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How We Blew the Boom

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24

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    #32
    Zynks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭Zynks


    DadaKopf wrote: »
    And why did so many people sign up to mortgages on second homes, speculative investments, etc? Partly on the basis of untrustworthy/dubious information flowing from banks, politicians, developers and the regulator. What regulator? Many people trusted these institutions. And many now realise that it was riddled with corruption. It is my understanding of new financial 'products' like Consolidated Debt Obligations that they were designed to spread risk more widely; this meant placing more of the burden of risk on society as a whole. It was my opinion all along that people could not afford these loans, and I did explain why (e.g. income-to-price ratios for homes; income-to-debt ratios; the trajectory of the domestic economy; history; etc.). But I'm just an individual, but people look to institutions for guidance. And it wasn't forthcoming.

    But anyway, I have my views based on my understandings of the global economy and development/underdevelopment cycles in developing countries and developed countries. And I don't expect to engage in genuine discussion in this thread with various people around here willfully misinterpreting my positions on issues to perpetuate dogma. It's a waste of time.

    Lets put it another way. I also always suspected we were heading for a crash. Four years ago a good friend of mine was buying his third and fourth properties and I got a bit flustered and told him to wise up because the market would run out of fools soon.

    I still think the worst in all of this were the government and the press for their actions that bordered on prostitution. Banks, builders, speculators and genuine home buyers were just playing (irresponsibly) by what was perceived as a demand and supply game.

    The press were the main tool in keeping the belief that this would go on forever, for the sake of the massive income they were getting on ads.

    The government thought they were on for an easy ride and did nothing to slow things down a bit. Although they had no control over interest rates, they had many options and mechanisms at hand, but they chose to collect taxes, a lot of them.

    Summary of my views on the players:

    The criminals
    Press
    FF Government

    The plain stupid & greedy
    Banks (except for Anglo, which goes in the first group)
    Speculators

    The Greedy
    Developers

    The Fools
    Buyers who couldn't realistically afford it

    But all of them are presumed to be adults and fully accountable for their acts. I see no valid excuses for any party involved in this mess.


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    #33
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #34
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    The show is now available on the RTE website for any who missed it: http://www.rte.ie/news/howweblewtheboom/

    Just click the Watch link in the above.


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    #35
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    silverharp wrote: »
    What you are underestimating is how markets work. The very act of regulating could cause the effects you are trying to avoid. You only have to look at the Fed under Greenspan to see that even with supposidly 100's of the smartest economists to choose from that they possibly cant keep on top of the interaction of trade , interest and currency flows.
    Reduce that to the Irish situation where a hack regulator who was too chummy with his bank collegues, and dont rock the boat politicians be they FF or FG was only ever going to lead to chaos

    Yes but not having a regulator would have lead to the same conclusion IMO.

    There would be nothing to stop the banks working together without a regulator. Only one less person to talk to. The CEO's wanted ever increasing profits and would push for this to make them look better as they only ever think of the short term they are in charge rather like politicians looking to the next election.

    Nothing to stop them going crazy. The shareholders wouldn't police it because they would get what they wanted, higher profits and returns on their shares and higher share price worth because of this with nobody realising it was unsustainable or everyone realising it and planning to get out on time and take their high return on investment.

    The system is setup around these bubbles whether you have a regulator or not. That is why the regulator existed but he did not do his job. We need a regulator that can't play to interest groups and just does his job. In order to do that the penalties have to be high when things go wrong, far outweighing any benefits of playing to the groups that would lead to a bubble for the regulator so that he has no incentive to cave to these groups.


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    #36
    Zynks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭Zynks


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I am not sure I see any moves to protect mortgage defaulters, except for a "postponement" of repossessions. Am I missing something?


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    #37
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #38
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Originally Posted by donegalfella
    I agree. But what about the people who exercised caution and prudence amidst the property mania? They are now expected to help the foolish keep the homes that they never should have been able to buy in the first place—while often having no homes of their own.

    I am not sure how long the banks will do this for. At some point reality will have to kick in for the banks and the mortgage holders. IMO the free market ended some months ago when the bastions of capitalism ie. the financial institutions worldwide were bailed out.

    Even today a new plan unveiled in the US for $1 trillion to buy up toxic debt. Essentially a free market with no risk for the banks and financial institutions is what we have now, a pseudo frre market, as they will be bailed out no matter what they do now or in the future.


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    #39
    schween
    Registered Users Posts: 444 ✭✭schween


    What really annoyed me was the clip of Bertie Ahern saying in 2006 that there is no problem with the Irish property market and gave out stink about some people scaremongering by predicting that Ireland faces a serious property crash.


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    #40
    Daragh101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 585 ✭✭✭Daragh101


    What really annoyed me was the clip of Bertie Ahern saying in 2006 that there is no problem with the Irish property market and gave out stink about some people scaremongering by predicting that Ireland faces a serious property crash.


    Ya i totally agree, i no brian cowen played a big role in all this,(he is getting slaughtered for it) while bertie has sliped out the back door and is totally out of all the chaos.
    people think bertie was a great taoiseach, but in fairness anyone could have done his job, all he did was sit back and relax, while without knowing it he was f***ing up our country.


