O Gara performance v Wales

Chucky the tree

walshb wrote: »

A wimp?

I assume you mean a wimp because he is not strong?

Just because he's not 6 feet 6 and 19 stone doesn't
mean he's a wimp. He's in a position that requires
speed and timing and a big man is not suited.

II would say that p4p, he is a very capable man on the pitch

I think wimp is a bit harsh but he definitly shirks contact and his size(or lack of, whatever) has nothing to do with it.

Dub973 wrote: »

I agree completely,I know he scores points but he's a liability in defence,you don't see him tackling the big guys like BOD! BOD like characters are what we need

Goodluck finding a out-half who can tackle like BOD and is eligible for to play for Ireland.

stephen_n

thehighground wrote: »

Everyone says (including himself) he didn't have a great first half against Wales. But he pulled the rabbit out of the hat at the end with the DG.

Right so we should ignore the 90 minutes of play look at the drop goal and the chip through and say he single handedly won it for Irealnd?

Or

We can look at the game as a whole and see his kicking from hand apart from three kicks over the top for Bowe in the second half was inconsistent too poor. He stood deep which constricted the play outside him and as I said earlier on at least two occasions received the ball and stood looking round himself for a forward to offload to. He needed to have the coaching staff point out to him the obvious weakness of Henson at full back at least that would be a reasonable inference since he didn't start using that tactic till after half time! But as the OP said he got a 9/10 performance doubt Stephen Jones got that!

There is a lot of talk about objectivity in these last few pages but not one of the ROG is untouchable posters has denied these weakness's in his game on Saturday instead you keep trying to make it an anti O'Gara thread. To ignore his flaws is no more ridiculous than to say he is a wimp (which IMO is laughable)

GreeBo

I agree that ROG was poor and no where near 9/10 on Saturday. I think he looses his cool very easily and you often see him getting into pathetic shouting matches with the opposition. Fair enough he kept it for the DG, but it was hardly a difficult kick for a "world class professional" now was it? Id be disappointed if the SCT out half missed that one.

If he was being put under so much pressure by Wales then why didnt he stand a bit deeper to give himself more time? Maybe then he could set the half backs up with a few decent passes?
His penalty kicks from hand are not terribly good as he doesnt make as much ground as he should, even on the ones he doesnt slice, he doesnt exactly have a massive boot.
His restarts are mostly terribly, traveling far too far and giving the opposition an easy platform to build on. His GO's are also not good, Carney does much better and actually wins some of his.

Its all well and good saying we have no one else and that he is the best OH Ireland has, but that doesnt make him 9/10 material.

Catmologen

stephen_n wrote: »

Right so we should ignore the 90 minutes of play look at the drop goal and the chip through and say he single handedly won it for Irealnd?

Or

We can look at the game as a whole and see his kicking from hand apart from three kicks over the top for Bowe in the second half was inconsistent too poor. He stood deep which constricted the play outside him and as I said earlier on at least two occasions received the ball and stood looking round himself for a forward to offload to. He needed to have the coaching staff point out to him the obvious weakness of Henson at full back at least that would be a reasonable inference since he didn't start using that tactic till after half time! But as the OP said he got a 9/10 performance doubt Stephen Jones got that!

There is a lot of talk about objectivity in these last few pages but not one of the ROG is untouchable posters has denied these weakness's in his game on Saturday instead you keep trying to make it an anti O'Gara thread. To ignore his flaws is no more ridiculous than to say he is a wimp (which IMO is laughable)

Tbh i dont think anyone is gonna remember the 1st half in the future, for me its irrelevant if someone has a poor first half as long as they make a positive contribution to the game over 80 mins and we go on to win the match, especially in such a tight game.
Using a (supposedly) poor first half performance as a stick to beat ROG with, considering what he contributed to the game is completely unfair imo.

louthandproud

stephen_n wrote: »

There is a lot of talk about objectivity in these last few pages but not one of the ROG is untouchable posters has denied these weakness's in his game on Saturday instead you keep trying to make it an anti O'Gara thread. To ignore his flaws is no more ridiculous than to say he is a wimp (which IMO is laughable)

Don't remember anyone saying that he was untouchable or a 9/10 performer last Saturday(even though I'd give him 9/10 for 2nd half), what people are saying is to go a little easy on the guy, it seems every time he has a mis-kick there's thread on here pointing out his flaws, which to me smacks of something a little more than the need to debate objectively his performance last Saturday.

He was standing too deep...

He should have stood deeper....

He can't pass.....

He can't kick....

He can't tackle...

He can't take the pressure.....lol the loudest at this one..

Guess who's not rated in the SH...

He's a wimp....

etc. etc.. etc...

To the OP, you may have started this thread with all the good intentions in the world but unfortunately there are enough bandwagon ROG critics on here to corrupt any chance of a balanced discussion.

thehighground

stephen_n wrote: »

Right so we should ignore the 90 minutes of play look at the drop goal and the chip through and say he single handedly won it for Irealnd?

Where did I say he won it singlehandedly? I said he contributed a DG and a pretty good assist for Bowe's try. BOD's DG against England was also (rightly) lauded.

