O Gara performance v Wales

Judgement Day

Of course people are entitled to have their opinions on how players are performing but endless carping on about ROG is pathetic. I think Declan Kidney is better placed than anybody posting here to decide whether ROG is good enough to play for Ireland or Munster.

anonymous_joe

Tbh lads, without offering an opinion, I'm a bit disappointed (if not surprised) by all the people acting angrily to discussion.

At the end of the day, we just won a Grand Slam. Everyone's absolutely chuffed. We're not perfect though, and inevitably there are criticisms that can be made. I'm not blinkered enough to refuse to criticise after a win, because while winning matters a lot, the manner of a win gives clues as to the likelihood of such results being repeated.

RHunce

yes o gara had a rocky start in the first half and took quite a battering. three missed tackles is quite a high no. in professional rugby. but lets face it o gara is not a tackler or a physical guy. but to come back in the second half the way he did takes great character and nobody could deny him that. those kicks were immaculate excluding one. i comment o gara for his cross fields, he makes it look so easy.

Dub973

Judgement Day wrote: »

Of course people are entitled to have their opinions on how players are performing but endless carping on about ROG is pathetic. I think Declan Kidney is better placed than anybody posting here to decide whether ROG is good enough to play for Ireland or Munster.

Look this is hoelw it is,ogara did not perform well against wales and in my eyes can't perform when it really matters! And I agree,he is to small he needs more weight

walshb

Dub973 wrote: »

Look this is hoelw it is,ogara did not perform well against wales and in my eyes can't perform when it really matters! And I agree,he is to small he needs more weight

Can't perform when it really matters?

So, was that drop goal not performing then?

The guy is a fantastic player and it is widely agreed that for Ireland to
triumph, Ronan has to play well; and he more than not, does!

He's the 6 Nations top points scorer, yet he can't perform when it
matters. I happen to recall him performing many times when
it mattered!

Seriously, who the hell are we comparing him to.
He's quite possibly one of the best in his position
in the world, at least in the 6 Nations and
some think he's not up to it?

handsomecake

i dont get all the o gara hyperbole either.
firstly the drop goal was a sitter compared to the ones i see francois steyn kicking from behind his own halfway line. no -body waxes lyrical about them.
secondly o gara didnt make one break of note in the whole tournament,has no pace,and proved once again in the wales match that he cannot tackle.
for those of you who say that (yeah but he is targeted by the opposition backrow),that argument doesnt hold water because he is targeted
A.because they think he is a week link and
B. because video analysis CONFIRMS he is a week link with the numerous clips of him on his arse after being flattened.

daniel carter and butch james show you how do defend the 10/12 channel properly.
daniel carter makes 2/3/4 excellent scithing breaks in every game and thus puts their backrow and outhalf on the backfoot .
when marking o gara every one just drifts onto darcy/o driscoll because they KNOW he wont make a break.
the only difference between o gara and johnny wilkinson is that wilkinson is injured. the pair of them have just kicked the leather off the ball for ten plus years.

"but he is the highest points scorer in the heinekn cup" i hear you say.
he is a dead ball specialist(not this year though). o gara is just like david beckham,accomodated in the team for dead ball prowess/kicking but by in large not any good at the sport he plays.
get the green tinted glasses off.spies,burger,kankowski et al will absolutely eat him alive on the high veldt

louthandproud

handsomecake wrote: »

i dont get all the o gara hyperbole either.
firstly the drop goal was a sitter compared to the ones i see francois steyn kicking from behind his own halfway line. no -body waxes lyrical about them.
secondly o gara didnt make one break of note in the whole tournament,has no pace,and proved once again in the wales match that he cannot tackle.
for those of you who say that (yeah but he is targeted by the opposition backrow),that argument doesnt hold water because he is targeted
A.because they think he is a week link and
B. because video analysis CONFIRMS he is a week link with the numerous clips of him on his arse after being flattened.

daniel carter and butch james show you how do defend the 10/12 channel properly.
daniel carter makes 2/3/4 excellent scithing breaks in every game and thus puts their backrow and outhalf on the backfoot .
when marking o gara every one just drifts onto darcy/o driscoll because they KNOW he wont make a break.
the only difference between o gara and johnny wilkinson is that wilkinson is injured. the pair of them have just kicked the leather off the ball for ten plus years.

"but he is the highest points scorer in the heinekn cup" i hear you say.
he is a dead ball specialist(not this year though). o gara is just like david beckham,accomodated in the team for dead ball prowess/kicking but by in large not any good at the sport he plays.
get the green tinted glasses off.spies,burger,kankowski et al will absolutely eat him alive on the high veldt

Mighty magnanimous of you to join the bandwagon of O'Gara slaters just a few days after he and all of the rest of the team have done us all so proud.

anonymous_joe

walshb wrote: »

Can't perform when it really matters?

So, was that drop goal not performing then?

The guy is a fantastic player and it is widely agreed that for Ireland to
triumph, Ronan has to play well; and he more than not, does!

He's the 6 Nations top points scorer, yet he can't perform when it
matters. I happen to recall him performing many times when
it mattered!

Seriously, who the hell are we comparing him to.
He's quite possibly one of the best in his position
in the world, at least in the 6 Nations and
some think he's not up to it?

He's the outhalf. Now another debate that goes nowhere about ROG is not what we need. But I'll say this - no team can play without an outhalf. Saying O'Gara is great because Ireland play badly when he plays badly is the entire problem - it's what happens with out-halves.

