes for the better public services that we have now compared to 1995 but not happy that a junior doctor in Finland (where cost of living is similar to here) is paid less that an ambulance driver here .... and hundreds of other similar examples of excessive pay and even more examples of waste and inefficieces.

I work for a company of ~80,000 employees worldwide. From a very very lean and tight base (vastly tighter and leaner than the public sector .... my wife and sisters work there), another 1 billion euro of budget cuts will be made this year at the cost of only 7% of the work base and with no less total output. Something comparable in the public sector here would mean public sector numbers dropping from 320K to ~300K and public sector total savings of approx 4 billion from a much higher starting position .... so why can't it be done in the public sector where it would not be as painful to achieve. Indeed, i would guesstimate that double the 4 billion could be achieved.

McCruiskeen

I earn 30,000 grand a year and just got a 10% paycut, 2 masters degrees and could be sacked tomorrow (sorry but no sympathy for pension levy moaners, yes I only have 19 days off a year no matter how much I fiddle and I am very tired)

I don't care about feckin politics and Fianna Fail "corruption blah blah blah" (based on nothing these days, thank god except opposition with nothing to offer).

I want us to do the right things and I want a future in 5 years.

You can't strike against a recession!!!

You can strike against a government, but not against a government that you voted in for 3 times in a row.

dbyrne

i was staying away from the welfare bit but i am 100% behind the return to food stamps, another bonus of this is that the governemtn can regulate what they are willing to pay for and item,
make ireland open for business, stop introducing stupid laws that are just making companies close down.
my idea of 3 bans is not to go back to the time where the government take 60 - 70% of someones wages like the used to, why should any artist over 100k not pay proper taxs, i know they pay tax but at a reduced rate.
McCruiskeen, you might agree with me if i say that to earn 90% of the money you used to is better than having no job, this seems to be a thing that civil servents and dublin bus workers etc dont seem to understand. many companies have taken pay cuts or 3 day weeks to keep jobs. i want a future for me and ireland in 5 years time but the private sector, you and me, cannot come out and support the public sector because they are not in the same position that we are and to be honest i dontthink they care about us. How about the governemtn tells them instead of having a pension levy,which they get back unlike us, that to make the same savings they will have to let 20000 of them go. i think they would jump at the pension levy.

Mr.Micro

I don't care about feckin politics and Fianna Fail "corruption blah blah blah" (based on nothing these days, thank god except opposition with nothing to offer).

Like FF then, only more a lot more of nothing.

Stones85

I won't protest, cause it'll have no affect on the gombeen cnuts in the Dail. JUST MAKE SURE YOU DONT FCKING VOTE THE FCKERS BACK INTO POWER NEXT TIME ROUND!!!!!

smallBiscuit

Folks, I think we're missing the point of my original post. it is not a problem with tax increases they have to happen. It is taxing the bottom rung of society. It's taking money off people who haven't got any.
Akin to asking somebody with only one kidney to donate a kidney. Might save somebody else, but it will kill them