We can look at the game as a whole and see his kicking from hand apart from three kicks over the top for Bowe in the second half was inconsistent too poor. He stood deep which constricted the play outside him and as I said earlier on at least two occasions received the ball and stood looking round himself for a forward to offload to. He needed to have the coaching staff point out to him the obvious weakness of Henson at full back at least that would be a reasonable inference since he didn't start using that tactic till after half time! But as the OP said he got a 9/10 performance doubt Stephen Jones got that!

Lee Byrne went off five minutes before half time He said himself he didn't have a good first half. He was targetted as the link defensive link. How many tries did Wales score down his channel, then?

I presume tactics would have been discussed at half time, otherwise why bother with coaches, but I think suggesting that five minutes before half time he should have changed tactics is being a bit picky (though its surprising that BOD didn't point it out to him, wouldn't you think if it was so obvious that he should be doing that).

There is a lot of talk about objectivity in these last few pages but not one of the ROG is untouchable posters has denied these weakness's in his game on Saturday instead you keep trying to make it an anti O'Gara thread. To ignore his flaws is no more ridiculous than to say he is a wimp (which IMO is laughable)

We are not ignoring his flaws - I, like Denis Hickie and a good few posters here think ROG's game is over analysed. It doesn't help when it is fairly obvious (to me anyway) that some posters just want to have a go at ROG.

I think I saw a stat that over the entire 6Ns, ROG missed 7 tackles - just two more than BOD - defensive god that he is.

louthandproud

thehighground wrote: »

We are not ignoring his flaws - I, like Denis Hickie and a good few posters here think ROG's game is over analysed. It doesn't help when it is fairly obvious (to me anyway) that some posters just want to have a go at ROG.

Fairly obvious to me also. Actually VERY obvious.

Ginja Ninja

unfortunately he is over analysed but the fact that most people forget is he is a pivotal player in the irish team in almost every match his kicking is dominated by making huge gains in territory and IMO if he broke his leg tomorrow and was out for a season we wouldn't be half the team we are now.If you look at the weekends match o'driscolls try came froma near perfect kick to the corner by ROG (and a fantastic line out BTW)

NickNolte

What a retarded thread. O'Gara had a poor 6 Nations overall with some flashes of excellence (the second half of the Wales game notably). Anyone who disagrees is being biased/dishonest or just doesn't know anything about rugby. Lock the bloody thing.

RuggieBear

Dub973 wrote: »

I agree completely,I know he scores points but he's a liability in defence,you don't see him tackling the big guys like BOD! BOD like characters are what we need

i think you are trolling now. Don't post on this thread again.

Next person on this thread or any other who asks (on thread) for it to be locked will be banned.

Trojan

I think he was better than most other #10s in the competition. However, he wasn't up to his own high standards. He may well have played himself out of the Lions starting side due to inconsistent performances.

stephen_n

Catmologen wrote: »

Tbh i dont think anyone is gonna remember the 1st half in the future, for me its irrelevant if someone has a poor first half as long as they make a positive contribution to the game over 80 mins and we go on to win the match, especially in such a tight game.
Using a (supposedly) poor first half performance as a stick to beat ROG with, considering what he contributed to the game is completely unfair imo.

I don't think he had a great second half either. In fact when i'm refering to him standing to deep that is a specific reference to his second half performance when we were trying to run the ball a bit more I am rating his overall opinion in my view that is all but it seems to make any criticism of how he played is not acceptable in certain quarters on here!

thehighground wrote: »

Where did I say he won it singlehandedly? I said he contributed a DG and a pretty good assist for Bowe's try. BOD's DG against England was also (rightly) lauded.



Lee Byrne went off five minutes before half time He said himself he didn't have a good first half. He was targetted as the link defensive link. How many tries did Wales score down his channel, then?

I presume tactics would have been discussed at half time, otherwise why bother with coaches, but I think suggesting that five minutes before half time he should have changed tactics is being a bit picky (though its surprising that BOD didn't point it out to him, wouldn't you think if it was so obvious that he should be doing that).


We are not ignoring his flaws - I, like Denis Hickie and a good few posters here think ROG's game is over analysed. It doesn't help when it is fairly obvious (to me anyway) that some posters just want to have a go at ROG.

I think I saw a stat that over the entire 6Ns, ROG missed 7 tackles - just two more than BOD - defensive god that he is.

As to the first part of your reply i was being sarcastic for effect after you finished your previous post using those two aspects of his game as a reason for saying he had a good game, i was saying to look at his overall game, not serioulsy suggesting that you thought that!

As for your second point 5 mins can turn a game in international rugby. It took less than that for us the score our two tries. All the stats in the world won't change a simple fact that anyone who has played rugby will know and that is it is up to the outhalf to control a game and dictate the play including reading changes in the opposition!

I have not criticised his defence because although he is not a good tackler he doesn't dodge tackles he stands tall and gets run over so any suggestion that he is a coward in my opinion is stupid and irrelevant he just isn't technically any good at tackling.