O'Gara is a good out-half, but he is not infallible. Nobody is.

handsomecake wrote: »

i dont get all the o gara hyperbole either.
firstly the drop goal was a sitter compared to the ones i see francois steyn kicking from behind his own halfway line. no -body waxes lyrical about them.
secondly o gara didnt make one break of note in the whole tournament,has no pace,and proved once again in the wales match that he cannot tackle.
for those of you who say that (yeah but he is targeted by the opposition backrow),that argument doesnt hold water because he is targeted
A.because they think he is a week link and
B. because video analysis CONFIRMS he is a week link with the numerous clips of him on his arse after being flattened.

daniel carter and butch james show you how do defend the 10/12 channel properly.
daniel carter makes 2/3/4 excellent scithing breaks in every game and thus puts their backrow and outhalf on the backfoot .
when marking o gara every one just drifts onto darcy/o driscoll because they KNOW he wont make a break.
the only difference between o gara and johnny wilkinson is that wilkinson is injured. the pair of them have just kicked the leather off the ball for ten plus years.

"but he is the highest points scorer in the heinekn cup" i hear you say.
he is a dead ball specialist(not this year though). o gara is just like david beckham,accomodated in the team for dead ball prowess/kicking but by in large not any good at the sport he plays.
get the green tinted glasses off.spies,burger,kankowski et al will absolutely eat him alive on the high veldt

Beckham's actually not that bad, his one weakness was a lack of pace which makes him a shít winger. His passing work rate and long range shooting are still very impressive.

In O'Gara's defensce, in certain parts of South Africa the ball will travel 10 yards more or so with the high altitude, so it's not his fault Steyn gets bigger ones.

The best way to sum up O'Gara I can think of this, the same player who missed about a dozen points against England and almost lost us the game as a result, kicked a relatively straight-forward drop goal under the most immense pressure imaginable. I know that I'd have buckled under that kind of strain, he didn't. That's fantastic, but what about the England game?

louthandproud wrote: »

Mighty magnanimous of you to join the bandwagon of O'Gara slaters just a few days after he and all of the rest of the team have done us all so proud.

Professional sports only allows for so much sympathy. This was not a perfect Grand Slam, there are points that the coaches will be looking at and wondering how to improve.

handsomecake

didnt do me proud chief. i dont like the rugby they play(have played)for years.perennial underachievers,almost bottled it again,fraud for an out half,didnt win it well ie: 2pt victory was the best they could muster.they dont dominate or kill teams off ie: the england match( which beacause of matthew taits greed in not passing to flutey they would have lost).

and i bet you any money they wont retain it next year

handsomecake

before every one starts slating me i am a rugby purist and i like to see it being played with flair and panache.

i hated the manner in which england won the world cup in 03 and i hate the way the last world cup descended into a drop goal fest where teams prefered not to have the ball then to have the ball and teams ala argentina or england played "containing rugby" ie to stifle rather then enterprise.

for me o gara and ireland and to a huge degree munster are going down this road. i abhor the rugby munster play.
new zealand got knocked out in the quarter final of the last world cup and still scored more tries then any other team(even the eventual winners).

o gara is not an exponent of good rugby. he is a journey man with a good right peg just like rob andrew or neill jenkins. as it stands daniel carter is the best out half of all time regardless of points scored

toomevara

Judgement Day wrote: »

On another thread people are complaining about the homecoming event at the Mansion House - there really is no satisfying some people - and one wonders what would have happened if Stephen Jones had got the last penalty.

+1, they'd have been happy in a perverse, self-defeating, classically Irish way...when you read some of the comments on these threads its easy to understand why, if your Irish, you've got a 9 times higher chance of developing schizophrenia than if you come from a 'normal' society....so glad I left as soon as I could...

twinytwo

handsomecake wrote: »

before every one starts slating me i am a rugby purist and i like to see it being played with flair and panache.

i hated the manner in which england won the world cup in 03 and i hate the way the last world cup descended into a drop goal fest where teams prefered not to have the ball then to have the ball and teams ala argentina or england played "containing rugby" ie to stifle rather then enterprise.

for me o gara and ireland and to a huge degree munster are going down this road. i abhor the rugby munster play.
new zealand got knocked out in the quarter final of the last world cup and still scored more tries then any other team(even the eventual winners).

o gara is not an exponent of good rugby. he is a journey man with a good right peg just like rob andrew or neill jenkins. as it stands daniel carter is the best out half of all time regardless of points scored

Dude at the end of the day rugby is a sport,played to win. Just because england won the WC doing it their way and not the AB way tough **** to the abs and every other team they beat.. they played to their strengths and they won abd they deserved to because they were the best.... regardless of points scored?? what else is there? Wilko has the one medal carter prob will never get and he holds nearly every record for a fly half so....... So how would u compare them?... It easy to say the abs scored more tries when they ran up over 100 points against portugal and 80 somthing against romania and 76 against italy

myflipflops

Judgement Day wrote: »

Of course people are entitled to have their opinions on how players are performing but endless carping on about ROG is pathetic. I think Declan Kidney is better placed than anybody posting here to decide whether ROG is good enough to play for Ireland or Munster.

A lot of the posts on this have annoyed me as they basically accuse me of having a pop at O'Gara as a player due to whatever reason. This one annoys me the most though.

At what point do i say say he shouldn't be playing for Ireland? There may be endless carping about him from detractors but that's the first post I can ever recall making about him. I judged his performance in a certain way while watching the game. I was then surprised that media analysis from most quarters judged it differently. I put it to the rugby forum to post their opinions in the cold light of day, away from the hype of the GS. I thought discussing rugby was what this place was about, not pointless cheerleading. O'Gara's performance was key to the development of that match and his form has further repurcussions for the Lions tour. As such, i felt a debate on the 80 minutes of rugby he payed would be relevant (not a debate on him as a player). We have had both good and bad reviews. Then the 'leave O'Gara alone' merchants have chimed up. Personally i think discussing the outhalf of our international rugby team is perfectly fair.

