Next for Dunne

Big Ears · 23-03-2009 12:13pm

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

john47832 wrote: »

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

What had Bernard Dunne to earn his world title shot - dont you realise that the boxing world was calling foul about Bernards shot!?

"was" being the operative word!

Bernard hadnt made even the slightest dent on the world scene until Saturday night. Thats the truth - we wasnt even rated in the top ten - and even now just creeps in!

Who had Bernard beaten to get him the shot?

Considering it was the WBA regular title and that there's a WBA Super-CHampion in the division(meaining there's 5 belts out there plus Vasquez's real title) then I think you can justify his shot. At least before the fight I felt he deserved it. The European champion wasn't willing to take the fight, but the next highest European ranked fighter was.....and he took it.

Hangballlouie · 23-03-2009 12:13pm

john47832 wrote: »

He won it by catching Bernard cold, lost it straight away, and couldnt regain it... There is too much of a danger here to try gain revenge. I'm not looking for Bernard to now take an easy route (but wouldnt blame him if he does) as I would like to see him in against Ponce De Leon, he needs to be pushed to raise his game and only big names will do this - also no shame in defeat against big names... but Kiko is history, the belt is in Neilstown and the Kiko videos on youtube have now been replaced with something more enjoyable!!!

Long live youtube

Kiko is the easy route, that is what I am saying.
A true champion goes after the guy who beat him and rightly so.

This is what Bernard needs to do imo. Beat Kiko, erase the memory and get a very good pay day. Simple

T-K-O · 23-03-2009 12:14pm

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

go onto ANY boxing forum that isnt populated by solely Irish people and you will be plenty that were pizzed off that Bernard got a shot.

Bernard didnt deserve his shot - he genuinely didnt - but my god did he take it!

Bernard got his shot because Peters came up with the cash - well done to Peters!

Boy, I spend most of my posting time on American sites and that is not that case.

mark renton · 23-03-2009 12:16pm

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

john47832 wrote: »

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

What had Bernard Dunne to earn his world title shot - dont you realise that the boxing world was calling foul about Bernards shot!?

"was" being the operative word!

Bernard hadnt made even the slightest dent on the world scene until Saturday night. Thats the truth - we wasnt even rated in the top ten - and even now just creeps in!

Who had Bernard beaten to get him the shot?

"Unlucky" being the operative word

Bernard is not the first boxer outside of the top ten to get a world title shot

IMO -I think being the best super bantam in Europe is just cause for a shot at world title

sligobhoy67 · 23-03-2009 12:19pm

hangballlouie wrote: »

Kiko is the easy route, that is what I am saying.
A true champion goes after the guy who beat him and rightly so.

This is what Bernard needs to do imo. Beat Kiko, erase the memory and get a very good pay day. Simple

exactly!

Kiko is the ideal opponent for a first defense.

a. name recognition - my Ma knows who he is - she doesnt know who Juanma is!
b. cheap - the guy would do it for buttons - I reckon he would fight for less than £50k, probably a lot less - therefore earning Bernard tons
c. beatability - Bernard got caught and fought like a stupid niave boxers - it obvious from Saturday night that he has learn what to do when he gets hit - run and tie up until the head clear - NOT brawl!

sligobhoy67 · 23-03-2009 12:22pm

john47832 wrote: »

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

john47832 wrote: »

"Unlucky" being the operative word

Bernard is not the first boxer outside of the top ten to get a world title shot

IMO -I think being the best super bantam in Europe is just cause for a shot at world title

talking to you is like banging yer head against a brick wall!

No one said that he was the first undeserving fighter to get a shot - just that he was undeserving!

a. On what basis as you saying that Bernard was the best European SBW?

b. do you not think that fighters ranked higher deserved a shot first.

sligobhoy67 · 23-03-2009 12:34pm

T-K-O wrote: »

Boy, I spend most of my posting time on American sites and that is not that case.

boxrec and eastside had numerous comments questioning why Dunne got a shot before those ranked above him!

mark renton · 23-03-2009 12:37pm

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

john47832 wrote: »

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

talking to you is like banging yer head against a brick wall!