As I have repeatedly said O'Gara is a good outhalf certainly the best option we have at the moment but we need to look at blooding a replacement because in my opinion he hasn't performed to his capabilities since the WC in 07 but does that mean we can't rate his game?

thehighground

stephen_n wrote: »

I don't think he had a great second half either. In fact when i'm refering to him standing to deep that is a specific reference to his second half performance when we were trying to run the ball a bit more I am rating his overall opinion in my view that is all but it seems to make any criticism of how he played is not acceptable in certain quarters on here!

As for your second point 5 mins can turn a game in international rugby. It took less than that for us the score our two tries. All the stats in the world won't change a simple fact that anyone who has played rugby will know and that is it is up to the outhalf to control a game and dictate the play including reading changes in the opposition!

You are moving the goalposts now and moving onto the 2nd half. Lets finish off the 1st half critique first. As far as I remember, Wales got two penalties in the last 5/6 minutes of the first half and Wales were in the Irish half of the pitch. There was also a Line Out as well (where ROG make a break and someone impeded a Welsh player which resulted in the 2nd Welsh penalty). Seems to me ROG wouldn't have got too much of the ball in the right field position to exploit Gavin Henson now at full back.

You actually claim that the Irish coaching staff had to tell ROG to change tactics at half time! Were you in the dressing room to know this?

I think there were posters on here very criticial of Gaffney earlier on in the competition for having the backs standing too flat! So basically, we've discussed this all before. As well as that, O'Gara took a real pounding from the Welsh and they were on top of him immediately.

I have not criticised his defence because although he is not a good tackler he doesn't dodge tackles he stands tall and gets run over so any suggestion that he is a coward in my opinion is stupid and irrelevant he just isn't technically any good at tackling.

Whatever.

As I have repeatedly said O'Gara is a good outhalf certainly the best option we have at the moment but we need to look at blooding a replacement because in my opinion he hasn't performed to his capabilities since the WC in 07 but does that mean we can't rate his game?

The dogs in the street know we need a replacement OH - We are all sick to the teeth of hearing it. Do you think Declan Kidney is unaware of it, bearing in mind he was responsible for the only provincial team to actually have top notch OH & SH + backups in Ireland? Unfortunately for Ireland, the only back-up OH close enough to being able to lace ROG's boots at this moment in time is not qualified to play for Ireland.

stephen_n

thehighground wrote: »

You are moving the goalposts now and moving onto the 2nd half. Lets finish off the 1st half critique first. As far as I remember, Wales got two penalties in the last 5/6 minutes of the first half and Wales were in the Irish half of the pitch. There was also a Line Out as well (where ROG make a break and someone impeded a Welsh player which resulted in the 2nd Welsh penalty). Seems to me ROG wouldn't have got too much of the ball in the right field position to exploit Gavin Henson now at full back.

You actually claim that the Irish coaching staff had to tell ROG to change tactics at half time! Were you in the dressing room to know this?

I think there were posters on here very criticial of Gaffney earlier on in the competition for having the backs standing too flat! So basically, we've discussed this all before. As well as that, O'Gara took a real pounding from the Welsh and they were on top of him immediately.



Whatever.



The dogs in the street know we need a replacement OH - We are all sick to the teeth of hearing it. Do you think Declan Kidney is unaware of it, bearing in mind he was responsible for the only provincial team to actually have top notch OH & SH + backups in Ireland? Unfortunately for Ireland, the only back-up OH close enough to being able to lace ROG's boots at this moment in time is not qualified to play for Ireland.

The second half comment was aimed at the poster who accused me of saying he had a bad game solely on his first half performance to which I clarified not moved the goalposts as my views were always about his whole game not just various parts of it!

As for the end of the first half and as to if he needed to be told by the coaching staff you don't know and I don't know so there is no real room for debate on that one! Oh and by the way if you read my original post PROPERLY I didn't say I knew this I said it was a reasonable inference!

As for where the backs stand I wasn't involved in that debate so don't know but the results of O'Gara standing flat were self evident in BOD's try against the French so why would Gafney request he step back?

To the finger clicking whatever comment are you seriously going to try and suggest that ROG is a good tackler?? Now that would be funny

We will never have a decent replacement outhalf unless the players coming through like Sexton,Keatley and possibly Humphries are given game time the same way ROG was brought through into the Irish setup

thehighground

stephen_n wrote: »

The second half comment was aimed at the poster who accused me of saying he had a bad game solely on his first half performance to which I clarified not moved the goalposts as my views were always about his whole game not just various parts of it!

As for the end of the first half and as to if he needed to be told by the coaching staff you don't know and I don't know so there is no real room for debate on that one! Oh and by the way if you read my original post PROPERLY I didn't say I knew this I said it was a reasonable inference!

I actually don't have a big issue with whether it was pointed out to him or not that Henson was weaker than Byrne at fullback (in the heat of battle, under pressure, etc). I'm sure Tommy Bowe would have been over like a shot to tell him what to do if it was possible anyway! btw, ever notice who Munster use for waterboys?

This is what you claimed in your post - does not sound like a reasonable inference (and why I checked the RBS6nations website to see what time Byrne had come off at): "He needed to have the coaching staff point out to him the obvious weakness of Henson at full back at least that would be a reasonable inference since he didn't start using that tactic till after half time!"

As for where the backs stand I wasn't involved in that debate so don't know but the results of O'Gara standing flat were self evident in BOD's try against the French so why would Gafney request he step back?