Someone asked why we don't have similar discussion on Luke Fitz or P Wallce? Well, i would guess it's because they aren't half as important to the success of this team as O'Gara is at 10. Everything about the position puts a player more into the spotlight and up for debate than any other on the field.

On a personal note, i remember being in Landsdowne in 1999 when Humphreys missed an 85%er type kick to beat France at the death. I recall walking out and wondering why ireland don't win in those situations. To watch O'Gara slot that goal at the weekend brought me back to that French game and answered the questions i asked that day.

The guy is a gem for ireland, pure and simple. That doesn't mean he played well against Wales though.

walshb

handsomecake wrote: »

before every one starts slating me i am a rugby purist and i like to see it being played with flair and panache.

Well then, I guess you're not a real rugby fan. You are missing out on so
many other aspects of this wonderful game.

Ireland have flair and panache and everything else

BTW, It wasn't so long ago that Ireland were losing countless
matches because they never had a kicker, when Wales and
Scotland and England did; then Ollie Campbell came along and we
started winning, and guess what, the Scots and Welsh wanted the rules changed
because we were winning matches with kicks!

Judgement Day

OP I'm sorry but in answer to the question posed in your first posting - yes, you are being far, far too critical. ROG played well against Wales and shows signs of his old form coming back! Whether he is picked for the Lions is another matter but how he performs for Munster in the Heineken Cup is of more interest to me.

myflipflops

louthandproud wrote: »

Mighty magnanimous of you to join the bandwagon of O'Gara slaters just a few days after he and all of the rest of the team have done us all so proud.

Just one more point - I guarantee you that while most of the country is sitting back and being so proud, Declan Kidney has already sat down with his team of coaches and gone throught he Wales video with a fine tooth comb. The whole championship will be analysed and every irish weakness looked at.

He'll do the same as when Munster won the first of their Heineken Cups - challenge the players to win more. If we ever want to have continued success then relevant criticism is essential. We are celebrating the Grand Slam in a similar manner to England after WC 2003. I think that's fair enough for a country of our size. What we have to wary of is what England have done sit then - they sat back and thought success would breed success. Look where they are now?

If we want to move forward as a rugby nation and have sustained success then wenned to learn NOT to sit back rest on our laurels.

Spore

handsomecake wrote: »

i hated the manner in which england won the world cup in 03 and i hate teams ala argentina or england played "containing rugby" ie to stifle rather then enterprise.
i abhor the rugby munster play.

Pfft, one man's poison is another's pleasure. Have to say I love the pick and drive stuff, playing for position and yes the drop goals when they come - actually it all adds up to thrilling rugby. The Ireland Wales game is being touted as the match of the tournament, a match in which we played "containing rugby" and stopped Wales playing their game - magic stuff. And the result kept in the balance right up to the last penalty, you couldn't write that stuff.

What's boring about it? What's there not to like? I find the "open" matches when its all running and attacking from deep gets boring after a while, Rugby traditionally has been about the phase play and set piece not the League-esque lets have a go from everywhere play. Munster have always been more thrilling to watch than Leinster for this reason, and I'm a Leinster supporter.

RuggieBear

Lads debate the posts not the posters and keep it civil.

I'm getting very very tired of all these on-thread requests for threads to be closed/deleted etc. These posts are derailing threads and often amount to little more than thread spoiling. If you don't think a thread should exist then report it.

Personally i see nothing wrong with a discussion on any player. People have different view points and as long as it can be argued fairly and reasonably and doesn't resort to rubbish like "such and such is ****e" it is fine.

My own view is that ROG is a decent player who hasn't played to the maximum of his ability this season but that could be due to anything from a lack of confidence to the tactic this Ireland team is employing. He played better gainst Wales but hasn't reached the heights of a season or two ago (but individually very few of our players have).

He is by far the best OH in this country and a lot of the criticism he receives is a consequence (I believe) of the fear we all have of what we are going to do should he suffer long term injury/retire.

louthandproud

pwhite587 wrote: »

Just one more point - I guarantee you that while most of the country is sitting back and being so proud, Declan Kidney has already sat down with his team of coaches and gone throught he Wales video with a fine tooth comb. The whole championship will be analysed and every irish weakness looked at.

He'll do the same as when Munster won the first of their Heineken Cups - challenge the players to win more. If we ever want to have continued success then relevant criticism is essential. We are celebrating the Grand Slam in a similar manner to England after WC 2003. I think that's fair enough for a country of our size. What we have to wary of is what England have done sit then - they sat back and thought success would breed success. Look where they are now?

If we want to move forward as a rugby nation and have sustained success then wenned to learn NOT to sit back rest on our laurels.

Yes it's true the management team will be analysing the entire team objectively. Which is pretty much the opposite of what is going on in this thread.

Sabre0001

handsomecake wrote: »

before every one starts slating me i am a rugby purist and i like to see it being played with flair and panache.

i hated the manner in which england won the world cup in 03 and i hate the way the last world cup descended into a drop goal fest where teams prefered not to have the ball then to have the ball and teams ala argentina or england played "containing rugby" ie to stifle rather then enterprise.

for me o gara and ireland and to a huge degree munster are going down this road. i abhor the rugby munster play.
new zealand got knocked out in the quarter final of the last world cup and still scored more tries then any other team(even the eventual winners).

Just on a side-note to respond to this - play to win. New Zealand may be credited with being one of the greatest sides in the world and play an amazing game it has to be said....but they have won ONE World Cup. We bemoan the fact that this is Ireland's first GS in 60-odd years. We should play the game that suits us and gets the job done.