No one said that he was the first undeserving fighter to get a shot - just that he was undeserving!

a. On what basis as you saying that Bernard was the best European SBW?

b. do you not think that fighters ranked higher deserved a shot first.

a. Gaining european title, defending easily, and being very unlucky against Martinez in losing the title. I have always been of the belief that this fight was not fair judgement on who was the better fighter, stubborn that may be but thats my opinion.

b. This was a non mandatory title fight, hand picked opponent. So on that basis I will quote Clint Eastwood "Deserves got nothing to do with it"

sligobhoy67 · 23-03-2009 12:42pm

john47832 wrote: »

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

john47832 wrote: »

a. Gaining european title, defending easily, and being very unlucky against Martinez in losing the title. I have always been of the belief that this fight was not fair judgement on who was the better fighter, stubborn that may be but thats my opinion.

b. This was a non mandatory title fight, hand picked opponent. So on that basis I will quote Clint Eastwood "Deserves got nothing to do with it"

a. He lost the title and the guy he lost it to lost it again! You are embarassing yourself with the logic you are using!

b. I know it was a non mandatory title fight and I know the reasons he was picked - he was getting big money and thought he would beat BD easily. The question was about how much BD deserved the shot - he didnt, its as simple as that. I am delighted he got it and delighted he won and it almost makes it more of an achievement that he didnt deserve the shot but the fact is he didnt.

Bernard hadnt beaten anyone of note prior to Saturday.

mark renton · 23-03-2009 12:47pm

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

john47832 wrote: »

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

a. He lost the title and the guy he lost it to lost it again! You are embarassing yourself with the logic you are using!

b. I know it was a non mandatory title fight and I know the reasons he was picked - he was getting big money and thought he would beat BD easily. The question was about how much BD deserved the shot - he didnt, its as simple as that. I am delighted he got it and delighted he won and it almost makes it more of an achievement that he didnt deserve the shot but the fact is he didnt.

Bernard hadnt beaten anyone of note prior to Saturday.

Ok so - In your opinion, are you saying that before this fight Rendall Munroe was a better boxer than Bernard/ would beat Bernard?

sligobhoy67 · 23-03-2009 12:54pm

john47832 wrote: »

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

john47832 wrote: »

Ok so - In your opinion, are you saying that before this fight Rendall Munroe was a better boxer than Bernard/ would beat Bernard?

whats the point in talkin to you?

On Saturday, Rendall Murnoe was the reigning European title holder and rated in the top ten at SBW.

On Saturday, Bernard Dunne had no belt, had no top class wins on his record and was rated outside the top ten.

They are facts - facts man facts. Using logic, factual information and logic who out of the two deserved the shot at the title??

It wasnt just about Munroe - there were those rated even higher than Munroe that didnt get the shot.

Thats not a slight at Bernard that is a slight at Cordoba - he figured BD was weak and an easy big pay day before he had to face the mandatory challenger. He was wrong!

That doesnt change the fact that there were those more deserving of the shot before Bernard. Before Saturday Bernard had never beaten anyone in the top ten!

T-K-O · 23-03-2009 12:57pm

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

boxrec and eastside had numerous comments questioning why Dunne got a shot before those ranked above him!

Any such comment is simply an attempt to belittle Dunne.

You initial post made it look like the boxing world was up in arms over this fight and that was not the case.
We could make these comments about 9/10 title fights - they mean nothing.

sligobhoy67 · 23-03-2009 1:09pm

T-K-O wrote: »

Any such comment is simply an attempt to belittle Dunne.

You initial post made it look like the boxing world was up in arms over this fight and that was not the case.
We could make these comments about 9/10 title fights - they mean nothing.

I agree that the people that made those comments had an agenda and many were Munroe fans that were jealous that Peters had the balls to stump up the cash and take the risk. However, that doesnt mean they didnt have a point. The point being that there were others in the SBW division that deserved the shot before Bernard - and in truth there were - there is no getting away from that.

The point was made that Kiko should be up next for BD. The counter point was made that Kiko hasnt done anything to deserve it. This was reposted with Bernard hadnt done anything more than Kiko to deserve his shot. All are valid points imo.

mark renton · 23-03-2009 1:11pm

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

john47832 wrote: »

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

whats the point in talkin to you?

On Saturday, Rendall Murnoe was the reigning European title holder and rated in the top ten at SBW.

On Saturday, Bernard Dunne had no belt, had no top class wins on his record and was rated outside the top ten.

They are facts - facts man facts. Using logic, factual information and logic who out of the two deserved the shot at the title??