Some posters felt that there would be more opportunity for the backs to score tries if they were running onto the ball with pace. Gaffney's similar type tactics in Leinster seemed to be favoured and they were not scoring tries. However, Leinster have the best defence in the Heineken Cup I think!

To the finger clicking whatever comment are you seriously going to try and suggest that ROG is a good tackler?? Now that would be funny

All I'll say, as I've been saying all along - ROG is over-analysed at this stage. But you can listen to what Les Kis has to say on the ruggamatrix podcast (broadcast to the SH). He was laughing that everyone attacks ROG's channel, and none of them seem to learn that no one gets anywhere. He said he has no worries whatsoever with ROG defence.

http://www.ruggamatrix.com/

We will never have a decent replacement outhalf unless the players coming through like Sexton,Keatley and possibly Humphries are given game time the same way ROG was brought through into the Irish setup

We will never have a decent replacement outhalf until the provinces start playing Irish qualified OHs. By the time ROG got his first Ireland cap, he had played in a team that won away in France (SF & Toulouse) and missed a kick that lost Munster the Heineken Cup (at the age of 21). That is the kind of experience he has.

Would you have been happy to see Sexton, Keatly or Humphreys out on the pitch on Saturday for the last 20 minutes of such a tight game?

Actually, would you have been happy to see any of them on the bench for any of the games we played in this 6Ns? I certainly can't think of one anyway. They were all very tight.

Sexton, Keatley & Humphreys need to get out the finger and prove themselves at provincial level first. There should be no cheap caps. Give me Paddy Wallace any day.

anonymous_joe

Well one of the big problems with rugby is that unlike football, certain positions are a lot less flexible.

Rob Kearney, Gordon D'Arcy, Luke Fitzgerald, Girvan Dempsey and Geordan Murphy all have common?

They're all originally full backs from Leinster.

In successive years of watching Senior Cup rugby in Leinster, I saw Luke Fitzgerald prove the difference between his school and mine twice (along with Artemiev actually) and Kearney do the same once. Kearney's younger brother was almost the difference one year, and in the same position.

Often enough, your best players will end up as full backs or out-halves. There's a lot of competition for those berths, but where fullbacks often end up as wingers or centres, outhalves tend to end up as 10s or full back/inside centres. Not quite the same demand.

It means there's absolutely fúck all scope for player development in that position. Guys like O'Gara, Wilkinson and Carter got their foot in the door early, usually as a result of older lads retiring and the younger guy getting the nod. All three of them have to one extent or another retarded the development of other out-halves in their nations.

We're not alone in being overly reliant on one player.

Personally, I think the best policy, not necessarily for winning games, is to follow a similar model to the Welsh where you rotate your out-halves so frequently you don't have a certain 10, and perhaps even extend that to provincial level. If O'Gara had been rotated every week with say Staunton, and the same had been done for Eoghan Hickey or someone of that ilk, they might have developed better.

Worryingly there are almsot as many Irish out-halves in the English league than there are in the Celtic League (Hickey, Staunton, Brett or something at Northampton) versus Keatley, O'Gara, Humphreys, O'Connor and Sexton. Fairly worrying.

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

It means there's absolutely fúck all scope for player development in that position. Guys like O'Gara, Wilkinson and Carter got their foot in the door early, usually as a result of older lads retiring and the younger guy getting the nod. All three of them have to one extent or another retarded the development of other out-halves in their nations.

I think its more than that. It more like these guys had the extra couple of inches in the head to stick with it and put in the hours of practice that is necessary.

A couple of weeks ago, it was mentioned in the Irish Times that the Irish rugby squad were given the day off. I thought it was interesting that it was ROG & Tomas O'Leary who chose to spend their day off practicising kicking in Croke Park with the Irish kicking coach (no Paddy Wallace, Sexton or any other hopefuls there prepared to put in the extra required hours it would seem!).

thomond2006

We should create a sticky ROG thread, we're wasting space discussing him to death.

Utopia Parkway

I actually thought he had a decent enough game the last day. People are making a big deal that he got thumped by some big Welsh runners in the first half but ROG is never going to knock back opposition players with tackles. He just doesn't have the size or upper body strength or leg drive to do it against guys that are 17 or 18 stone of pure muscle. He doesn't shirk tackles though. He attempts them even if he does get run over occasionly. Apart from that I don't remember him playing particularly badly in the first half apart from missing one difficult but kickable penalty. Second half I thought he played really well to be honest. His kicking in behind Shane Williams had the Welsh defence at sixes and sevens and of course he came good at the death when it was all down to him and his right foot.

He had two fairly poor games against Italy and especially England but he recovered to play pretty well in the last two against Scotland and Wales.

thomond2006

louthandproud wrote: »

=
To the OP, you may have started this thread with all the good intentions in the world but unfortunately there are enough bandwagon ROG critics on here to corrupt any chance of a balanced discussion.

+1

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

I think its more than that. It more like these guys had the extra couple of inches in the head to stick with it and put in the hours of practice that is necessary.