On the O'Gara game. He had a shakey first half but pulled it together. The little chip throughs for Bowe (inches off being perfect with two more). And of course the drop goal - as Paulie said, "it took balls". One reason why NZ were knocked out of the last WC - they had noone who stepped up to take a drop goal until they had been pushed further back and it was a desperation kick. While it wasn't the prettiest drop goal we've seen, it was enough!

Judgement Day

Originally Posted by handsomecake
i hated the manner in which england won the world cup in 03 and i hate teams ala argentina or england played "containing rugby" ie to stifle rather then enterprise.
i abhor the rugby munster play.

God life must be tough for you - what rugby team do you like watching? I love rugby union in all its forms - there are great matches (Ireland/Wales last Saturday) and awful matches (England's 36/11 defeat of Italy on the 7th Feb) .....

England's winning of the 2003 World Cup by Jonny Wilkinson's drop goal was particularly fitting given the contribution that his boot has made to English rugby and here it is again just for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ5tHgET4N4&feature=PlayList&p=6627257C4EAE0830&index=12&playnext=3&playnext_from=PL

Having seen Ireland miss-out so many times made the Grand Slam sweeter still. I watched the highlights again on RTE last night and the last few minutes still brought a tear to the eye!

Catmologen

handsomecake wrote: »

before every one starts slating me i am a rugby purist and i like to see it being played with flair and panache.

i hated the manner in which england won the world cup in 03 and i hate the way the last world cup descended into a drop goal fest where teams prefered not to have the ball then to have the ball and teams ala argentina or england played "containing rugby" ie to stifle rather then enterprise.

for me o gara and ireland and to a huge degree munster are going down this road. i abhor the rugby munster play.

Rugby matches are there to be won, the style that a team is judged to play is completely subjective, I personally think that Munster and Ireland both play cracking brands of rugby and I think most people on here would agree with that. For me ROG had a bad game against England and got away with it as others stepped up. Top players have bad games, thats what happens in sport sometimes. As regards the rest of the tournament I'm more then happy with his contribution tbh.

new zealand got knocked out in the quarter final of the last world cup and still scored more tries then any other team(even the eventual winners).

NZ did have an easy group (in comparison to Ireland for example) thats the only reason they scored more tries then anyone else, as soon as they came up against a good team they choked.

Webbs

handsomecake wrote: »

before every one starts slating me i am a rugby purist and i like to see it being played with flair and panache.

i hated the manner in which england won the world cup in 03 and i hate the way the last world cup descended into a drop goal fest where teams prefered not to have the ball then to have the ball and teams ala argentina or england played "containing rugby" ie to stifle rather then enterprise.

for me o gara and ireland and to a huge degree munster are going down this road. i abhor the rugby munster play.
new zealand got knocked out in the quarter final of the last world cup and still scored more tries then any other team(even the eventual winners).

o gara is not an exponent of good rugby. he is a journey man with a good right peg just like rob andrew or neill jenkins. as it stands daniel carter is the best out half of all time regardless of points scored

As a welshman I love my rugby to be played with the flair you talk about and tries scored, but rugby is and always has been about forwards and backs.

Wales success in the 70s was built on a great pack who allowed the flair to happen, the England WC winning team was a masterclass in forward play, I think personally as a unit they were the best set of forwards to play the game.

Irelands game similarly is built on an excellent set of forwards that is complimented by solid well drilled backs. ROG being the pivot for this type of game.

Take the Ireland Wales game last weekend, Ireland played to their strengths and if you think that this was to stop Wales playing then maybe your right, but Wales were unable to respond to this and the resultant forward battle was a joy to watch neither team able to pull away from the other. Pure theatre better than any 10 try 'thriller' thrown up by the tri-nations in my opinion.

(Having said all that it is a shame that more often than not a power game based around forwards will be a beat a flair game. I wish that there was a more equal outcome, if you get my meaning)

Hazys

handsomecake wrote: »

before every one starts slating me i am a rugby purist and i like to see it being played with flair and panache.

I'm sorry I compeletly disagree with this.

Rugby has become way more tactical in the last 5 years, which i think is great. If you are small, slower and weaker than your opponent you can still beat them by being smarter.

I'm a big American Football fan which is the most tactical complex game in the world. If you are winning in a game with 5 minutes to go, you run with the football (basically put the ball up your jumper) and its up to the other team to stop you to get the ball back. If a coach in that situation with the lead, started throwing the ball and playing high risk football he'd be fired the next day.

The way munster kept the ball for the last 10 minutes of the H cup final was sheer brillance. Biarritz got fustrated that Munster refused to throw the ball out wide and they couldnt stop them. Biarritz got extremely fustrated which could be seen in their interviews after complaining that Munster wouldnt go wide and let them have a chance to come back :rolleyes:. I thought it was excellent tactics from Kidney and he brought the game to a higher level tactically. Biarritz's forwards were tired and the Munster forwards exploited this.

anonymous_joe

RuggieBear wrote: »

Lads debate the posts not the posters and keep it civil.

I'm getting very very tired of all these on-thread requests for threads to be closed/deleted etc. These posts are derailing threads and often amount to little more than thread spoiling. If you don't think a thread should exist then report it.

Personally i see nothing wrong with a discussion on any player. People have different view points and as long as it can be argued fairly and reasonably and doesn't resort to rubbish like "such and such is ****e" it is fine.

My own view is that ROG is a decent player who hasn't played to the maximum of his ability this season but that could be due to anything from a lack of confidence to the tactic this Ireland team is employing. He played better gainst Wales but hasn't reached the heights of a season or two ago (but individually very few of our players have).

