Wimmin jokes - funny or fallacy?

Nevyn

http://chronicle.com/review/brainstorm/barreca/when-is-a-joke-not-a-joke-part-one?utm_source=cr&utm_medium=en

When Is a Joke Not Just a Joke? by Gina Barreca

What is the best way to respond to sexual harassment disguised as humor?

Let me admit that I collect great responses to bullying remarks the way some women clip coupons. These rejoinders are useful, free, and they can help you save what counts: time, energy and sanity. My current favorites may be apocryphal but they are nonetheless instructive for that. The way that fables are invented and yet contain truth, so do these. So that while it’s true that we can’t always come up with the perfect answer, at least we should set up as possible heroines those women who have.

For example, after Liz Carpenter worked for the Johnson administration she wrote a book about her experiences working at the White House. The book was out for a while, did pretty well. One evening she met Arthur Schlesinger at a cocktail party. He came over to her and smiled and said “Like your book Liz. Who wrote it for you?”

Now, clearly dear Arthur meant this as his little joke. If she had stammered and blushed, he would win the point. He could then say, “see, you just can’t joke around with these women.” If she’d pounded her fist on the table and threatened to call a lawyer, he could say the same thing.

Instead what Carpenter did was to say in response, “Glad you liked it, Arthur. Who read it to you?”

All she did was take his format and adapt it for her own purposes.

Now, joking at the joker’s expense is equivalent to going out to dinner with a con artist who expects to stick you with the bill and refusing to be his victim — whether that means calling him on his game or walking out of the restaurant before he does. When we find ourselves in this sort of situation, someone else has begun a game they expect to win at our expense.

We are allowed to prevent this from happening. We know that. Sort of.

The trouble is, most of us have been brought up to be so concerned with putting the welfare of others before our own that we can’t let ourselves come back with a great comeback. Most of the women I know laugh at Carpenter’s line but then catch themselves staring at the following concerns: What if Arthur Scheslinger is secretly illiterate? What if his father is dyslexic? What if his kid needs Hooked on Phonics? Then we feel like we should volunteer for the Literacy Action committee four nights a week as penance for uncharitable thoughts.

But I firmly believe that the male jokers do not worry about the female jokee’s response. And this doesn’t mean we have to become vicious versions of the worst male stereotypes; but it is an illustration of the expectation embedded in our culture that you can say what you want to a woman because she’s not going to talk back. Freud’s framework for the effectiveness of the smutty joke, for example, rests on the twinning of female shame and silence. If the female onlooker refuses to supply both of these reactions, the jokes fall flat. In the case of nasty stories, this is a good thing.

Then the next round begins. Oh sure, it’s easy for a secure and successful woman who already knows the man baiting her to come up with a snappy response, but what about the rest of us? What if you never even use a word like snappy? What happens if the only response you can think of is one that makes you sound like a whining nerd or a shrill hysteric? Because we fear exactly these two possibilities, we gulp down embarrassment and rage and remain silent. But we wish we hadn’t.

Everyone has a story. Once the subject is raised, usually in an all-woman group, there is an astonishing collective and bottomless desire to recite quite simply and in alphabetical order every instance of intellectual and sexual harassment we’ve ever experienced.


As George Eliot pointed out, with her signature understatement, “a difference of taste in jokes is a great strain on the affections.”

Here’s my story about the first time I remember, consciously, the joke-not-a-joke business being played out in my professional life. I’d certainly encountered enough of it in other areas, but somehow I’d convinced myself that academics, scholars, and literary types wouldn’t do this sort of thing.

I was very young.

On the first day of my first MLA — I was just starting my Ph.D. — I encountered an academic so well known that non-grad-school, normal people would have recognized him from his appearance on various upscale television programs and from his picture in newspapers and magazines. He and I were in the elevator — and it was one of those mysteriously long MLA elevator rides.