A couple of weeks ago, it was mentioned in the Irish Times that the Irish rugby squad were given the day off. I thought it was interesting that it was ROG & Tomas O'Leary who chose to spend their day off practicising kicking in Croke Park with the Irish kicking coach (no Paddy Wallace, Sexton or any other hopefuls there prepared to put in the extra required hours it would seem!).

And I remember the old stories about Wilkinson spending 3 hours practicing his kicking on Christmas Day.

I do think though, that the low number of spaces for out-halves at the top level is seriously impeding development...

stephen_n

thehighground wrote: »

1. Some posters felt that there would be more opportunity for the backs to score tries if they were running onto the ball with pace. Gaffney's similar type tactics in Leinster seemed to be favoured and they were not scoring tries. However, Leinster have the best defence in the Heineken Cup I think!



2. All I'll say, as I've been saying all along - ROG is over-analysed at this stage. But you can listen to what Les Kis has to say on the ruggamatrix podcast (broadcast to the SH). He was laughing that everyone attacks ROG's channel, and none of them seem to learn that no one gets anywhere. He said he has no worries whatsoever with ROG defence.

http://www.ruggamatrix.com/



3. We will never have a decent replacement outhalf until the provinces start playing Irish qualified OHs. By the time ROG got his first Ireland cap, he had played in a team that won away in France (SF & Toulouse) and missed a kick that lost Munster the Heineken Cup (at the age of 21). That is the kind of experience he has.

Would you have been happy to see Sexton, Keatly or Humphreys out on the pitch on Saturday for the last 20 minutes of such a tight game?

Actually, would you have been happy to see any of them on the bench for any of the games we played in this 6Ns? I certainly can't think of one anyway. They were all very tight.

Sexton, Keatley & Humphreys need to get out the finger and prove themselves at provincial level first. There should be no cheap caps. Give me Paddy Wallace any day.

1. Yes the backs should be running from deeper and varying the angles but the OH needs to be standing flat to facilitate this, taking the ball static even sometimes with the distribution coming on or near the gainline at pace like the Kiwis do!

2. As I said ROG never shirks his defensive responsibilities and I would never subscribe to anyone saying he is a coward but watch the games in the 6N again and see how he tackles he always stands up in the tackle never leads with the shoulder that is why I say techinically his tackling is not good and also the defence of his channel comes down to the inside center beside him and Wallace covering across which in fairness is true of most 10's in rugby that the openside and inside center help constrict that channel!

3. Agreed about the provincial stuff and that Irish OH should take precedence at least in the Magners if not the HC in the case of Leinster. Keatly Has got a good run with Connacht but needs to be playing in HC matches to bring his game on. In terms of Outhalf cover though Wallace says he is not a 10 and doesn't want to play there so I don't agree with that I think it would be far better to have had humphries on the bench as cover as he has been a huge factor in Ulster turning there season around and is at least a natural ten although I think it is far more likely to be Sexton or Keatley to replace ROG over the next few seasons

louthandproud wrote: »

To the OP, you may have started this thread with all the good intentions in the world but unfortunately there are enough bandwagon ROG critics on here to corrupt any chance of a balanced discussion.

And enough posters who will defend him no matter how he plays to fuel the debates but isn't that what this board is about? or do you just come on here to have people agree with your views?

louthandproud

stephen_n wrote: »

And enough posters who will defend him no matter how he plays to fuel the debates but isn't that what this board is about? or do you just come on here to have people agree with your views?

MEH

Don't think I ever tried to say he played well when he clearly didn't. e.g. England game, some of the first half against Wales etc. It would be equally lacking in objectivity to do so. but you know that already...you just prefer to consistently argue points with me that I never act actually made since I dared question your objectivity or some of those who are clearly on the anti ROG bandwagon.

I'm not so naive that I think people will always agree with me, least of all you.
Do you expect me to agree with you all the time?

stephen_n

louthandproud wrote: »

MEH

Don't think I ever tried to say he played well when he clearly didn't. e.g. England game, some of the first half against Wales etc. It would be equally lacking in objectivity to do so. but you know that already...you just prefer to consistently argue points with me that I never act actually made since I dared question your objectivity or some of those who are clearly on the anti ROG bandwagon.

I'm not so naive that I think people will always agree with me, least of all you.
Do you expect me to agree with you all the time?

I made a counter to your point, I did not take on the other issues discussed in this thread. Your comment appeared to dismiss the validity of the thread as a whole on the basis that the anti ROG posters aired there view. I simply pointed out that the entrenched pro ROG posters did so in similar terms and questioned does that make the debate any less valid?

"To the OP, you may have started this thread with all the good intentions in the world but unfortunately there are enough bandwagon ROG critics on here to corrupt any chance of a balanced discussion."

Balance requires inclusion of extremes as it suggests meeting in the middle, am I sticking to your point closely enough this time or am I arguing a point you didn't make?

louthandproud

stephen_n wrote: »

I made a counter to your point, I did not take on the other issues discussed in this thread. Your comment appeared to dismiss the validity of the thread as a whole on the basis that the anti ROG posters aired there view. I simply pointed out that the entrenched pro ROG posters did so in similar terms and questioned does that make the debate any less valid?