He is by far the best OH in this country and a lot of the criticism he receives is a consequence (I believe) of the fear we all have of what we are going to do should he suffer long term injury/retire.

I'm scared to bejesus of the almighty mess we'll be in when he goes.

Paddy Wallace is a greatly talented player, but leans more towards being a 12 than a 10, and Ian Humphreys is also a good player, but not quite in the class of his brother or O'Gara. Other than that there's very little, other than young Keatley and Sexton, both of whom are lacking hte experience we'd need. So that's a definite worry.

As regards 'our Ronan' I think there's a group of people who are fanatical defenders of the guy, no matter what happens. He wasn't too bad against Wales, but they targeted his channel repeatedly, and we were extraordinarily lucky to get away with that - the possibly apocryphal tale of Scotland's game tactic being two words long - target O'Gara is another clear indication of a problem. Keith Wood wrote today (or yesterday) in the Telegraph about the problem of O'Gara being slight, and that it took him a while to recover from the shock of being targeted so much - so why's he being targeted so much?

Well firstly, it's because he's a good attacking player. He's a decent passer, and a very good tactical kicker (though he's had some bad kicking games this tournament.). He is not good running with the ball, which is a huge pity, because with guys like Wallace, D'Arcy, O'Driscoll and a decent back three, a running out-half could open up space for them that would greatly increase the efficacy of our backplay.

In that sense, ROG is both the facilitator of our best back play, and also the one obstacle to Irish backplay - he's a great distributor, but because he's unlikely to run with the ball, our first receiver has more attention on him, preventing him from doing anything, a problem which is then extended along the backline. Without O'Gara then, we wouldn't have the ball to attack, but with him we don't have the same variety of attacks (from the hands, from the boot he offers extraordinary options, this is the 'problem' with the guy).

International rugby is a small club, Ronan O'Gara is on the world's fourth best team right now. (Sadly that sounds right, I really think we'd get beaten by South Africa or New Zealand right now, with Australia being a little better than us, but not by much.) We regularly see out-halves of the calibre of Dan Carter, Matt Giteau, Hernandez, Nick Evans and so on. Leinster our very own Leinster (yay) have had Contepomi for years now (probably a 12 but he's played a fair whack of games at 10) of that kind of group, O'Gara's probably the weakest at running with ball in hand. He's also probably the strongest in terms of tactical kicking.

What remains frightening though, is the gap between him and any replacement, since Humphreys retired, no-one has challenged for the 10 shirt. Wales have Hook and Jones, Scotland Parks, Paterson (sort of) and Godman, England have Flood, Goode, Hodgson, Geraghty, Cipriani, and of course Wilkinson... We've got O'Gara and that's it. If you target him, and make him play badly, there's nothing there, and Ireland can and will lose. That's not O'Gara's fault, but he does at times play badly. He is untouchable because there's no-one else, not because he's infallible.

The drop goal to win was fantastic, not because it was a good kick, it was quite straightforward, but because of the pressure, the moment. To deal wit hthat stress shows enormous strength of character, something not always apparent from O'Gara.

Anyway, a conclusion of sorts, O'Gara is a very good out-half. He's got a great boot tactically and in terms of goal-scoring. His passing and distribution are crucial for Ireland. He is not infallible, nor is he perfect. We need to be able to assess him objectively, and without provincial or any other kind of bias. Moreover, we need to learn that criticising our players when they do badly is allowed, so long as it's not overboard. O'Gara attracts a lot of hysterical criticism at times, I think the England performance, and the earlier stages of teh Welsh performance from him deserve examination and a degree of criticism, he was very good against France, that too deserves examination. He is however, 32, like Davey Wallace, and will be amongst the first of this generation of players to retire, so now is most definitely the time for experimentation to begin.

And I think I will forever be greatful to him for scoring that drop-goal, though if Wales had got that penalty, I don't think I could ever forgive him for some missed kicks. :P

Junior

What was it Deccie Kidney said, for a country where there is probably 100 professional rugby players haven't we done well.

NickNolte

louthandproud wrote: »

Yes it's true the management team will be analysing the entire team objectively. Which is pretty much the opposite of what is going on in this thread.

O'Gara is being viewed objectively on this thread. Most (although not all) of the criticisms are absolutely fine. We're not discussing the entire team, we're discussing our number 10. Accept it, stop requesting the thread to be closed by the mods and either discuss things objectively yourself or stop crying and replying. It's that simple. If you want objectivity, you can pick out a lot of what's been said in this thread already. If you think Ronan O'Gara is the perfect rugby player, beyond criticism and anywhere close to infallible, you're completey wrong.

He should still be given the keys to the city for that drop goal though.

louthandproud

NickNolte wrote: »

O'Gara is being viewed objectively on this thread. Most (although not all) of the criticisms are absolutely fine. We're not discussing the entire team, we're discussing our number 10. Accept it, stop requesting the thread to be closed by the mods and either discuss things objectively yourself or stop crying and replying. It's that simple. If you want objectivity, you can pick out a lot of what's been said in this thread already. If you think Ronan O'Gara is the perfect rugby player, beyond criticism and anywhere close to infallible, you're completey wrong.

He should still be given the keys to the city for that drop goal though.

I haven't asked for the thread to be closed by anyone. Please check before you post!

If the criticisms are objective then why is ROG the only one being singled out(once again). We have had thread after thread of ROG bashing here, before, and now after he saved our bacon against Wales.

I do not believe he is the perfect player or beyond criticism and never said or indicated in anyway that I did think that, but it is getting tiresome at this stage, the same points are being made over and over by the same people.

stephen_n

louthandproud wrote: »

He still may have a Lions career now if that happened, so is it true necessarily? Also I don't think we have a better option(fit) in UK or Ireland right now.