My opinion raised, before/after saturday - Bernard was best sbw in Europe - thus deserving title shot...

Did he deserve it more than some others?? We could point out 95% of non mandatory title fights and pick a more deserving sole... Again I refer to Clint - so the logic I applied to who is deserving of a world title shot is not flawed my friend, rather the question of "does this fighter deserve a world title shot" (outside of mandatory challenges) cannot be answered definitively yes/no

T-K-O · 23-03-2009 1:14pm

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

I agree that the people that made those comments had an agenda and many were Munroe fans that were jealous that Peters had the balls to stump up the cash and take the risk. However, that doesnt mean they didnt have a point. The point being that there were others in the SBW division that deserved the shot before Bernard - and in truth there were - there is no getting away from that.

The point was made that Kiko should be up next for BD. The counter point was made that Kiko hasnt done anything to deserve it. This was reposted with Bernard hadnt done anything more than Kiko to deserve his shot. All are valid points imo.

Again its a easy stick to beat someone with. If Dunne was rated 17th there are 16 guys more deserving that's the sport - again 9/10 fights are like that.

Kiko doesnt deserve a shot coming of a defeat lets see what he does next.

It's all politics although I have criticised Dunnes team in the past - there got the job done!

sligobhoy67 · 23-03-2009 1:17pm

john47832 wrote: »

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

john47832 wrote: »

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

whats the point in talkin to you?

On Saturday, Rendall Murnoe was the reigning European title holder and rated in the top ten at SBW.

On Saturday, Bernard Dunne had no belt, had no top class wins on his record and was rated outside the top ten.

They are facts - facts man facts. Using logic, factual information and logic who out of the two deserved the shot at the title??

My opinion raised, before/after saturday - Bernard was best sbw in Europe - thus deserving title shot...

Did he deserve it more than some others?? We could point out 95% of non mandatory title fights and pick a more deserving sole... Again I refer to Clint - so the logic I applied to who is deserving of a world title shot is not flawed my friend, rather the question of "does this fighter deserve a world title shot" (outside of mandatory challenges) cannot be answered definitively yes/no

Yes Clint Eastwood quote makes your logic perfectly OK! :rolleyes:

sligobhoy67 · 23-03-2009 1:21pm

T-K-O wrote: »

Again its a easy stick to beat someone with. If Dunne was rated 17th there are 16 guys more deserving that's the sport - again 9/10 fights are like that.

Kiko doesnt deserve a shot coming of a defeat lets see what he does next.

It's all politics although I have criticised Dunnes team in the past - there got the job done!

Yes it happens all the time - that doesnt mean that its fair does it. All I am saying is that there was more deserving fighters out there - the answer is there were!

Kiko deserves a shot as much as Dunne did. And if Dunne choose Kiko as his first defense he would be using the same logic as Cordoba did when choosing Dunne - and Dunne would be well entitled to do so!

T-K-O · 23-03-2009 1:31pm

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

Yes it happens all the time - that doesnt mean that its fair does it. All I am saying is that there was more deserving fighters out there - the answer is there were!

Kiko deserves a shot as much as Dunne did. And if Dunne choose Kiko as his first defense he would be using the same logic as Cordoba did when choosing Dunne - and Dunne would be well entitled to do so!

I'm not disagreeing its simply stating the obvious and not even worth discussing.

What I will say is NO ONE deserves a shot coming off a defeat.

mark renton · 23-03-2009 1:32pm

T-K-O wrote: »

What I will say is NO ONE deserves a shot coming off a defeat.

Good point

sligobhoy67 · 23-03-2009 1:39pm

T-K-O wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing its simply stating the obvious and not even worth discussing.

What I will say is NO ONE deserves a shot coming off a defeat.

its "not even worth discussing" if Dunne deserved the title shot!

and you next sentance discusses if Kiko deserves a world title shot. Good one!

The more I think about it the more I think that Kiko is a brilliant choice for Bernards next opponant!

sligobhoy67 · 23-03-2009 1:40pm

john47832 wrote: »

Good point

and someone who has never beaten a top ten fighter is?

mark renton · 23-03-2009 1:40pm

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

john47832 wrote: »

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

john47832 wrote: »

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

They are facts - facts man facts. Using logic, factual information and logic who out of the two deserved the shot at the title??