"To the OP, you may have started this thread with all the good intentions in the world but unfortunately there are enough bandwagon ROG critics on here to corrupt any chance of a balanced discussion."

Balance requires inclusion of extremes as it suggests meeting in the middle, am I sticking to your point closely enough this time or am I arguing a point you didn't make?

That's close enough, but I still don't agree with you. I can't see how two non objective arguments from two ends of the spectrum can lead to a meeting in the middle.

What actually happens is they never meet and threads go on and on and on...as has the debate over ROG on this forum.

Hence my dismay when another one started as there has been a plethora of them here recently which descended into farce.

Also I thought it was a bit soon to be getting the knives out after winning a grand slam if this was really to be a balanced discussion.

Now I know you don't agree with me and I don't expect you to.

For the record I would give ROG 6.5 out of 10 for the six nations, with a big 9/10 for pulling it out when we needed it most for the Welsh 2nd half.

The_Kew_Tour

Taught he had very poor game myself but who cares after that drop goal

stephen_n

louthandproud wrote: »

That's close enough, but I still don't agree with you. I can't see how two non objective arguments from two ends of the spectrum can lead to a meeting in the middle.

What actually happens is they never meet and threads go on and on and on...as has the debate over ROG on this forum.

Hence my dismay when another one started as there has been a plethora of them here recently which descended into farce.

Also I thought it was a bit soon to be getting the knives out after winning a grand slam if this was really to be a balanced discussion.

Now I know you don't agree with me and I don't expect you to.

For the record I would give ROG 6.5 out of 10 for the six nations, with a big 9/10 for pulling it out when we needed it most for the Welsh 2nd half.

Fair enough but why engage with the extreme views or focus on them in anyway. There has been alot of good objective :pac::pac: viewpoints in this and other ROG threads but it is a public internet forum and of course there will be extreme views but in highlighting them and focusing on them the threads end up as entrenched slagging matches and the genuine debate gets lost in the middle. The simple truth about public debate is ideas get consumed by miscommunication and misunderstanding.

I would give ROG 6/10 overall in the championship and rightly or wrongly feel he plays better in red than green. I think he would play better with someone pushing him for the starting spot although other posters don't seem to think so.

anonymous_joe

Over the tournament is difficult to guage.

Certainly he was good against France, very good, similarly his performances against Italy and Scotland were good, solid games, though the England game was poor, and the Wales one a mixed bag, ranging from the farcical to something beyond sublime. (Alright, it was only decent, but fúck it. :P)

Anyway, I'd say, 8/10, 7/10, 7/10, 4/10, 6/10, so 32/50 which is near enough a 6/10.

So that's an above average showing.

teednab-el

I dont know why so many posters here criticize his performance in the Wales match. Just remember only for his drop-goal, history wouldnt have been created. Rugby in this country would take a battering once again. Can ye just thank him for what he has done. It took a brave man to take that drop-kick with the weight of the nation on his shoulders. Can you imagine if he missed it, everyone would call him a villain and people wouldnt have any more mass in him eventhough he has been by far, one of Irelands greatest kickers. I cant praise Ronan enough for scoring that drop goal and deserves great respect. When looking back at it in years to come...all people will remember is that drop goal he kicked and won the Grand Slam for Ireland not his performance on the day.

NickNolte

teednab-el wrote: »

I dont know why so many posters here criticize his performance in the Wales match. Just remember only for his drop-goal, history wouldnt have been created. Rugby in this country would take a battering once again. Can ye just thank him for what he has done. It took a brave man to take that drop-kick with the weight of the nation on his shoulders. Can you imagine if he missed it, everyone would call him a villain and people wouldnt have any more mass in him eventhough he has been by far, one of Irelands greatest kickers. I cant praise Ronan enough for scoring that drop goal and deserves great respect. When looking back at it in years to come...all people will remember is that drop goal he kicked and won the Grand Slam for Ireland not his performance on the day.

Yeah but this is a rugby forum where sentiment and nostalgia aren't exactly discussed so close to victory. O'Gara isn't perfect. He's one of (if not the) most important players on our team and his poor performances will always come under fire. Get used to it. O'Driscoll came under similar fire when he was underperforming and rightly so. Lately this forum has been polluted by people who know absolutely nothing about rugby, coming on here and defending O'Gara. Try and understand the knowledgeable rugby supporters will discuss rugby objectively, even if it means criticism.

I appreciate that some people aren't being objective (one idiot who asserted that O'Gara "didn't seem like a nice person" for example) but most people on this forum are. O'Gara and any other off-form player will be criticised. There's nothing you can do about it. Try learning something about the sport so you can engage in levelled debate rather than crying about how we're picking on your boyfriend. FFS.

anonymous_joe

teednab-el wrote: »

I dont know why so many posters here criticize his performance in the Wales match. Just remember only for his drop-goal, history wouldnt have been created. Rugby in this country would take a battering once again. Can ye just thank him for what he has done. It took a brave man to take that drop-kick with the weight of the nation on his shoulders. Can you imagine if he missed it, everyone would call him a villain and people wouldnt have any more mass in him eventhough he has been by far, one of Irelands greatest kickers. I cant praise Ronan enough for scoring that drop goal and deserves great respect. When looking back at it in years to come...all people will remember is that drop goal he kicked and won the Grand Slam for Ireland not his performance on the day.