Jones is my 2nd choice, more able for the physical stuff and perhaps has a better goal kicking ratio but doesn't have the hands or boot of ROG in open play IMHO.

I fail to see how you could say Jones is inferior in passing to O'Gara considering how well the Welsh backline moves when they get any ball from the forwards compared to how little the Irish backline does. ROG is clearly better with the boot but not even close to Jones with ball in hand!

The attitude displayed by some people in this thread sums up why Ireland don't win more competitively in all sports, the attitude Roy Keane spoke about of being good enough to make it to the party and that's all that matters. In no way am I undermining or underestimating the achievement of winning the GS or the part that ROG played in that. But why shouldn't it be discussed the areas that we could improve on or how particular players performed. the Irish team will have taken a look at each of their performances and focused on the mistakes because that's how Kidney and all good coaches work, never focus on the things you do right but learn from what you did wrong in the hope of improving like this squad did after the autumn internationals. The 9/10 access is the pivotal one in Rugby so of course it is up for scrutiny but some people think this is personal and I don't know why, probably a throw back to our tribal ancestory which has always dogged the Irish!

I like other posters watched the match stone cold sober and on my own so my views are less tainted by emotion and other factors. I have criticised ROG's performances in the green jersey in the last two years every bit as much as I would have praised them prior to that. Simple fact is I don't think he is performing as well as he did when he had serious competition for his place. Let's look at the game on Saturday though as that's what the thread is about. He got targeted in this game as he will in all games as he is perceived by other countries to be a week link in defence and that won't be changing anytime soon so he will have to get used to it. He did look a little shell shocked at times but although he didn't make a lot of tackles he still stood up to it and at least slowed the runner down till a second tackler arrived. Maybe as a result of this his kicking was off in the first half, slicing two kicks from hand and not really doing anything productive kicking from hand till after half time when he was instructed to kick in behind Williams because Lee Byrne was out of the equation and pretty boy Henson was not going to cover as well. This suited ROG's natural game and I doubt there is a better outhalf in the world at doing those deft kicks for wingers to run on to. Lets now look at his running game and how he controlled our backline. Again maybe as a result of the pounding in defence he was timid and afraid he was standing deep for the whole game up to ten yards back which gives little or no opportunity for the runners outside him to make headway as they are receiving the ball at least 10 yards behind the gain line. On two seperate occasions he received the ball and turned around looking for someone to off load to with no idea what to do with the ball and that is not good enough for and international 10. He took the drop goal well in terms of nerve at that stage of a game but in fairness as he said himself and POC pointed out he hit it arseways but well enough to do the trick.
6/10

ROG has been a great servant to Irish rugby but to exempt any player from criticism because of past glories is stupid. We need another outhalf pushing him or replacing him or this team will progress no further and maybe that is good enough for some people but it isn't for me!

NickNolte

louthandproud wrote: »

I haven't asked for the thread to be closed by anyone. Please check before you post!

I was speaking in general. Someone's been asking (very childishly and unreasonably) that the thread be closed. Not you, obviously.

louthandproud wrote: »

If the criticisms are objective then why is ROG the only one being singled out(once again).

Jesus wept. He's our Number 10. Our key playmaker. He's naturally going to be the focus of more attention and criticism than any other player on the field, particularly if he has a shaky day at the office. It's not a personal attack on the man who, I think we can agree, we all respect. What do you not understand here?

louthandproud wrote: »

and now after he saved our bacon against Wales.

So does that mean that we shouldn't criticise him when he plays poorly? Your argument is absolutely bonkers. There are serious rugby fans discussing serious rugby issues here. Nobody's pulling ROG's pigtails for fun.

louthandproud wrote: »

I do not believe he is the perfect player or beyond criticism and never said or indicated in anyway that I did think that, but it is getting tiresome at this stage, the same points are being made over and over by the same people.

That match was on Saturday and people are discussing it. He had an even worse game (shocking actually) against England, and people were discussing that. People on the rugby forum do that. You know... discuss rugby.

Anyway, this is ridiculous. I'm arguing whether a perfectly valid thread is valid or not. I can't be bothered anymore. :pac:

kevmy

Thought he played okay about the best he played all tournament but then he had a bad tournament.

The best asset Rog has is his mental strength. He is just as likely to miss a kick under no pressure as he is under great pressure which is really unusual. Most kickers feel pressure big time I think only Wilkinson and Patterson are as good in that regard (I reckon they are better place kickers out there but not under pressure).

Tbh was never sold on Jones but he has had a pretty decent season and I think it's still up in the air between them for the Lions and it could all come down to how Rog plays with Munster, I reckon if he hits good form he'll get the 10 jersey if he continues the way he is, then sorry, but bench time

louthandproud

NickNolte wrote: »

I was speaking in general. Someone's been asking (very childishly and unreasonably) that the thread be closed. Not you, obviously.

Yes not me. Obviously!

NickNolte wrote: »

Jesus wept. He's our Number 10. Our key playmaker. He's naturally going to be the focus of more attention and criticism than any other player on the field, particularly if he has a shaky day at the office. It's not a personal attack on the man who, I think we can agree, we all respect. What do you not understand here?

I understand it all, there's getting more of the attention and then there's getting it all yet again.

NickNolte wrote: »

So does that mean that we shouldn't criticise him when he plays poorly? Your argument is absolutely bonkers. There are serious rugby fans discussing serious rugby issues here. Nobody's pulling ROG's pigtails for fun.

Did I say that? how can an argument I didn't make be a bonkers one.