At that point, I was still wearing my scarf from New Hall, Cambridge, in much the same way that Linus carries his security blanket. I was trying to be a Good Girl and Be Nice (projects I have abandoned since as impossible). I smiled and said hello.

With a sly and knowing look, the distinguished gentleman said “You might look fetching in your boyfriend’s scarf, but you have no right to wear it.”

He said it in that way we recognize without being sure how to define it: The line was somewhere between a flirtation and a slap. Maybe he liked a combination of both, who knows? The effect was instant: I blushed (not my usual m.o.) and stuttered out some devastatingly assertive line like “Um, well, um, I really did go to school in England. I went to Cambridge.”

To which he replied, without making eye contact, and without any perceptible warmth in his voice, as the elevator doors shut behind him: “You sure don’t look it.”

Now what I am supposed to think?

This is an insult but he thinks it’s a compliment? It’s just an insult, straight up, no mixer?

I felt ridiculous. I guessed that it meant short busty Italian women were not supposed to get beyond the seventh grade. I guessed I should stop wearing the scarf. I guessed that, quite correctly in this case, he figured he’d get the last word because I’d be intimidated by him, confused by what I was hearing, and pinched into silence.

He didn’t have to think these things consciously. He knew them the way he knew instinctively, let’s say, which books were worthless without reading them.

Those three elements — intimidation, confusion and fear — keep many of us from talking back when it’s appropriate. I want to argue that one of the most appropriate times for talking back is when someone is using humor to ridicule, undercut, or shame you — especially (but not only) when their joking has to do with gender issues.

I wish I had come up with an answer, but I didn’t say anything as the doors closed behind me.

I vowed, however, that it would never happen again.

One of my friends, a distinguished full professor who also happens to wear red suits and be a tall blond, was once interviewed about her work for the labor union. The host of the program met her with the comment “I never imagined you’d be so feminine.” She was startled, like a horse facing a snake at a crossroads. She didn’t want to go on, she didn’t want to retreat, but she was certainly conscious of the danger. So in the same bright, friendly and surprised tone, she said “And I didn’t expect you to be so masculine!” By simply turning the line around, she made him hear his own remark. No doubt he meant his surprise to be a compliment, but the subtext to his remark goes something like “Oh, I thought all successful women looked like B-movie prison matrons.” The interviewer’s little joke has big assumptions behind it.

It’s these assumptions we need to address.

So what are our options? Refusing to be silent is, I think, the first step. Silence and apparent humility have not worked as well as we might like against hostility cross-dressed as humor.

amacachi

“Like your book Liz. Who wrote it for you?”

Is that meant to be an example of sexual harassment?

coffee_cake

Someone humour me and tell me what WOULD have been a good comeback to that scarf thing, because I can't think of one :pac:

Pherekydes

bluewolf wrote: »

Someone humour me and tell me what WOULD have been a good comeback to that scarf thing, because I can't think of one :pac:

"And you've no right to be wearing your wife's <insert clothing item>"

/shrugs

Silverfish

bluewolf wrote: »

Someone humour me and tell me what WOULD have been a good comeback to that scarf thing, because I can't think of one :pac:

"D'aww, did somebody not get into a good college then? Awww' then pat him on the head.

Of course, the normal procedure is to think of the witty retort three hours later, at home, then think 'Omg I should have said that!!' but in all subsequent retellings of the story, you include that bit like you said it.

Thats what I do anyway

Nevyn

"I would have said my bf is not entitled to wear it I am."
followed by
"Well I guess many things have changed from when you graduted yourself
these days Cambridge graduates come in all shapes, sizes and genders".

Nevyn

The things is like the senior faculty memeber people who makes these jokes are not
usually people we can call on thier bullshít or be snipey back at them due to thier
having influence, sway, seniority or authority over us.

