Wimmin jokes - funny or fallacy?

The Sweeper

At that point, I was still wearing my scarf from New Hall, Cambridge, in much the same way that Linus carries his security blanket. I was trying to be a Good Girl and Be Nice (projects I have abandoned since as impossible). I smiled and said hello.

With a sly and knowing look, the distinguished gentleman said “You might look fetching in your boyfriend’s scarf, but you have no right to wear it.”

bluewolf wrote: »

Someone humour me and tell me what WOULD have been a good comeback to that scarf thing, because I can't think of one :pac:

These are things I would say, and most of these are genuinely things I would think of in time. But that's because I'm in my early thirties and I've been a mouthy cow for years and I'm no longer excruciatingly unsure of my every footstep, the way I was in my 20s.

"Excuse me, please don't comment on my appearance. I don't know you and I find it highly inappropriate."

"The scarf is mine, and whatever I choose to wear on a given day is absolutely none of your business."

"My first impulse is to try and defend my choice of warderobe, and prove the scarf is mine with some obviously intelligent and witty response. However, I've just realised your comment was utterly ridiculous. On that basis, please don't bother to follow it up with another."

If I were feeling particularly self confident, I would channel my inner concept of utter femininity, which is a sort of cross between Joanna Lumley (in real life, not as Patsy ) and a member of the upper classes, and simply respond with, in a tone of surprised scorn:

"My word. How rude."

The problem with ripostes is not the speed at which you think of them, however. It's the ability of the person to whom they are delivered to understand them, and unfortunately the sort of moron who makes a 'wimmin' joke isn't usually very bright.

Nevyn

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

I personally, appropriate or otherwise, like to embrace anti-women jokes.

And then I like to make them at men.

Possibly because of the kind of person I am, I get total satisfaction out of the look on a bloke's face when he's in the middle of making an impassioned point, and I ask him "What, have you got your fncking period or something?"

I get similar results from "Didn't you bring your knitting to this meeting?", "Stop being such a bitch" and "If you have a printout of those facts in your handbag, I'll take a copy thanks."

I also find, believe it or not, that refusing to get offended by anti-wimmin jokes is useful, but I've always felt attack is the best form of defense.

Most men who make 'have you got your period' jokes, well - they can't stand the concept of a period.

I've responded to "Are you in yer flowers?" with "No, I'm making a point that you're missing, but I wish I was in my flowers, because maybe if I dropped a tampon in your coffee I could get your attention."

Cue horror, non-finishing of coffee general revulsion, and usually me getting told I'm the one who's overstepped the mark.

I've done that as well but I found myself questioning the fallacy of supporting that female/feminine
is lesser. That by calling a bloke a big girl when he is being over sensitive I am doing myself
and my gender a disservice.

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

I find it interesting that all of the above examples are from my younger years. These days, and I don't quite know why, but very, very few men will make a "woman" joke at me.

Because an older, more experienced, more self confident woman will not be as easily embrassed, flustered or cowed by such jokes, so they won't get the response they are looking for.

Wibbs

I still think the first retort of "aww, did somebody not get into a good college then? Awww" is a better response than listing the reasons why you deserve to wear the scarf. The latter looks very defensive and insecure. Again maybe it's the male mind(or just mine), but that's how I would react to that. If say, I passed a comment that was meant as a joke and was genuinely not meant aggressively, then I would apologise, but my internal reaction would "jesus, lighten up, it's cool" and "note to self, sense of humour, nil. Avoid for the time being". If I was passing a comment that was meant to be demeaning, I would know I'd "won" and no mistake. Lets imagine, same scenario, but the woman was a nobel prize winner in the field, but dopey boy didn't recognise her. I doubt she would go on to list why she should be there or explain herself. She wouldn't have to. So would be more likely to say "is that so?" I would say the same if a man reacted in those ways BTW.