Geordan Murphy scored an absolutely world-class drop goal for Leicester a few weeks ago. One of the best you'll see. That doesn't mean people will excuse him anything.

O'Gara's match against Wales is the epitome of his recent performances, he was targeted, looked ropey but didn't ever fail (I found Les Kiss's mockery of teams who target the channel repeatedly an interesting vote of confidence), his first half kicking was quite ropey, and his general performance slightly below average, before a second half that was much more composed and finished with a straight-forward drop goal under immense pressure.

He did badly but came good, and it's that 'did badly' bit that some people find tolerable, and other's start frothing in the mouth over.

teednab-el

NickNolte you just dont get it do you....You are thankful for nothing. Ok I will agree with you that he was below his usual performance on this six nations but it would be useless to everyone in this country if O Gara was playing so well in the tourament and then missed that drop goal attempt against Wales...Then all the media and people would be talking about his missed kick in the 6 Nations 2009. Afterall he got fierce stick when he missed 4 penalities against Northampton in the Heineken Cup Final 2000 and cost them the match.


BTW stop saying I know nothing about rugby as I play it myself. I am entitled to express my opinion also just like you. Insult me again and i will notify a moderator to get you banned.

akaredtop

O Gara played very poorly against Wales, as he has done for the whole championship. Forget that drop goal, my Granny would have got that.

barnesd

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Over the tournament is difficult to guage.

Certainly he was good against France, very good, similarly his performances against Italy and Scotland were good, solid games, though the England game was poor, and the Wales one a mixed bag, ranging from the farcical to something beyond sublime. (Alright, it was only decent, but fúck it. :P)

Anyway, I'd say, 8/10, 7/10, 7/10, 4/10, 6/10, so 32/50 which is near enough a 6/10.

So that's an above average showing.

I thought the Italy game was arguably his worst of the tournament. We looked better with him in the bin than on the pitch.

Auvers

akaredtop wrote: »

Forget that drop goal, my Granny would have got that.

:rolleyes:

is that statement a lack of intelligence? or are you just trolling?

akaredtop

Auvers wrote: »

:rolleyes:

is that statement a lack of intelligence? or are you just trolling?

You have'nt met my Granny so you cannot really comment.

NickNolte

teednab-el wrote: »

NickNolte you just dont get it do you....You are thankful for nothing.

Seriously. What are you talking about?

teednab-el wrote: »

Ok I will agree with you that he was below his usual performance on this six nations

Yeah, that's all I've been saying.

teednab-el wrote: »

but it would be useless to everyone in this country if O Gara was playing so well in the tourament and then missed that drop goal attempt against Wales...Then all the media and people would be talking about his missed kick in the 6 Nations 2009. Afterall he got fierce stick when he missed 4 penalities against Northampton in the Heineken Cup Final 2000 and cost them the match.

If a player plays a brilliant tournament and misses a drop goal at the end of it which costs them the tournament, no doubt at all that the media along with the unwashed masses would have a go at him. Most rugby supporters wouldn't though. I know I certainly wouldn't. Anybody who gives a player stick for missing an under-pressure drop goal is an idiot basically.

As it stands, I've criticised O'Gara's performance over the course of the tournament. It wasn't so bad that he deserves to be unfairly lambasted over it... but I expected a lot more from him. Particularly when you consider how the other team veterans (POC, BOD) were able to step up to the plate. As you say though, he performed in the final game when it really mattered - he had a great second half against Wales and fair play to him.

teednab-el wrote: »

BTW stop saying I know nothing about rugby as I play it myself. I am entitled to express my opinion also just like you.

You're hardly even expressing an opinion. You're simply telling the rest of us that we're not allowed have opinions.

teednab-el wrote: »

Insult me again and i will notify a moderator to get you banned.

I can live with that. Don't run off crying to your mummy while you're at it though. I don't think I could live with myself if I made a grown man do that.

twinytwo

NickNolte wrote: »

Yeah but this is a rugby forum where sentiment and nostalgia aren't exactly discussed so close to victory. O'Gara isn't perfect. He's one of (if not the) most important players on our team and his poor performances will always come under fire. Get used to it. O'Driscoll came under similar fire when he was underperforming and rightly so. Lately this forum has been polluted by people who know absolutely nothing about rugby, coming on here and defending O'Gara. Try and understand the knowledgeable rugby supporters will discuss rugby objectively, even if it means criticism.

I appreciate that some people aren't being objective (one idiot who asserted that O'Gara "didn't seem like a nice person" for example) but most people on this forum are. O'Gara and any other off-form player will be criticised. There's nothing you can do about it. Try learning something about the sport so you can engage in levelled debate rather than crying about how we're picking on your boyfriend. FFS.

I play rugby and ill defend O'Gara .."knowledgeable rugby supporters " can also end up being armchair generals.. The 6 nations is done and dusted we won time to move onto the next game. What is the point in arguing on about a game that is long over.. its like flogging a dead horse

NickNolte

twinytwo wrote: »

I play rugby and ill defend O'Gara .."knowledgeable rugby supporters " can also end up being armchair generals..