Yes Clint Eastwood quote makes your logic perfectly OK! :rolleyes:

Fact - Bernard Dunne is WBA world champion

Logic from an unnamed poster on another topic - Basically Dunnes title is a glorified "eliminator position"

sligobhoy67 · 23-03-2009 1:43pm

john47832 wrote: »

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

john47832 wrote: »

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

john47832 wrote: »

Fact - Bernard Dunne is WBA world champion

Logic from an unnamed poster on another topic - Basically Dunnes title is a glorified "eliminator position"

I suppose you are good for a laugh anyway even if you area total hypocrite and know jackshiit about boxing!

Sssssshhh! Celestino doesnt existing!

T-K-O · 23-03-2009 1:45pm

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

its "not even worth discussing" if Dunne deserved the title shot!

and you next sentance discusses if Kiko deserves a world title shot. Good one!

The more I think about it the more I think that Kiko is a brilliant choice for Bernards next opponant!

I have clearly said that in 9-10 title fights you could say the guy is not deserving due to ranking - that is a norm and a pointless discussion.

The next point is a guy coming off a defeat most certainly DOES NOT deserve a shot are you arguing that fact ?

sligobhoy67 · 23-03-2009 1:52pm

T-K-O wrote: »

I have clearly said that in 9-10 title fights you could say the guy is not deserving due to ranking - that is a norm and a pointless discussion.

The next point is a guy coming off a defeat most certainly DOES NOT deserve a shot are you arguing that fact ?

arguing what fact? the only fact you have stated is that Kiko is coming off a loss, the rest is opinion - of course I am not agruing that. Does a guy coming of a loss deserve a shot at the title - yes, why not how many shots did Wayne McCullough get comin off losses - if happens all the time. I dont think he deserves it but using the same logic Dunne didnt deserve his shot. Its hypocritical to argue otherwise.

The only sense that Dunne deserved his shot was financial - and Kiko makes financial senses as well.

How many of the general public know how Marquez or Caballero or even Munroe are - how many know who Kiko is?

Dunne deserves to cash in on his title and a fight against Kiko is the perfect way to do that - and it puts to bed the blemish on his record!

mark renton · 23-03-2009 1:56pm

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

john47832 wrote: »

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

john47832 wrote: »

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

I suppose you are good for a laugh anyway even if you area total hypocrite and know jackshiit about boxing!

Sssssshhh! Celestino doesnt existing!

Your gone off me crimbo card list...

T-K-O · 23-03-2009 2:04pm

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

arguing what fact? the only fact you have stated is that Kiko is coming off a loss, the rest is opinion - of course I am not agruing that. Does a guy coming of a loss deserve a shot at the title - yes, why not how many shots did Wayne McCullough get comin off losses - if happens all the time. I dont think he deserves it but using the same logic Dunne didnt deserve his shot. Its hypocritical to argue otherwise.

The only sense that Dunne deserved his shot was financial - and Kiko makes financial senses as well.

How many of the general public know how Marquez or Caballero or even Munroe are - how many know who Kiko is?

Dunne deserves to cash in on his title and a fight against Kiko is the perfect way to do that - and it puts to bed the blemish on his record!

So now Kiko is deserving because he general population know who he is.

Comparing Dunne and Kiko deserving a title shot at this time is silly.
Dunne is a huge draw here much bigger than Kiko is anywhere, Dunne came of 3 wins Kiko coming of a defeat. Its a no brainer.

I can come to terms with guys getting a shot ranked in the top 20 but a guy coming of a defeat - not that is a bigger pill to swallow.

sligobhoy67 · 23-03-2009 2:28pm

T-K-O wrote: »

So now Kiko is deserving because he general population know who he is.

Comparing Dunne and Kiko deserving a title shot at this time is silly.
Dunne is a huge draw here much bigger than Kiko is anywhere, Dunne came of 3 wins Kiko coming of a defeat. Its a no brainer.

I can come to terms with guys getting a shot ranked in the top 20 but a guy coming of a defeat - not that is a bigger pill to swallow.

sheesh!

I surrender!

Bernard deserved his shot and Celestino doesnt exist!

T-K-O · 23-03-2009 2:32pm

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

sheesh!

I surrender!

Bernard deserved his shot and Celestino doesnt exist!