I would also agree with Minesajackdaniels angle. No one's likely to write her off if she comes back with that stuff. The bullys will kack themselves and the men who are not, will appreciate it. More to the point understand it. It does go both ways though. There are men and women I'll joke around with even slag and it's all good and there are others men and women, that I won't simply because it's not their bag, or they've an insecure defensive thing going on. That's cool too.

Wibbs

Thaedydal wrote: »

I've done that as well but I found myself questioning the fallacy of supporting that female/feminine
is lesser. That by calling a bloke a big girl when he is being over sensitive I am doing myself
and my gender a disservice.

Or equally it's pointing out in a very clear way how silly the cliches are in the first place.

Nevyn

Wibbs wrote: »

Or equally it's pointing out in a very clear way how silly the cliches are in the first place.

Only to those who have the wit to see the irony otherwise you run the risk
as coming across as one of those antiwomen women.

Star Lord

Ok, I haven't read the whole of this thread yet, but would like to post my own opinions on the first two points, raised by G'em and Silverfish.

G'em wrote:

Recently I was having a PM conversation with a couple of fellow (male) Mods. I made a comment about how my mind was liable to change depending on the mood I was in. One of the Mods retorted with that boards.ie/ intarweb favourite "Fixed that for ya"

This, of course, is subject to change at a moments' notice and depending on what kind of mood I'm in hormone level.

Now, a few months ago I probably would have chuckled to myself and put it down to boys' being boys, sure aren't they just little rogues yadda yadda yadda.

But actually it irked me. A lot.

Silverfish wrote:

The general consensus was the two lads are 'real go-getters, assertive, demanding, etc etc' where as I was asked if it was 'my time of the month'.

I wouldn't associate these two comments with one another at all.

IMHO the first comment, the one made to G'em was more a tongue-in-cheek jokey comment, with no offence intended, and probably made in the thought that it would be taken as intended. It was not meant as any kind of put down, more a gentle ribbing.

The second comment, the one made to Silverfish, I would take as being completely insulting, as it inferred that she is irrational, and the comments or points she made were not worth consideration. At that I would have taken offence to this, and I'm not female...

To me, both comments are worlds apart, one acceptable, the other not acceptable in a million years, even though the actual content of what was said was not all that different.

Anyone agree/disagree?

Silverfish

Maybe read the whole of the thread.

Men have moods, but that's allowed, if a woman has moods is 'hormones' or whatever.

Can we not just be in a bad mood for the same reason as a man would be?

Its demeaning. Its ****e. Its unfair. And its no wonder we're in a mood if this is what we have to listen to day in day out.

And then to be told 'well love, you can be annoyed at that, but to be annoyed at this is silly and stupid'.

Add that to watching someone get into a pisser of a mood cos their football team lost or whatever, and its like ....'What's silly again sorry?'

dfx-

Wibbs wrote: »

I still think the first retort of "aww, did somebody not get into a good college then? Awww" is a better response than listing the reasons why you deserve to wear the scarf. The latter looks very defensive and insecure. Again maybe it's the male mind(or just mine), but that's how I would react to that. If say, I passed a comment that was meant as a joke and was genuinely not meant aggressively, then I would apologise, but my internal reaction would "jesus, lighten up, it's cool" and "note to self, sense of humour, nil. Avoid for the time being". If I was passing a comment that was meant to be demeaning, I would know I'd "won" and no mistake.

Exactly what I would think.

None of majd's "anti-women jokes" are remotely funny, jokes or said with any sense of humour and would come across to me as very defensive. If you can't spot what is meant as humour and what is an insult, you're not responding in kind and often responding needlessly aggressively.

I would probably organise a restraining order so I don't come within 50m of someone that irritable in a professional workplace, male or female.

Dragan

Silverfish wrote: »

Men have moods, but that's allowed, if a woman has moods is 'hormones' or whatever.

Can we not just be in a bad mood for the same reason as a man would be?

All moods are driven by hormones, in both men and women. Trotting out the "hormones" line as an explanation for a woman being moody is essentially admiting ignorance about basic endocrinology.