NickNolte wrote: »

That match was on Saturday and people are discussing it. He had an even worse game (shocking actually) against England, and people were discussing that. People on the rugby forum do that. You know... discuss rugby.

Yes he had a bad game against England. I am also discussing rugby so yes I think I get it.

NickNolte wrote: »

Anyway, this is ridiculous. I'm arguing whether a perfectly valid thread is valid or not. I can't be bothered anymore.

Good.


[/QUOTE]

Dub973

walshb wrote: »

Can't perform when it really matters?

So, was that drop goal not performing then?

The guy is a fantastic player and it is widely agreed that for Ireland to
triumph, Ronan has to play well; and he more than not, does!

He's the 6 Nations top points scorer, yet he can't perform when it
matters. I happen to recall him performing many times when
it mattered!

Seriously, who the hell are we comparing him to.
He's quite possibly one of the best in his position
in the world, at least in the 6 Nations and
some think he's not up to it?

I'm comparing him to the likes of BOD and Paul oconnell. Although ogara scores alot,he gets almost all of them in mickey mouse games. He I the kicker so he's gonna be a high scorer,I don't see him score many tries though

louthandproud

stephen_n wrote: »

I fail to see how you could say Jones is inferior in passing to O'Gara considering how well the Welsh backline moves when they get any ball from the forwards compared to how little the Irish backline does. ROG is clearly better with the boot but not even close to Jones with ball in hand!

I watched the game sober too and have watched it several times since. If you think the Welsh backline was moving better than Ireland's last Saturday maybe you should have had a drink.

louthandproud

Dub973 wrote: »

I'm comparing him to the likes of BOD and Paul oconnell. Although ogara scores alot,he gets almost all of them in mickey mouse games. He I the kicker so he's gonna be a high scorer,I don't see him score many tries though

He's an out half.....gets a few tries but not really the position for regular try scoring.

RuggieBear

Dub973 wrote: »

I'm comparing him to the likes of BOD and Paul oconnell. Although ogara scores alot,he gets almost all of them in mickey mouse games. He I the kicker so he's gonna be a high scorer,I don't see him score many tries though

and that is simply not comparing like with like.

as the kicker he scores consistently against all teams (except for the odd shocker which he had had against teams like england, new zealand and italy)

i believe he has scored 9 tries which is not bad considering the nature of irelands game plan

stephen_n

louthandproud wrote: »

I watched the game sober too and have watched it several times since. If you think the Welsh backline was moving better than Ireland's last Saturday maybe you should have had a drink.

M8 the Irish backline didn't really move on Saturday but more importantly if you read my original post it's says when there forwards get ball which they didn't on Saturday and certainly didn't in the Irish half. Also Kidney attacked the welsh squeeze ball on first phase which meant there was less quick ball in open play for there backline to run with.

Since you have watched the game so many times!
(a) did you notice where O'Gara was receiving the ball?
(b) did you notice the occasions when O'Gara had the ball in hand without an idea what to do with it?
(c) when did O'Gara move the Irish backline?

rugbynut

I think ROG has been below par all through the campaign - however he is coming through this period and each game sees him getting better. I think he'll be back to his old self in a few more matches.
However, I don't like his interviews. I know he is entitle to say it as he sees it, but I believe that should be left to people who consistently perform at a very high level. ROG is not included in that category.

Dub973

RuggieBear wrote: »

and that is simply not comparing like with like.

as the kicker he scores consistently against all teams (except for the odd shocker which he had had against teams like england, new zealand and italy)

i believe he has scored 9 tries which is not bad considering the nature of irelands game plan

He is the decision maker and his decisions were appauling against Wales. The man is a wimp in my opinion and had the balls to kick the drop goal,fair dos! However he can't perform to his usual standards on the big stage

walshb

A wimp?

I assume you mean a wimp because he is not strong?

Just because he's not 6 feet 6 and 19 stone doesn't
mean he's a wimp. He's in a position that requires
speed and timing and a big man is not suited.

II would say that p4p, he is a very capable man on the pitch

louthandproud

Dub973 wrote: »

He is the decision maker and his decisions were appauling against Wales. The man is a wimp in my opinion and had the balls to kick the drop goal,fair dos! However he can't perform to his usual standards on the big stage

Objective or what?

thehighground

Dub973 wrote: »

Although ogara scores alot,he gets almost all of them in mickey mouse games. He I the kicker so he's gonna be a high scorer,I don't see him score many tries though

ROG's try scoring record might surprise you: :rolleyes:

ROG (93 caps) = 14t 144c 173p 14dg
Jonny - the drop goal king (76 caps) = 7t 151c 225p 29dg
Stephen Jones (83 caps) = 6t 118c 142p 5dg
David Humphreys (70 caps) = 6t 88c 110p 8dg

His best season (when he had no competition for his position either ) was 2007 when he was top points scorer & try scorer in the 6Ns. He also scored the first try (against France) in Croke Park.

No matter what twist you might want to put on it, ROG gets more points per game than any other active OH in the NH.

dub_skav

louthandproud wrote: »

If the criticisms are objective then why is ROG the only one being singled out(once again). We have had thread after thread of ROG bashing here, before, and now after he saved our bacon against Wales.

The reason this thread was started and the thrust of many of the posters here is that ROG received glowing praise and even a 9/10 rating for this game. Many people are saying that while he stood up mightily in the 2nd half we should not be revisionist in our view of the players and gloss over poorer sections of matches.

The reason there is no thread on other players is that the media have not exalted anybody else in spite of their shortcomings, e.g. O'Driscoll deserves all his plaudits while the media are keeping (relatively) quiet about D'Arcy, Horan, Hayes and Fitzgerald etc because they were solid but not spectacular.