Often if we do retaliate or call them on it they will try and turn it back on us
and then we are the bitch or far to sensitive or have no sense of humour or
are being inappropriate.

amacachi

Were my male lecturers in college sexually harrassing me when they made fun of how curly my hair was and how it was like Marge Simpson's?

coffee_cake

Silverfish wrote: »

"D'aww, did somebody not get into a good college then? Awww' then pat him on the head.

Of course, the normal procedure is to think of the witty retort three hours later, at home, then think 'Omg I should have said that!!' but in all subsequent retellings of the story, you include that bit like you said it.

Thats what I do anyway

Yeah
that or look at them funny, often works

I guess I'd just have to stick with a retort to "well you sure don't look like it" with "well you sure don't look like an idiot/a$$hole/etc"

I love non-insult insults >.>

Thaed: yeah but silence can be a useful tool in certain ways, depending on how you're holding yourself and looking at them
Letting a stupid remark hang there in complete silence gives them more time to be embarrassed they said it and let it sink in ^^ [for example anyway]

Wibbs

Silverfish wrote: »

"D'aww, did somebody not get into a good college then? Awww' then pat him on the head.

that would work like a charm.

Thaedydal wrote:

"I would have said my bf is not entitled to wear it I am."/"Well I guess many things have changed from when you graduted yourself
these days Cambridge graduates come in all shapes, sizes and genders"

That less so IMHO. He knows he has the power so he would not be troubled or threatened or caught off guard by that and would write you off. Or come back with, "yes it's clear things have changed and not for the better", while looking you up and down. Yes he's being horribly antagonistic and bullying, but if you come back like that he'll instantly dismiss you even more. The male mind eh? go figure, but as I reckon IMHO that's how he'll take it. TBH that's how I would take it. Honestly hand on heart I would throw my eyes up to heaven. Why? Because you wouldn't have come back with a better slag on the same level of "humour" I think. Though equally I would not have ever been that downright twattish to a stranger in a lift, so it wouldn't come up.

Often if we do retaliate or call them on it they will try and turn it back on us
and then we are the bitch or far to sensitive or have no sense of humour or
are being inappropriate.

Oh yes his power trip is everything to do with it. But yes I agree he would likely think those things. The power thing would also have a different dynamic if an well built guy was in the lift in place of the woman. If the big bloke came back with a smart answer, he would likely respect him, because he would also be threatened. If the big guy said "excuse me, what did you just say?" he'd likely kack himself.

Men are regularly quite antagonistic/agressive/bitchy even, though cloaked in humour, with each other. Even to the point were we don't even notice. Not all men, not all of the time, but moreso than women IME. It's often a game too. I see it with my mates. We love each other like brothers and all that, but I've had women think that we dislike each other or that there's some underlying issue or even a fight about to kick off. To the degree that if a woman is introduced into the equation we'll tone that stuff right back. Ditto if a strange bloke came along. Until we gauged what he was like.

It's a game of oneupmanship, that gets switched off if something serious comes up. So a mate could come in and sit down in the pub and he will be mercilessly slagged over his haircut, jacket whatever and he'll come back with equal vigour(he would be expected to). Two mates in particular are masters of this and are a riot to listen too. But if one comes along and lets say his GF left him, then instant support mode.


I do think in some ways men and women as a generalisation of course approach humour differently. I think that's why women are not seen as obviously "funny" in general as men(though there are some seriously funny women). There was one theory recently that a woman researcher looked at testosterone levels in objectively funny men and found they were higher. She also found as men aged they generally got less funny as those levels declined. If you look at standup, a lot of it has a lot of aggression behind it. Womens humour tends to be less so and is more situational and freind family, lover relationship driven. It's also more inclusive. Her theory was that male humour evolved as a way for younger men to show their social prowess, quick wit and social confidence to other men and women. Maybe?

And maybe that why a lot of men don't see or realise that their "humour", acceptable to each other is not acceptable in the same way to women.

coffee_cake

Don't worry wibbs, my retort would have put him in his place!