Shambles i tells ya!!!!:)

Star Lord

Silverfish wrote: »

Maybe read the whole of the thread.

Men have moods, but that's allowed, if a woman has moods is 'hormones' or whatever.

Can we not just be in a bad mood for the same reason as a man would be?

Its demeaning. Its ****e. Its unfair. And its no wonder we're in a mood if this is what we have to listen to day in day out.

And then to be told 'well love, you can be annoyed at that, but to be annoyed at this is silly and stupid'.

Add that to watching someone get into a pisser of a mood cos their football team lost or whatever, and its like ....'What's silly again sorry?'

I think you missed the angle or intent of my post Silverfish.

I'm in complete agreement with your points. Men get in moods same as women do. Both get in moods for any number of reasons. Sometimes we don't even know why we get into such moods. To try to pass it off as because you're "on your period" is insulting and belittling, and completely unacceptable.

To get into a pisser of a mood because of a football game or something of that ilk is something I simply don't understand at all anyway so I'm on your side on that one too.

My point was making a differentiation between what is a bit of banter with slagging going both ways in a lighthearted manner is completely different to trying to suggest someone is being irrational because "it's that time of the month".

One I would see no harm in, the other I would (even though I am a man) be outraged by.

Silverfish

Dragan wrote: »

All moods are driven by hormones, in both men and women. Trotting out the "hormones" line as an explanation for a woman being moody is essentially admiting ignorance about basic endocrinology.

Shambles i tells ya!!!!:)

Yeah well, unfortunately engineers don't know anything about basic endocrinology. Sigh.

At least it's Friday. That's if I can manage to drive home without killing myself , wrecking every car in the carpark, manage to pull into my own driveway without crashing, even FIND my way home, and whatever else of their repertoire they managed to get through today.

/bangs head on desk.

Oh no wait, can't do that, it'll destroy the makeup I allegedly spent hours doing in my rearview mirror this morning, despite not wearing any today at all.

Nevyn

DamoElDiablo wrote: »

My point was making a differentiation between what is a bit of banter with slagging going both ways in a lighthearted manner is completely different to trying to suggest someone is being irrational because "it's that time of the month".

The things is that there was no banter, g'em made a self deprecating comment
and low and behold it must be due to her horrormoanes, she wasn't in a slagging match.

Maybe she should have said "I reserve the right to change my mind later"
but still what she said wasn't an opening to have a go or make a joke
at her gender.

Silverfish

DamoElDiablo wrote: »

I think you missed the angle or intent of my post Silverfish.

I'm in complete agreement with your points. Men get in moods same as women do. Both get in moods for any number of reasons. Sometimes we don't even know why we get into such moods. To try to pass it off as because you're "on your period" is insulting and belittling, and completely unacceptable.

To get into a pisser of a mood because of a football game or something of that ilk is something I simply don't understand at all anyway so I'm on your side on that one too.

My point was making a differentiation between what is a bit of banter with slagging going both ways in a lighthearted manner is completely different to trying to suggest someone is being irrational because "it's that time of the month".

One I would see no harm in, the other I would (even though I am a man) be outraged by.

Yes but to reiterate, when you are on the RECEIVING end of these constantly, beit banter or with serious intention, they become one and the same.

Especially when the serious intent one is delivered mockingly just in case that person gets accused of being sexist, so they can use the defence of 'Jaysus it was only a joke, ****s sake, women wha?'

I'm not going to sit about and go 'Okay, he meant that, but the other guy didn't, so his intention must have been serious, but the other guy had a slight smile so MAYBE he was joking so maybe ...'

If people need to resort to it, they need to recheck their game. We're a long damn time out of the schoolyard here.

Star Lord

Thaedydal wrote: »

The things is that there was no banter, g'em made a self deprecating comment
and low and behold it must be due to her horrormoanes, she wasn't in a slagging match.