Would you say he had a good 6 Nations overall?

stephen_n

akaredtop wrote: »

O Gara played very poorly against Wales, as he has done for the whole championship. Forget that drop goal, my Granny would have got that.

Well if that's the case and your granny could put a kick like that over under that amount of pressure with a GS riding on it why is she not playing for Ireland?

thomond2006

stephen_n wrote: »

Well if that's the case and your granny could put a kick like that over under that amount of pressure with a GS riding on it why is she not playing for Ireland?

Easy now! :rolleyes::rolleyes::D:D

Micky Dolenz

twinytwo wrote: »

I play rugby and ill defend O'Gara .."knowledgeable rugby supporters " can also end up being armchair generals.. The 6 nations is done and dusted we won time to move onto the next game. What is the point in arguing on about a game that is long over.. its like flogging a dead horse

We can all play rugby...badly, what do you want?
Would you like a medal, would ya?:p:pac:

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Geordan Murphy scored an absolutely world-class drop goal for Leicester a few weeks ago. One of the best you'll see. That doesn't mean people will excuse him anything.

As far as the Leicester supporters go, Geordan Murphy can do no wrong. What competition did he win with the DG?

ROG has pulled off DGs for Munster that have grabbed/avoided Bonus Points going astray to put Munster in a better position for qualification. No one bangs on about it.

O'Gara's match against Wales is the epitome of his recent performances, he was targeted, looked ropey but didn't ever fail (I found Les Kiss's mockery of teams who target the channel repeatedly an interesting vote of confidence), his first half kicking was quite ropey, and his general performance slightly below average, before a second half that was much more composed and finished with a straight-forward drop goal under immense pressure.

It certainly makes life easier for Ireland/Munster coaches knowing what each team main tactic is going to be.

thehighground

NickNolte wrote: »

Yeah but this is a rugby forum where sentiment and nostalgia aren't exactly discussed so close to victory. O'Gara isn't perfect. He's one of (if not the) most important players on our team and his poor performances will always come under fire. Get used to it. O'Driscoll came under similar fire when he was underperforming and rightly so. Lately this forum has been polluted by people who know absolutely nothing about rugby, coming on here and defending O'Gara. Try and understand the knowledgeable rugby supporters will discuss rugby objectively, even if it means criticism.

So, you don't agree with Denis Hickie when he wrote that O'Gara is over-analysed

NickNolte

thehighground wrote: »

So, you don't agree with Denis Hickie when he wrote that O'Gara is over-analysed

I didn't read the article so I can't put it into any context. All I know is that ROG had a reasonably poor 6 Nations. Would you not agree? He also played some great rugby of course; no doubt about it. Overall though, I thought he had a poor tournament.

I don't really understand what's happening here other than a cabal of people who seem to want silence any criticism of ROG's performances and it's fairly pathetic. Personally I'm a big fan of O'Gara and was very proud of some of his better efforts, particularly the second half of the Wales match. However, if I feel a criticism is justified, I'll make it and nobody will stop me. Sorry.

anonymous_joe

barnesd wrote: »

I thought the Italy game was arguably his worst of the tournament. We looked better with him in the bin than on the pitch.

Possibly, alright.

thehighground wrote: »

As far as the Leicester supporters go, Geordan Murphy can do no wrong. What competition did he win with the DG?

ROG has pulled off DGs for Munster that have grabbed/avoided Bonus Points going astray to put Munster in a better position for qualification. No one bangs on about it.

Well I couldn't tell you which kick was easier. And 3 points is only 3 points, whether it wins a Grand Slam or you're losing.

It certainly makes life easier for Ireland/Munster coaches knowing what each team main tactic is going to be.

Aye. So long as Nonu's kept far away. :pac:

thehighground

NickNolte wrote: »

I didn't read the article so I can't put it into any context. All I know is that ROG had a reasonably poor 6 Nations. Would you not agree? He also played some great rugby of course; no doubt about it. Overall though, I thought he had a poor tournament.

I don't really understand what's happening here other than a cabal of people who seem to want silence any criticism of ROG's performances and it's fairly pathetic. Personally I'm a big fan of O'Gara and was very proud of some of his better efforts, particularly the second half of the Wales match. However, if I feel a criticism is justified, I'll make it and nobody will stop me. Sorry.

Check out Post No. 47 then - all links to Denis' article are there.

Do you usually make a judgement on what people wrote without actually reading the thread?

Hazys

How has this thread gone 10 pages?

thehighground

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Well I couldn't tell you which kick was easier. And 3 points is only 3 points, whether it wins a Grand Slam or you're losing.

At a guess I'd say, most people wouldn't agree with you.

Aye. So long as Nonu's kept far away. :pac:

Give Les Kiss a break ... he had spent about a week with the Ireland squad at that stage!

thehighground

Hazys wrote: »

How has this thread gone 10 pages?

Thank your lucky stars this is still going strong and wasn't locked and a new critique of O'Gara wasn't started.:D

I think this thread should be kept as a sort of 'toxic O'Gara thread' - just like the toxic banks for all the bad loans to be put into. Save a load of time going over old stuff again and again.:D

Ruggie, what do you think?