Nevyn

Wibbs wrote: »

that would work like a charm.
That less so IMHO. He knows he has the power so he would not be troubled or threatened or caught off guard by that and would write you off. Or come back with, "yes it's clear things have changed and not for the better", while looking you up and down. Yes he's being horribly antagonistic and bullying, but if you come back like that he'll instantly dismiss you even more. The male mind eh? go figure, but as I reckon IMHO that's how he'll take it. TBH that's how I would take it. Honestly hand on heart I would throw my eyes up to heaven. Why? Because you wouldn't have come back with a better slag on the same level of "humour" I think. Though equally I would not have ever been that downright twattish to a stranger in a lift, so it wouldn't come up.

IN that case it is done the done thing to slag back and there is already a
pop at how old he is in that and if it was said " and not for the better"
my reply would have been " that is a matter of opinion" while smiling.
It is possible to stand up to such comments while not locking horns.

Wibbs wrote: »

Men are regularly quite antagonistic/agressive/bitchy even, though cloaked in humour, with each other. Even to the point were we don't even notice. Not all men, not all of the time, but moreso than women IME. It's often a game too. I see it with my mates. We love each other like brothers and all that, but I've had women think that we dislike each other or that there's some underlying issue or even a fight about to kick off. To the degree that if a woman is introduced into the equation we'll tone that stuff right back. Ditto if a strange bloke came along. Until we gauged what he was like.

It's a game of oneupmanship, that gets switched off if something serious comes up. So a mate could come in and sit down in the pub and he will be mercilessly slagged over his haircut, jacket whatever and he'll come back with equal vigour(he would be expected to). Two mates in particular are masters of this and are a riot to listen too. But if one comes along and lets say his GF left him, then instant support mode.

Some women can hack that, I know I am one and am well able to play
that game when permitted but often a deft put down is accepted by
the lads but not by a girl even if she is for the most part being treated
as one of the lads. The thing is the work place is no longer a lads only zone
and the dynamics have to shift and change when it has be predominantly
or female.

Wibbs wrote: »

And maybe that why a lot of men don't see or realise that their "humour", acceptable to each other is not acceptable in the same way to women.

Odd but yet they are often quick to point out and show their dislike when a woman take part and plays the game and wins.

Wibbs

Thaedydal wrote: »

Odd but yet they are often quick to point out and show their dislike when a woman take part and plays the game and wins.

Oh true, but I've also seen it where a woman, while knowing the vocab of male humour and even most of the grammar, misses the nuance and it falls flat. Usually by going too far with the joke, or stepping into nastiness. That said a guy will get slapped down for that too.

t-ha

Man - depressing thread. I thought I had a sense of humour but it turns out I've been sexually harassing everyone!

Oh well... I guess the main thing is that I'm comfortable with it...

Wibbs

I've found when I or others have actually been funny, regardless of the subject, I've never been accused of harassing anybody.

t-ha

Wibbs wrote: »

I've found when I or others have actually been funny, regardless of the subject, I've never been accused of harassing anybody.

...according to who? Sense of humour is completely subjective, and in my subjective opinion... yours sucks!


zing!

Silverfish

t-ha wrote: »

...according to who? Sense of humour is completely subjective, and in my subjective opinion... yours sucks!


zing!

It's possible to be funny without making it at someone else's expense.
But it requires some ability and actual humour, unlike slagging someone over something they can't help or change, and making them feel less of a human being for it.

coffee_cake

Silverfish wrote: »

But it requires some ability and actual humour, unlike slagging someone over something they can't help or change, and making them feel less of a human being for it.

Says the fish :pac:

Wibbs

t-ha wrote: »

...according to who? Sense of humour is completely subjective, and in my subjective opinion... yours sucks!


zing!