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    #41
    Alan1988
    Registered Users Posts: 32 ✭Alan1988


    Its not all doom and gloom. Just got to stay positive and get on with it! ;)


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    #42
    jimi_t
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭jimi_t


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Why should Paddy the civil servant be paid 40% more than his counterpart in Boston, Birmingham or Berlin ?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchasing_power_parity


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    #43
    Daragh101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 585 ✭✭✭Daragh101


    Its not all doom and gloom. Just got to stay positive and get on with it! wink.gif

    ya too right!!!!! i with ya there the sooner where out of this rescession the better.got to think positive. im just saying bertie got off the hook.


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    #44
    Nostradamus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Nostradamus


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Delighted to hear we have left the EU!

    George Lee is an idiot like most of the so called journalists in this country. They cannot tell the difference between propaganda and corporate/political press releases.

    I watched him one night in amazement on Prime Time arrogantly informing two top oil industry professionals they had not got a clue what they were talking about and that he did, as he had a press release from OPEC to prove it. The two of them were looking at each other and trying not to snigger.

    I would take nothing Gerorge Lee says as anything but the mindless repetition of a classic, unquestioning, media parrot waiting for his latest version of "the truth" to be sent to his fax machine from some Common Purpose press office.

    George Lee was reporting an "economic recovery in September 08" based entirely on what the DOF told him. He researched nothing of what they claimed, did not place it in the context of world economic data, and with a straight face comes on the 6 o'clock news telling us how the recession will taper off before winter 2008. Why? Becuase someone said so and our Geroge reports it verbatim, no matter bizarre. He has the press release so he does...

    Peeple, stop listening to these muppets in media and journalism. They know nothing which is of any use to you in your own lives. It's all bull****.


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    #45
    Nostradamus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 621 ✭✭✭Nostradamus


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Why should Paddy the civil servant be paid 40% more than his counterpart in Boston, Birmingham or Berlin ?

    Ah come on now. Train fares back to Mayo every weekend adds up.


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    #46
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Nostradamus wrote: »
    George Lee is an idiot like most of the so called journalists in this country. They cannot tell the difference between propaganda and corporate/political press releases.
    Perhaps you could point out the "propaganda" in this particular documentary?


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    #47
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #48
    leitrim lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,013 ✭✭✭leitrim lad


    sorry to but in donegal fella but is it going to be repeated ,as i missed it sunday night, was there much about our white collar criminals


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    #49
    sparklepants
    Closed Accounts Posts: 107 ✭✭sparklepants


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    I thought George Lee looked very nice tbh. God knows we saw enough of him.
    ...and he drives a very nice car!


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    #50
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    I agree but it didn't go far enough. Were we supposed to feel sorry for the salesman who frittered away his money or the woman selling shoe boxes with her merc parked outside? I also felt he didn't spend enough time on the poor quality of the houses that were built and how much it's going to cost the taxpayer to bring them up to standard or the awful planning decisions - worst timing possible.
    sparklepants wrote: »
    I thought George Lee looked very nice tbh. God knows we saw enough of him.
    ...and he drives a very nice car!
    Er..it was a show that he was presenting - what exactly did you expect?
    His car is 10 years old.


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    #51
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #52
    leitrim lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,013 ✭✭✭leitrim lad


    i must watch it i will post after i see it all thanks


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    #53
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #54
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    taconnol wrote: »
    I agree but it didn't go far enough. Were we supposed to feel sorry for the salesman who frittered away his money or the woman selling shoe boxes with her merc parked outside?
    I think the idea was to make people realise that society at large is partly to blame for where we are now. There's been an awful lot of finger-pointing going on over the last few months, largely in the direction of bankers and politicians. But at the end of the day, there were a great many people in this country who were living totally unsustainable lifestyles. I think the documentary did a pretty good job of emphasising this point - personal debt got totally out of control.


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    #55
    Mary D
    Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭Mary D


    Did anyone notice the music they were playing in the background was from Slumdog Millionaire.

    TBH I thought this programme would have showed a few dodgy dealings as to how we ended up the way we did, but it wasn't anything we didn't know already.......boring.


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    #56
    djpbarry
    Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.
    I found that quite refreshing actually, although I imagine they had to go through a fairly large number of interviewees before they came across a handful who were prepared to admit that they gambled big and lost.


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    #57
    getcover
    Registered Users Posts: 264 ✭✭getcover


    It's all Brian Kerr/Steve Staunton's fault, isn't it?


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    #58
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    How is George Lee presenting a TV programme ? Does this mean that he didn't do Bertie's bidding and "f**k off and commit suicide" for having the gall to highlight what was coming ?

    And has Bertie issued a press release about this programme yet ? What will his response be to the CURRENT round of "telling it like it is", I wonder ?

    Cowen has a lot to answer for, too, though; he was Minister for Finance while most of those tax breaks were available, and he's given the banks BILLIONS which they are using to pay themselves "bonuses".....

    They should have put a HELL of a lot of rules and regulations on those bail-outs! But as usual, they didn't......


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    #59
    thebman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,012 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    Mary D wrote: »
    Did anyone notice the music they were playing in the background was from Slumdog Millionaire.

    TBH I thought this programme would have showed a few dodgy dealings as to how we ended up the way we did, but it wasn't anything we didn't know already.......boring.

    We know those dodgy dealings were going on too though so would that be boring :P

    The program will at least educate those that don't know about the things in the program.


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    #60
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #61
    Zynks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭Zynks


    Nostradamus wrote: »
    Ah come on now. Train fares back to Mayo every weekend adds up.

    specially with Ianrod Eireann's extortionate fares


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