What are you talking about - not once did I mention Caballero, I'll assume your talking about the guy Cordoba beat.

Big Ears · 23-03-2009 2:41pm

Bernard was a deserving voluntary, were there more deserving challengers ?, yes of course there was and many of them turned down the shot.

This was the WBA regular title and Dunne was within the WBA's top 15(although not top 10), and he was a hell of a lot more deserving to be there then the last man who held that position(Arsen Matirosyan).

Elvis Meija was a joke of an opponent for Caballero, Dunne however was just your normal voluntary defence.

There was nothing unusual with Dunne getting a shot, this was not a fight against Vasquez(where you would have to be genuine top 10 in the division to deserve it), it was a fight against the WBA regular champion.

Hangballlouie · 23-03-2009 3:09pm

The title of this thread is 'Next for Bernard Dunne' yet there is a discussion about whether certain boxers deserve this title shot or that title shot, well quite frankly it doesn't matter.
Bernard got his shot and took it, end of.

Now who should he fight next is the question and myself and Sligobhoy both think it should be Kiko.

Of course Martinez doesn't deserve a title shot but it is the right and logical step for Bernard.
It will sell tickets, give Dunne a big pay day and allow him to avenge his only loss.

Even if Bernard had lost on Saturday, I would still be calling for him to fight Kiko.
I know as well as most guys on here that Bernard is a hell of a lot better that Kiko so he should go out a do the business.
He had an off night, a bit like Lewis in Africa a few years back, but what Lewis did was avenge this defeat.
It doesn't matter to me that I think Bernard is better that Kiko, I want him to show me and the rest of the country that he is by whooping his ass.
And again it will be a GREAT PAY DAY, isn't that what we all want for BD?

walshb · 23-03-2009 3:23pm

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

john47832 wrote: »

sligobhoy67 wrote: »

whats the point in talkin to you?

On Saturday, Rendall Murnoe was the reigning European title holder and rated in the top ten at SBW.

On Saturday, Bernard Dunne had no belt, had no top class wins on his record and was rated outside the top ten.

They are facts - facts man facts. Using logic, factual information and logic who out of the two deserved the shot at the title??

It wasnt just about Munroe - there were those rated even higher than Munroe that didnt get the shot.

Thats not a slight at Bernard that is a slight at Cordoba - he figured BD was weak and an easy big pay day before he had to face the mandatory challenger. He was wrong!

That doesnt change the fact that there were those more deserving of the shot before Bernard. Before Saturday Bernard had never beaten anyone in the top ten!

Holy sh1t fellas, this post is pure sense and anyone who cannot follow it is off the wall. Bernard did not deserve a title shot. NOBODY outside the top ten does deserve a shot. They get shots, we all know this, but they don't deserve them. Lets be real here and honest here without feeling we are
belittling Dunne.

The world of boxing is corrupt and convoluted and all over the place.
Dunne got his shot at a version of a version and he took it, congrats and now lets be honest about it. I said fro the start that he didn't deserve a shot.

He has taken his chance, but at least lets say it as it is

mark renton · 23-03-2009 3:34pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyV7PDXTVQ0

Did little Bill deserve to die? Do I deserve to get laid tonight?

Clint is the Man...

Big Ears · 23-03-2009 3:35pm

walshb wrote: »

Holy sh1t fellas, this post is pure sense and anyone who cannot follow it is off the wall. Bernard did not deserve a title shot. NOBODY outside the top ten does deserve a shot. They get shots, we all know this, but they don't deserve them. Lets be real here and honest here without feeling we are
belittling Dunne.

The world of boxing is corrupt and convoluted and all over the place.
Dunne got his shot at a version of a version and he took it, congrats and now lets be honest about it. I said fro the start that he didn't deserve a shot.

He has taken his chance, but at least lets say it as it is

My opinion hasn't changed, you'll note it was the same beforehand.

If he was challening Vasquez for the Super-Bantamweight Championship of the World, I would expect him to be at least genuine top 10.