Actually "funny" is pretty consistent, even across cultures. The details and cultural references may vary, but the mechanism is pretty consistent. Some ancient roman jokes are still humourous. Go to the deepest jungle and find a tribe there and throw a custard pie in the mush of someone(the more supercillious the better) and they'll likely laugh like anyone else. The funniest people work all over the place. Eddie Izzard has done gigs in France and Germany and can't even speak the language fluently, so while it can be subjective, it's not completely subjective. Indeed in keeping with my original point, the more objective the joke the less people will take offence.

dfx-

Wibbs wrote: »

And maybe that why a lot of men don't see or realise that their "humour", acceptable to each other is not acceptable in the same way to women.

This doesn't mean that their humour should be expunged from existence in presence of women. We all have to adapt..

It doesn't mean it suddenly doesn't stay humour in the presence of women, it doesn't suddenly become offensive. Some people take it that way and I know two people who are pre-disposed to taking it offensively. It remains humour, but to the wrong audience. Like Lee Evans or Jimmy Carr to me

[Disclaimer: I haven't read the entire thread because it is another dangerous one and I post with trepidation]

Wibbs

dfx- wrote: »

This doesn't mean that their humour should be expunged from existence in presence of women. We all have to adapt..

Oh I agree, but it comes down to plain old common sense too. I mean something hilarious over a few pints woould go down like a lead balloon at a funeral. It's a contextual thing, with both the circumstance and the person. There are things I would joke about with women(and men) that I wouldn't joke about in a work environment say. Equally I'll tear the píss out of my female mates, but wouldn't dream of same with a woman I didn't know. Same with guys I didn't know actually.

WindSock

bluewolf wrote: »

Someone humour me and tell me what WOULD have been a good comeback to that scarf thing, because I can't think of one :pac:

I would have said ' So's your face!'

or

'That makes two of us, eh?' (Followed by a non flirtatious wink. And perhaps a nudge.)

But in reality I probably would have given my pretending to know what your talking about but not actually having a clue because I am thinking about shopping smile.

Acacia

Wibbs wrote: »

I do think we all carry this subconscious thing re the genders that male is somehow better. A lot of women too. If a woman dresses in "mens" clothes, no one bats an eyelid, if a man dresses in women's clothes he is seen as somehow lesser. I think beyond the homophobia, he is seen as lesser, because the feminine is itself seen as somehow lesser, so why would a man signal that "inferiority".

I agree. I think if woman dresses in drag she is somehow 'subversive' or 'dangerous' because she's letting go of her femininity. Whereas if a man does it , oh, it's a laugh, etc,etc. Look at how many male comedians use cross-dressing to get laughs. Simiarly, if you look at most films, when a woman is naked it is purely for her to be viewed as a sex object, where as a man being naked is more often than not a comedy device. Generally speaking.

I believe people have strong mis-conceptions about feminism. It's definitely a dirty word, most people ( and the people who most strongly denounce it) believe feminists are man-hating lesbians (who of course are ugly, fat and in need of a ride). While there are those who take it too far, these are a minority of extremists. There are men who are feminists as well, so it's nothing to do with wanting to dominate or control men.

I find it pretty patronizing to be told 'oh get a sense of humor' if somebody tells a sexist joke. I view it as just another part of sexual inequality in our society. Before anyone accuses me of trying to portray women as victims, I'm not, I'm just saying there is gender equality in society still. In much subtler ways than not having a vote or lower wages though. Have a think about how sexuality is marketed in our culture (nearly always a woman who looks a certain way). Think about how well a song called 'I Kissed A Boy' by a bi-sexual or gay man would do in the charts.

t-ha

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually "funny" is pretty consistent, even across cultures. The details and cultural references may vary, but the mechanism is pretty consistent. Some ancient roman jokes are still humourous. Go to the deepest jungle and find a tribe there and throw a custard pie in the mush of someone(the more supercillious the better) and they'll likely laugh like anyone else. The funniest people work all over the place. Eddie Izzard has done gigs in France and Germany and can't even speak the language fluently, so while it can be subjective, it's not completely subjective. Indeed in keeping with my original point, the more objective the joke the less people will take offence.

i.e. harass them with pie?