Maybe she should have said "I reserve the right to change my mind later"
but still what she said wasn't an opening to have a go or make a joke
at her gender.

If that was the case, then I withdraw what I said, I assumed (possibly incorrectly) from what G'em had said that it was a bit more banter-y than that. Not easy to judge the tone of a conversation from one/two pieces of it.

Silverfish wrote: »

Yes but to reiterate, when you are on the RECEIVING end of these constantly, beit banter or with serious intention, they become one and the same.

Especially when the serious intent one is delivered mockingly just in case that person gets accused of being sexist, so they can use the defence of 'Jaysus it was only a joke, ****s sake, women wha?'

I'm not going to sit about and go 'Okay, he meant that, but the other guy didn't, so his intention must have been serious, but the other guy had a slight smile so MAYBE he was joking so maybe ...'

If people need to resort to it, they need to recheck their game. We're a long damn time out of the schoolyard here.

As someone who has in the past been one of the people constantly singled out as the target/punchline of a joke, I can understand that completely. I also understand that these things tend to continue so long as people think that they get to you by doing so. I've got to the level where I can differentiate between what was meant in a harmless manner and what was intended to insult, whether it was delivered in a jokey manner or not with the stuff that is aimed at me.

The whole problem is that too many people feel the need to try to undermine others and use these insults in the first place. I find that they really tend to come out when the person feels intimidated for some reason, be that they feel that you are overshadowing them or that they have the "alpha male complex" (be they male or female) where they feel the need to make themselves feel/seem to be better than everyone else.

Nevyn

Those who are truely 'alpha' or 'dominant' do not need to resort to that type of behaviour
only those who are not and wish to appear to be so.

Star Lord

Thaedydal wrote: »

Those who are truely 'alpha' or 'dominant' do not need to resort to that type of behaviour
only those who are not and wish to appear to be so.

You're correct there, but think that is something that would be beyond the range of my knowledge/experience!

You see the same kind of behaviour anywhere that people are hungry for promotion amongst a pool of people at a similar level, where these people will always try to appear to be better than the rest.

Wibbs

Dragan wrote: »

All moods are driven by hormones, in both men and women. Trotting out the "hormones" line as an explanation for a woman being moody is essentially admiting ignorance about basic endocrinology.

Shambles i tells ya!!!!:)

True though women do have to contend with more hormones that vary over 28 days and have fairly large effects in the body. Some have an horrendous time of it. An ex of mine used to suffer really badly. Physical pain, nausea, feelings akin to depression the works. God love her, I was nearly in tears watching her go through it. To her credit, I can think of only one time she took it out on anyone. The woman had the patience of a saint. She went on the pill and it settled right down(after a few diff ones). Huge difference for her and her quality of life.

Testosterone does have an effect, but not nearly to the same degree. Though there was a great experiment I read of, where a woman endocrinologist, injected herself with male levels of test for a month. Brave in lots of ways. I remember that she found a lot of effects on her. A lot positive, especially with regard to being forthright in company. She apparently was quite a quiet person, but within a week she found that she was holding her corner far more than before and was much more relaxed about it, to the degree that she got some grant or other that she had been denied and fobbed off for a long time. It gave her more energy and made her more quick tempered and horny apparently. It had disadvantages too as she found she was less engaging with others among other things. She didn't notice half the stuff but collegues and family really noticed a change. I think she was trying to find out if it reduced PMT which she suffered from very badly. Apparently it did, but also screwed up her cycle(naturally). She was trying to find if there was some part of the molecule she could use that helped but didn't screw with her cycle. Fascinating stuff. I'll try and see if I can find it online.

Nevyn

Are you postulating with the above that women would be better if they were more like men ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6iktQ2y1Rs

:rolleyes:

I really do think that as long as we are holding up men as the prime example of humanity
that women can't win and this goes back to those old dead greeks again.