However when we're talking WBC, IBF, WBO, WBA Super-Champion and WBA regular title and so many fighter were unavailable then Dunne did deserve his shot. He was top 25-30 in the World, and not every defence is against the best available contender(that's what mandatories are for).
Remember this was the WBA regular title, and he deserved and opportunity to fight for that title.

sligobhoy67 · 23-03-2009 3:38pm

that settles it - I am going to do a piece for British Boxing New entitled - "How next for Bernard" and I am going to do a bit fo a preamble and then go through about six to ten boxers who should be on the radar. So far I am going to outline the pros and cons of a figth with Kiko, Rendall, Celestino, Cordoba rematch, Poonsawat Kratingdaenggym, Olivier Lontchi and Jaunma

do people think I am looking at the right people who will be the options, does anyone else want to add anyone.

mark renton · 23-03-2009 3:41pm

Hey BigEars - I didnt post that

maxxie · 23-03-2009 3:45pm

Deserving or not, that is boxing! He got the opportunity and took it with both hands!

He has the title now so lets look to the future!

As much as I love bernard,putting him in with ponce de leon, vasquez, marquez,caballero is going to end ugly! Will be painfull to watch,never mind what he will feel in the ring!

Credible opponents who he could make defences against definately are MUNROE and the former european champ MALUDROTTU. Both lacking in firepower but still ranked high!

As for seeking a revenge rematch with kiko martinez, I dont know, maybe for the payday but I wouldnt be worried about it hanging over his head! Look at Israel Vasquez, he suffered a horrible ko in the first against Ulises Flores! A lesser fighter than kiko, and ya never hear anything about it!

Big Ears · 23-03-2009 4:14pm

john47832 wrote: »

Hey BigEars - I didnt post that

Sorry, other peoples poor quoting skills earlier in the thread caused that.

Sligo, I wouldn't bother with Juan Manuel Lopez, neither teams management will either consider that fight and Dunne could only take it if he dropped his WBA title.

If you want another guy who could be a possiblity I'd go with either Mayhar Monshipour9who'll probably re enter the WBA rankings soon) or Antonio Escalante.

mark renton · 23-03-2009 4:17pm

maxxie wrote: »

As much as I love bernard,putting him in with ponce de leon, vasquez, marquez,caballero is going to end ugly! Will be painfull to watch,never mind what he will feel in the ring!

A lot of people thought the Cordoba would end ugly for Bernard... I would love to see him fight Ponce De Leon, could he get beaten - of course, would it make him a better fighter? A lot better than fighting Kiko Martinez and trying to keep out of sight of that right lump hammer for 12 rounds

Of course I'm leaving out the financial element because none of his money is going into my pocket

Consider this -

He fights Martinez and loses - what next? IMO retirement

He fights Ponce De Leon / Or another big name and loses - there would be more encouragement for him to continue as he is in with the big boys and would potentially improve as a boxer

maxxie · 23-03-2009 4:25pm

john47832 wrote: »

A lot of people thought the Cordoba would end ugly for Bernard... I would love to see him fight Ponce De Leon, could he get beaten - of course, would it make him a better fighter? A lot better than fighting Kiko Martinez and trying to keep out of sight of that right lump hammer for 12 rounds

Of course I'm leaving out the financial element because none of his money is going into my pocket

Consider this -

He fights Martinez and loses - what next? IMO retirement

He fights Ponce De Leon / Or another big name and loses - there would be more encouragement for him to continue as he is in with the big boys and would potentially improve as a boxer

Yeh mate good point, he has alot more to lose fighting kiko again. Certainly out of the top fighters in the division de leon would be the best choice for bernard. Who do we use to prepare him for stepping in with these guys?

f1dan · 23-03-2009 4:26pm

I was going to suggest Molitor as an opponent but then found out he's not in the WBA top 15. Poonsawat seems the logical next step

Big Ears · 23-03-2009 4:27pm

john47832 wrote: »

A lot of people thought the Cordoba would end ugly for Bernard... I would love to see him fight Ponce De Leon, could he get beaten - of course, would it make him a better fighter? A lot better than fighting Kiko Martinez and trying to keep out of sight of that right lump hammer for 12 rounds

Of course I'm leaving out the financial element because none of his money is going into my pocket

Consider this -

He fights Martinez and loses - what next? IMO retirement

He fights Ponce De Leon / Or another big name and loses - there would be more encouragement for him to continue as he is in with the big boys and would potentially improve as a boxer

If you're going to put Dunne in against a huge puncher who has a great workrate and is very aggressive then it may aswell be Vasquez. Might aswell gain something from taking that massive risk.

Ponce De Leon hits a lot harder than Cordoba.