The material of most comics involves continuously harassing different groups. Most funny things are at someone's expense, either someone else or self-deprecating.

Nevyn

And that type of humour really has no place in a professional work place.

Wibbs

Well now, don't be too hasty Thaedydal. I suspect when the idea was posted quite a number had their bosses face spring unbidden to mind. Male and female

Nevyn

Harassment in the work place is measured on the impact it had on the victim.
If a person finds the jokes/comment/remarks to be demeaning, disparaging and degrading
then they do, that is why company s are meant to have policy against such behaviour.

994

I think Bob Geldof and GW Bush shared an identical read/write exchange a while ago. As for the professor thing, can you honestly say that you wouldn't have a stereotypical image of, say, a male physics professor? Scruffy clothes, weedy, unfashionable glasses, poor social skills?

Silverfish wrote: »

"D'aww, did somebody not get into a good college then? Awww' then pat him on the head.

Of course, the normal procedure is to think of the witty retort three hours later, at home, then think 'Omg I should have said that!!' but in all subsequent retellings of the story, you include that bit like you said it.

Thats what I do anyway

Actually most people abandon the "baby-talk" insult around the age of 11.

Like a falling tree in a forest, a jokey comeback to an insult only works if someone else is there to hear it. If the other person chooses to laugh at your joke instead of your adversary's, you win. Here, it would be best to just give him a withering stare, say "That so?" and walk off.

Silverfish

994 wrote: »

I think Bob Geldof and GW Bush shared an identical read/write exchange a while ago. As for the professor thing, can you honestly say that you wouldn't have a stereotypical image of, say, a male physics professor? Scruffy clothes, weedy, unfashionable glasses, poor social skills?

Actually most people abandon the "baby-talk" insult around the age of 11.

Like a falling tree in a forest, a jokey comeback to an insult only works if someone else is there to hear it. If the other person chooses to laugh at your joke instead of your adversary's, you win. Here, it would be best to just give him a withering stare, say "That so?" and walk off.

Sounds like you're well practised in the habits of 11 year olds.

Anyway it wasn't baby-talk, I wouldn't change my voice to say it at all, but even if it was,people should let go of the 'hurrr hurrrr gurls are stupid' around that age, so if this guy hadn't let go of it, maybe he should be spoken to at a level he'll understand?


If someone says

With a sly and knowing look, the distinguished gentleman said “You might look fetching in your boyfriend’s scarf, but you have no right to wear it.”

to me, I'm going to say more than 'That so?' which would imply I disagree with being allowed to wear my boyfriend's scarf. I would let that person know I earned that scarf, and that they need to resolve their own inner issues that would cause them to say that comment to someone they didn't know.

The Sweeper

I personally, appropriate or otherwise, like to embrace anti-women jokes.

And then I like to make them at men.

Possibly because of the kind of person I am, I get total satisfaction out of the look on a bloke's face when he's in the middle of making an impassioned point, and I ask him "What, have you got your fncking period or something?"

I get similar results from "Didn't you bring your knitting to this meeting?", "Stop being such a bitch" and "If you have a printout of those facts in your handbag, I'll take a copy thanks."

I also find, believe it or not, that refusing to get offended by anti-wimmin jokes is useful, but I've always felt attack is the best form of defense.

Most men who make 'have you got your period' jokes, well - they can't stand the concept of a period.

I've responded to "Are you in yer flowers?" with "No, I'm making a point that you're missing, but I wish I was in my flowers, because maybe if I dropped a tampon in your coffee I could get your attention."

Cue horror, non-finishing of coffee general revulsion, and usually me getting told I'm the one who's overstepped the mark.

I find it interesting that all of the above examples are from my younger years. These days, and I don't quite know why, but very, very few men will make a "woman" joke at me.