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Wimmin jokes - funny or fallacy?
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Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 49073
Silverfish wrote: »Well, I could write all day on this topic, but it appears I've lost my sense of humour along with you
An interesting thing happened in work the other day though.
Something important happened, and there was a few people up in arms.
Two of the lads were giving out YARDS in a meeting, ranting, raving, totally losing the head. That was grand. I got a bit riled up (sitting the other side of the camp, as it were) and in order to get my point across, raised my voice to shout over the ongoing yelling, in a 'WELL IF YOU JUST READ the list there it shows clearly yadda....'
The general consensus was the two lads are 'real go-getters, assertive, demanding, etc etc' where as I was asked if it was 'my time of the month'.
When I took issue with that, it was 'Ah have a ****ing sense of humour' *cue twenty lads laughing their heads off*
So what I learned was, if a man does something like that, he's looked up to. If a woman does something like that, she's a 'looper'.
Like I posted somewhere before:
When you're in the minority, but each one person from the majority decides to make one, or two 'throwaway' comments, they all add up.
e.g I work with 20 or so blokes. I'm the only female. For my first week, each of those guys made one 'throwaway' generic 'women! pfft' joke.
For them, it was one.
For me it was twenty. Times five.
Times 2 years.
So its just not funny any more.
I understand exactly how you feel, I'm in a team of 22 with two other women, and I've found the only comeback can often be an equally cutting response back, but to be honest, just can't be bothered. I work with one complete neanderthal tho who can occasionally come out with seriously inappropriate comments and he's skated pretty close to the wind in terms of being reported a couple of times.
I do have a mate who manages a team of 20 odd blokes, and one day they were bemoaning the lack of women on their team. She asked them why they thought this was the case, and when given their opinion that women wouldn't be able to cope in their job, replied "Lads, have you looked at the top of the departmental org chart recently?" Cue sheepish grins from said blokes when they realised what they'd said and to whom.The name for this behaviour is sexual harrassment. Is there a workplace policy on bullying etc? It is easy to put up with it - but in the end it wears you down. Get back at them by never losing the cool, but request clarification on any perceived put down. Those workmates sound like the kind of chumps who probably would not be able to visualise the insulting statement if a non-white non-Irish national was substituted every time women/'girls' were the target.
Tbh, I would have the opinion that in the case of a lot of blokes who behave like this, firstly they wouldn't see it as harassment/bullying, and secondly it would most likely have a seriously negative impact on the woman reporting them, she still has to work with them, or find alternative employment. It's one area of employment law that is a minefield in terms of resolving as often it has to be dealt with in situ and it can result in people walking on eggshells.
E.g. I had a male boss years ago, who sat a particular way in his cubicle, so that he could "check out the good looking girls who were on the way to the bathroom" in his computer monitor (I kid you not) and he happily informed his female staff of this (maybe we were exceptionally ugly
and not work checking out ) Anyway this bloke was a complete out and out bully, and a sexist twat, myself and another woman reported to him, I ended up suffering from 15 minute bouts of vomiting every morning when I woke up for work and he was going to be there (if he was off, I didn't) ended up with severe stress that caused me to become physically ill, (requiring referral to a neurologist and two months of tests) and the other woman ended up ill also through stress.
He finally ended up ill himself and was out of work for long enough that the Department head at the time commented to the replacement manager how much better the quality of the work from his team was. So everything came out and was dealt with via the "anti-harrassment/bullying" policy.
It took SIX months, partly due to management inertia and fear of dealing with the situation. Even worse, it involved sitting down with the bully in unsupervised meetings and "discussing" how his behaviour affected his staff.
Finally he was removed from people management responsibilities, but we still had to work with him, and it remained very strained.
And yes, I could have reported him sooner, management could have dealt with things better, the meetings could have been supervised, but imo far too many people/managers/companies would rather not have to deal with this situation, the policies are there, but more so as lipservice than a reality.
Coincidentally I've come across three cases in my career of men using anti bullying policies also, and in each case they ended up departing the relevant companies on very bad terms.0 -
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Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 49073
The idea that guys are more rational or stable than women is a load of crap.
Imo it is too.
I've had more than one/two/three occasions to ask a boss/colleague if a male colleague was ok, in all instances there were personal issues affecting that individual's work performance, and personally as a manager I've taken blokes aside and listened to their problems/seen them cry about how their personal lives are affecting all of their life if that makes sense.
Whilst I listened, and did my best to help, or went to lunch with a boss who wanted to talk about someone's difficulties, I've never put it down to hormones, either privately or by publicly ridiculing someone.
Everyone regardless of gender, has issues to deal with, be it the death of a beloved pet, a family bereavement, moving house, marital breakdown, a kid not doing well at school, depression, grief, whatever.
Some people are more private than others, and might confide in a manager as they have to, to facilitate leave, then struggle on through their work day as best they can.
I have never, ever, ever, in 12 years of working in male dominated environments, heard someone ask a bloke if he's hormones are in overdrive, but I've heard far cruder comments in relation to women.