Too much power........

Munroe is a much better fight than Martinez, because Munroe punches nowhere near as hard and it would gain Bernard much more respect Worldwide. I'm not a huge fan of the Ring, but they do have Munroe #9 in their Super-Bantamweight rankings and to most fans Worldwide that's where they'll rate Munroe because of it.

walshb · 23-03-2009 4:32pm

Big Ears wrote: »

My opinion hasn't changed, you'll note it was the same beforehand.

If he was challening Vasquez for the Super-Bantamweight Championship of the World, I would expect him to be at least genuine top 10.

However when we're talking WBC, IBF, WBO, WBA Super-Champion and WBA regular title and so many fighter were unavailable then Dunne did deserve his shot. He was top 25-30 in the World, and not every defence is against the best available contender(that's what mandatories are for).
Remember this was the WBA regular title, and he deserved and opportunity to fight for that title.

Exactly, 'that title,' doesn't sound all that great when you put
it like that.

I can't stand this mess that boxing has got itself into.

They are not happy with 4 bloody titles, now they are introducing
versions of those titles and sory, but no matter what way you put it, Dunne did win a version of the WBA title, a watered down version. Caballero is the real WBA world champion, Dunne is holding a watered down version of this.
That's fact and cannot be overlooked.

What Dunne showed ME, just speaking for me, was a better fighter, a tougher and cuter and more gutsy fighter, a cunning and more determined and focused fighter.

The official stance was that he was fighting for a 'world title'
Now, loking deeper, this title was a version of Caballero's real title.

I don't give a **** who it is, this is hard to ignore. I cannot get as excited about our new world champion as others. Call me cynical if you like. I call it striving for standards.

I am excited that Dunne showed me so much. That thrilled me and now I am
so looking forward to him fighting again. To see Bernard so hurt in the 5th and on the ropes with ten secs to go and Cordoba pummelling away and then
the ref jumping in as the bell sounded, and Dunne swinging a shot in defiance and real guts, that was amazing. He was amazing in that caption. My favorite part of the bout. The look of determination and balls on Bernard's face was
truly heroic.

I give him all that and more. Now, you want me to say the opponent was
a world champion or world cahmpon material, sorry, I didn't see it at all.
I saw a good fighter who was awkward, and hard and tough, but who didn't fight like a real world champion. He freaking gassed in 11 rds and it wasn't ike he was in a major war. He wasn't being hit with dynamite.

maxxie · 23-03-2009 4:35pm

f1dan wrote: »

I was going to suggest Molitor as an opponent but then found out he's not in the WBA top 15. Poonsawat seems the logical next step

Molitor is coming off being knocked out in the fourth against caballero. Still a dangerous opponent! Watched him for years! I hate being pessimistic but I think he would have too much for bernard. He is slick and hits hard. Destroyed Michael Hunter a couple of years back.

walshb · 23-03-2009 4:35pm

I would suggest Dunne go for Munroe or Garcia or someone rated lower.
Kiko is the fight I want to see Bernard avenge. It would be dangerous, but if Dunne can improve that defence more, he can win

BTW, Molitor will get KO'd against Ruiz in June

f1dan · 23-03-2009 4:39pm

Can someone clarify, does Dunne's first defence have to be a mandatory? Also how many voluntaries can he take before a mandatory?

walshb · 23-03-2009 4:40pm

It's based on a time frame. He can fight who he wants within a frame and then a mandatory is invoked. I think! Big??

T-K-O · 23-03-2009 4:41pm

walshb wrote: »

Exactly, 'that title,' doesn't sound all that great when you put
it like that.

I can't stand this mess that boxing has got itself into.

They are not happy with 4 bloody titles, now they are introducing
versions of those titles and sory, but no matter what way you put it, Dunne did win a version of the WBA title, a watered down version. Caballero is the real WBA world champion, Dunne is holding a watered down version of this.
That's fact and cannot be overlooked.

What Dunne showed ME, just speaking for me, was a better fighter, a tougher and cuter and more gutsy fighter, a cunning and more determined and focused fighter.

The official stance was that he was fighting for a 'world title'
Now, loking deeper, this title was a version of Caballero's real title.

I don't give a **** who it is, this is hard to ignore. I cannot get as excited about our new world champion as others. Call me cynical if you like. I call it striving for standards.