JC 2K3

Wibbs wrote: »

Testosterone does have an effect, but not nearly to the same degree. Though there was a great experiment I read of, where a woman endocrinologist, injected herself with male levels of test for a month. Brave in lots of ways. I remember that she found a lot of effects on her. A lot positive, especially with regard to being forthright in company. She apparently was quite a quiet person, but within a week she found that she was holding her corner far more than before and was much more relaxed about it, to the degree that she got some grant or other that she had been denied and fobbed off for a long time. It gave her more energy and made her more quick tempered and horny apparently. It had disadvantages too as she found she was less engaging with others among other things. She didn't notice half the stuff but collegues and family really noticed a change. I think she was trying to find out if it reduced PMT which she suffered from very badly. Apparently it did, but also screwed up her cycle(naturally). She was trying to find if there was some part of the molecule she could use that helped but didn't screw with her cycle. Fascinating stuff. I'll try and see if I can find it online.

Interesting, but I'd be wary of the placebo effect in any such study.

Wibbs

No god not at all. The effects on her were both positive(for her) and negative. She preferred herself the way she was. It fascinated her and gave her some insight to some male attitudes, that's all. As far as what the male hormones effects were. The aggressive bits. Indeed it could be argued that it made her less of a person because of that. She thought so. Personally I regard certain aspects of extreme maleness bad and ditto for extreme femaleness. Also great good on both sides. Some are bad and good. Men tend to be better at tunnel vision, which is fine in some circumstances but really bad in others as it narrows the options. The beauty is that both men and women have aspects of both, that we may describe as "male" or "female", but are just traits associated with same. Some have some basis in gender biology. Most don't. As I say I'll try and find references.

Nevyn

Anima and Animus.

But as long as women are seen to be inferior in general due to being women and having
horemoanal flutuations and bleeding from the crotch then bringing up those topics will
be used to demean women and referring to a man in feminine terms will always be an insult.

Some people are better at certain things then other people,
some of those things are gender linked rahter then gender dependant
many things are not and the sooner we start treating people as people
and not make assumptions cos they are XX or XY the better the world will be.

That to me is what feminism is about.

tallaght01

I think (I hope!) this thread is more reflective of a polarised set of views.

Any girls I would hang out with know the difference between a bit of slagging, and someone being nasty.

It's all in the intent.

I was looking at some nice cars that I'd like to buy the other day in work. Small penis jokes abounded.

I was whineing about everyone coming to me with problems at the same time one particular day. The girls all started saying I can't multitask because I'm a man.

But we laugh about these things. Gender inequality is so much bigger than a joke that has no malicious intent.

I make the odd jamrag joke in work, and with friends. Big deal. We all joke about worse things. I slag my black mate about being a "grave digger". I get slagged by him all the time for being a dumb paddy.

If it's meant nastily, then it's nasty. But if it's not meant that way, then it's not.

I'm glad most girls are reasonably chilled about these things, though. Like I said, I think these type of conversations are somewhat self selecting in the type of opinions they attract.

Wibbs

While I agree with tallaght01, there are more things at play. Now outside of moany buggers of either gender, or people who just always grab the wrong end of the stick, I think that often there is a gender difference at play and not because "women don't get it".

If as a woman you're used to being seen as a gender first and reacted to and judged on that all your life, that crap becomes background noise. People do treat the genders differently IMH. Men are in general accorded more respect for want of a better word just by virtue of being male. Now that judgement can go both ways. It's very complex.

Now all of us are judged and measured up on the basis of sex, race, age etc. the list is long. But in this scenario we're discussing, it's interesting to watch.

If you try to detach as much as possible and observe and listen to what men(and indeed other women) say and act towards women it's very pervasive. Little micro comments and tonal changes and gestures that subtly(and sometimes not so subtly) put women down, or just treat them differently according to their gender. Hell honestly and hand on heart, I've caught myself doing it. Men in general don't see that. I didn't.