The thread was not intended as ROG bashing, but more as a bit of perspective.

I agree that no player should be consistently picked on and slated, but regardless of previous threads on O'Gara this one is an objective one - or at least started that way

Judgement Day

thehighground wrote: »

ROG's try scoring record might surprise you: :rolleyes:

ROG (93 caps) = 14t 144c 173p 14dg
Jonny - the drop goal king (76 caps) = 7t 151c 225p 29dg
Stephen Jones (83 caps) = 6t 118c 142p 5dg
David Humphreys (70 caps) = 6t 88c 110p 8dg

His best season (when he had no competition for his position either ) was 2007 when he was top points scorer & try scorer in the 6Ns. He also scored the first try (against France) in Croke Park.

No matter what twist you might want to put on it, ROG gets more points per game than any other active OH in the NH.

Nah! Now you're just being pedantic. ROG must go, now where's my rope for the lynch mob. :rolleyes:

thehighground

dub_skav wrote: »

The reason this thread was started and the thrust of many of the posters here is that ROG received glowing praise and even a 9/10 rating for this game. Many people are saying that while he stood up mightily in the 2nd half we should not be revisionist in our view of the players and gloss over poorer sections of matches.

The reason there is no thread on other players is that the media have not exalted anybody else in spite of their shortcomings, e.g. O'Driscoll deserves all his plaudits while the media are keeping (relatively) quiet about D'Arcy, Horan, Hayes and Fitzgerald etc because they were solid but not spectacular.

The thread was not intended as ROG bashing, but more as a bit of perspective.

I agree that no player should be consistently picked on and slated, but regardless of previous threads on O'Gara this one is an objective one - or at least started that way

There were no articles/threads singling any of these players for being Tom Kite/bottlers etc. either.

Everyone says (including himself) he didn't have a great first half against Wales. But he pulled the rabbit out of the hat at the end with the DG.

I just checked around to see if there were any article on Stephen Jones (who in my opinion also had a good game at the weekend), and despite making the error by kicking the ball out on full and missing the final kick and losing the game, I haven't come across any articles / website slating him for it.

I'm with Dennis Hickie on this one. The criticism that ROG gets is just way over the top. Without him, we would not have had any triple crowns or grand slam. Is it any wonder he found it hard to play in a green jersey?

walshb

Holy ****, what are some expecting here. I think far too much analysis is being
employed here. Ronan isn't superman, he makes mistakes, he gets it wrong, he kick wide, poor, short, long etc etc. He's a rugby player who is not INFALLIBLE; who is infallible?

Bottom line is, the guy has consistently been our best player at his position, a world beater and a massive points scorer (job he's meant to do).

Is he perfect? No, nobody is and Rugby is so not the perfect game. It is won and lost on mistakes and skill and luck and referees.

Look at Ronan's stats; that is how he really should be judged. They are quite brilliant and he did it at the top of the game and against the cream of the crop.

There is no such thing as the perfect sports star and Ronan is no different; but he has been
a hell of a talent and bonus to the Irish team. I rate him as important as BOD in the grand scheme of things and when Ronan plays well, the team plays well.

Judgement Day

walshb wrote: »

Holy ****, what are some expecting here. I think far too much analysis is being
employed here. Ronan isn't superman, he makes mistakes, he gets it wrong, he kick wide, poor, short, long etc etc. He's a rugby player who is not INFALLIBLE; who is infallible?

Bottom line is, the guy has consistently been our best player at his position, a world beater and a massive points scorer (job he's meant to do).

Is he perfect? No, nobody is and Rugby is so not the perfect game. It is won and lost on mistakes and skill and luck and referees.

Look at Ronan's stats; that is how he really should be judged. They are quite brilliant and he did it at the top of the game and against the cream of the crop.

There is no such thing as the perfect sports star and Ronan is no different; but he has been
a hell of a talent and bonus to the Irish team. I rate him as important as BOD in the grand scheme of things and when Ronan plays well, the team plays well.

No, no, the man is a 'wimp', and cannot play rugby at all - let's string him up now!

myflipflops

louthandproud wrote: »

Yes it's true the management team will be analysing the entire team objectively. Which is pretty much the opposite of what is going on in this thread.

This was a very objective thread for the first couple of pages. I'd start at thread on every players performance from Saturday if i felt the need - the fact is, i though most other players were analysed in line to how i saw it 9either postiviely or negatively) and therefore didn't see the need.

myflipflops

dub_skav wrote: »

The reason this thread was started and the thrust of many of the posters here is that ROG received glowing praise and even a 9/10 rating for this game. Many people are saying that while he stood up mightily in the 2nd half we should not be revisionist in our view of the players and gloss over poorer sections of matches.

The reason there is no thread on other players is that the media have not exalted anybody else in spite of their shortcomings, e.g. O'Driscoll deserves all his plaudits while the media are keeping (relatively) quiet about D'Arcy, Horan, Hayes and Fitzgerald etc because they were solid but not spectacular.

The thread was not intended as ROG bashing, but more as a bit of perspective.

I agree that no player should be consistently picked on and slated, but regardless of previous threads on O'Gara this one is an objective one - or at least started that way

Thank you, exaclty how i meant it. I don't see how it could be taken any other way re-reading my opening post. The idea that I'm having a pop at O'Gara as a player is just wrong.

Dub973

Judgement Day wrote: »

Nah! Now you're just being pedantic. ROG must go, now where's my rope for the lynch mob. :rolleyes:

I agree completely,I know he scores points but he's a liability in defence,you don't see him tackling the big guys like BOD! BOD like characters are what we need