I am excited that Dunne showed me so much. That thrilled me and now I am
so looking forward to him fighting again. To see Bernard so hurt in the 5th and on the ropes with ten secs to go and Cordoba pummelling away and then
the ref jumping in as the bell sounded, and Dunne swinging a shot in defiance and real guts, that was amazing. He was amazing in that caption. My favorite part of the bout. The look of determination and balls on Bernard's face was
truly heroic.

I give him all that and more. Now, you want me to say the opponent was
a world champion or world cahmpon material, sorry, I didn't see it at all.
I saw a good fighter who was awkward, and hard and tough, but who didn't fight like a real world champion. He freaking gassed in 11 rds and it wasn't ike he was in a major war. He wasn't being hit with dynamite.

OK I will.... funny you didn't come to this conclusion before the fight.

I to hate the fact that there are so many belts I would be in favor of just one but then again I still go looking for pots of gold everytime I see a rainbow.

Dont forget this guy did beat Caballero

Did you miss my while I was excommunicated ?

BTW that was my favorite part of the fight also..

Big Ears · 23-03-2009 4:41pm

walshb wrote: »

Exactly, 'that title,' doesn't sound all that great when you put
it like that.

I can't stand this mess that boxing has got itself into.

They are not happy with 4 bloody titles, now they are introducing
versions of those titles and sory, but no matter what way you put it, Dunne did win a version of the WBA title, a watered down version. Caballero is the real WBA world champion, Dunne is holding a watered down version of this.
That's fact and cannot be overlooked.

What Dunne showed ME, just speaking for me, was a better fighter, a tougher and cuter and more gutsy fighter, a cunning and more determined and focused fighter.

The official stance was that he was fighting for a 'world title'
Now, loking deeper, this title was a version of Caballero's real title.

I don't give a **** who it is, this is hard to ignore. I cannot get as excited about our new world champion as others. Call me cynical if you like. I call it striving for standards.

I am excited that Dunne showed me so much. That thrilled me and now I am
so looking forward to him fighting again. To see Bernard so hurt in the 5th and on the ropes with ten secs to go and Cordoba pummelling away and then
the ref jumping in as the bell sounded, and Dunne swinging a shot in defiance and real guts, that was amazing. He was amazing in that caption. My favorite part of the bout. The look of determination and balls on Bernard's face was
truly heroic.

I give him all that and more. Now, you want me to say the opponent was
a world champion or world cahmpon material, sorry, I didn't see it at all.
I saw a good fighter who was awkward, and hard and tough, but who didn't fight like a real world champion. He freaking gassed in 11 rds and it wasn't ike he was in a major war. He wasn't being hit with dynamite.

It doesn't but you can't say Bernard wasn't deserving of the shot when you look at it like that either.

The funny thing is if Caballero is ever stripped of the IBF title he loses his WBA one aswell, because the Super-Champion title is reliant on holding another belt, and Bernard would become sole WBA champion. This is what happened to Juan Manuel Marquez in the past and he had to go in as the challenger for Chris John's WBA title.

Funnily enough Juan Manuel Marquez also became the first fighter to become WBA Super-Champion without winning another belt to do it.

The recent Juan Diaz v Juan Manuel Marquez fight was scheduled for just the IBO title. But then the WBO put it for their vacant Lightweight title and the WBA made it for their Super-Champion title even though Paulus Moses already held the regular title. Juan Manuel Marquez didn't pay the IBO sanctioning fees btw, only Diaz did hence Marquez didn't win the IBO title.

Now, Marquez does have 2 World titles, and would cease to be WBA Super-Champion if he lost his WBO belt, but it really is silly nowdays.

Other than being the true champion, it's who you beat not how you do it. I don't see Caballero's titles making him any greater than Bernard, just who he's beaten along the way.

Cordoba was genuuine World class for me, and fought like it. He'd have stopped Rey Bautista if he fought him Saturday night for instance imo

T-K-O · 23-03-2009 4:44pm

maxxie wrote: »

Molitor is coming off being knocked out in the fourth against caballero. Still a dangerous opponent! Watched him for years! I hate being pessimistic but I think he would have too much for bernard. He is slick and hits hard. Destroyed Michael Hunter a couple of years back.

I thought Molitor looked good until the Caballero fight - he was awful.

Next for Dunne

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