It's the same with racism(though I abhor isms), only usually more overt. EG in the deep south of the US, a white guy walking into a shop has a different experience than a black guy. The latter is more likely to be targeted by security, purely because he's black. If you see that from an early age as a black person, that will have an effect.

Now if you're used to that on a daily basis as a woman, I can defo see why that would build up resentment and frustration over time and no mistake. After a while it's like working in a bell factory, you stop hearing the bells. But they're ringing and every so often the noise will get to you. Now some women don't notice or even like the way they're treated differently, but in business or general life, if you're being ignored or otherwise treated badly, I can understand why a joke, regardless of intent could fall flat.

tallaght01

That's fine, Wibbs. We all judge humour based on our experiences, to an extent.
But when we start talking about the (exaggerated, I'm pretty sure) claims of some people about what they say to guys who make women jokes, then you'r into this murky area of judging a guy's intent, based on the woman's perceived sexist experiences in the past.

That's just not consistent. Because, to one of my friends or colleagues I'm not a bad guy because I made a woman joke. But, to someone else, I'm sexist if I say the same thing.

I wouldn't go making holocaust jokes to a group of jews, so there has to be limits. But, i think if I made a harmless joke to a girl, when I blatantly mean no harm, then I personally think it;s her problem if she gets offended.

Having said that, the reality is I wouldn't make a comment like that to someone I didn't know well.

Another difficulty comes in judging the parameters of the question. Are these jokes "funny"? That's an individual call. Are they "fallacy"? Well, the word makes no sense in this context.

Maybe I'm just obnoxious. But, I'm sure I've done just as much for disenfranchised and vulnerable women as some of the people who would jump down my throat for making a little joke to one of my friends.

allabouteve

tallaght01 wrote: »

Maybe I'm just obnoxious. But, I'm sure I've done just as much for disenfranchised and vulnerable women as some of the people who would jump down my throat for making a little joke to one of my friends.

First sentence true!:p

Second sentence is a rare understatement.:)

Piste

Responding to jokes like that is a real catch 22. If you react in any negative way, doesn't matter whether your spazzing or trying to be assertive, "The Lads" will still smirk and nudge each other and say "point proven, can't take a joke", whereas if you ignore it it gived them the message that it's ok.

Really can't win

t-ha

Wibbs wrote: »

Testosterone does have an effect, but not nearly to the same degree. Though there was a great experiment I read of, where a woman endocrinologist, injected herself with male levels of test for a month. Brave in lots of ways. I remember that she found a lot of effects on her. A lot positive, especially with regard to being forthright in company. She apparently was quite a quiet person, but within a week she found that she was holding her corner far more than before and was much more relaxed about it, to the degree that she got some grant or other that she had been denied and fobbed off for a long time. It gave her more energy and made her more quick tempered and horny apparently. It had disadvantages too as she found she was less engaging with others among other things. She didn't notice half the stuff but collegues and family really noticed a change. I think she was trying to find out if it reduced PMT which she suffered from very badly. Apparently it did, but also screwed up her cycle(naturally). She was trying to find if there was some part of the molecule she could use that helped but didn't screw with her cycle. Fascinating stuff. I'll try and see if I can find it online.

Levels of testosterone vary from person to person and over time also. Although men do have more it's not really a 'male' hormone. Men and women both have it, and it's effects on the brain are similar for both. Increase levels in someone with previously low levels and they'll become more assertive and ambitious - too much and they'll get 'testy', over-confident, drive too fast etc. :pac:

Successful business people have been found to have, on average, higher levels of testosterone than normal. Again that trend is for both men and women.

Nevyn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRW7DjYxTyk

The Sweeper

Any piece of slagging that gets made at you frequently and which irritates you and makes you uncomfortable is unacceptable.

I don't get many wimmin jokes coming my way, because I'm just enough of a bitch to be unpleasant, but also not fanatically bitchy enough to seem hysterical.

However I get Irish jokes three or four times a week. Those are *DULL*.