So yes, it's a load of crap as you say that men are more stable than women, but it's also true, that the fact we menstruate gives men an easy excuse for what they percieve as "hormonal" behaviour on the part of women.But I also recognise that there are a whole range of psychological and social problems affecting my own gender too, many of which are directly related to the issues women face.
Absolutely, the suicide rate amongst young males in Ireland is one extreme example I can think of, and it's something that deserves attention.For this reason, I'm not too keen on the idea of feminism, because although I haven't done much reading on the subject, it seems a bit one sided to me. It seems pro-women rather than an attempt to understand both genders and why we view each other the way we do.
And here we will disagree, personally I think feminism is about affording equal rights and choices, not which gender is better than the other 0 -
The moon effects everyone on this planet. It was Thaed who cottoned me onto that one. What with us lot being made up predominantly of fluid and all. Werewolf, anyone??
Men are definitely as moody as women but don't tell anyone that, it's a secret.
Ya see I don't get what men, who use these 'jokes', are trying to achieve other than trying to demean the person it's being said at. I mean what is there to achieve? It, seriously, doesn't make any sense to me.
Thankfully in my workplace I've never experienced such juvenile behaviour. In the beginning, I do generally have to force the point with some people (generally men) that I do know what I'm doing. Once I've gotten over the initial hurdle they know not to question me though.
If someone did behave in such a manner towards me I hope that the deathly silence and sheer look on my face would give them indication enough that they are anything but funny. That's the ideal reaction of course but I'm thankful to not have experienced such nonsense.
From the, apparently, hormonally psychotic and incapable,
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Blue_Lagoon wrote: »Does anyone like being placed into a category at the sacrifice of their individuality, be they female or male? Sweeping generalisations about gender, or physiology, or whatever do that, are unfair to the person, and make an unwitting fool out of the joker.
Honestly I don't care what people make fun of me about, and believe me, there's plenty to choose from. 0 -
excellent thread.
a lot of good posts and points.
personally, for me, it would all depend on context. most of my mates are male, so every now and then, i do get a sexist type comment, which is meant entirely in a jokey context, and i know that it's just a joke, i'll usually laugh, tell them to get fucked, or attempt a come back. (usually easiest to laugh and tell them where to go...). it is just a laugh though, same way they take the piss out of me for being irish. in no way meant to be offensive, just a laugh. in all fairness, the poor bastards (particularly the one who'se most likely to make the joke) have been there as shoulders to cry on/vent at and chill out with on the occasion* where my hormones do go a little crazy and they'll never say a word about it then.
if i was to get it from someone at work though, it is just not acceptable and i'd have absolutely no problems in telling them that and making a genuine complaint if it was repeated.
*possibly 4 times a year, a combination of sickness, tiredness and that time of the month, do send me a little cuckoo.
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I always find it very interesting when topics like this come up. I seem to be the only person on boards who works in a female dominated environment.
Before i get too far into things i will just say that as far as I am concerned...EVERYTHING is funny and fair game. Different people have different rules and until you have a good idea what someones line is you leave things be but the basic truth for me is that everything is funny because a smile is always better than a tear.
Anyways...Silverfish wrote: »When you're in the minority, but each one person from the majority decides to make one, or two 'throwaway' comments, they all add up.
I would agree with this, to a large degree. I work in a heavily female dominated environment. I am the only guy on my team, in my Dept I am one of very few males. I am leaving at the end of the this week and if i went into some of the **** that "women" have been saying to me in work recently I'm sure it would raise a few eyebrows. That said, i am taking it as all being jokes, as opposed to implying anything specific about my gender.
Now then, i have no doubt people will be happy to dismiss everything I say because i am a bloke, but **** em.
I will allow someone the line that this type of joke is not funny ONLY if they can say, under whatever oath they feel is most important, that they never make similar jokes about anybody else, for any reason.
As you can see, if you think about it, I would say 100% of people can't do that. Sometimes things just set us off, sometimes we ourselve speak without thinking about the impact on the people who will hear the words.But my opinion has changed rather radically since then, and I've realised that feminism is less about setting underwear on fire and more about recognising what I, as a woman, am entitled to given that I can do many (most?) things equally as good if not better than any given man and the kind of treatment that I deserve as another human being.
With regard to Feminism....i think the above is a sure sign of an advancement of your train of thought about Feminism g'em! That said, i still see the above as almost being the problem with Feminism...in my opinion. You are not entitled to ANYTHING because you are a woman my dear, you are entitled to EVERYTHING because you are a PERSON.
It does matter what you can do better or worse than any bloke....it only matters that you do these things becuase you want to and are entitled to do so for the same reason.
I think the last part "as another human being" is the part the should be hinged on.
The interesting thing is, your anger only got up because it was a MALE Mod who said this to you, is there anychance that this male Mod wasn't talking to a woman, but rather to a person?
So, to sum up. Yes, things are just funny and often times the upset person may be interpreting something that simply is not there.
Any time in the past we would have given each other **** about the "failings" of our genders we were doing it as people i think, not as a man and a woman silently at battle. 0 -
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