Unpedestrianising John Robert's Square

merlante

From Waterford Today:
Calls for free parking and an end to pedestrianisation continuing
link

The call to amend or even scrap the City Council 'pay and display' parking system has been gathering momentum with some opinion leaders in the city calling for free parking to be rolled out in the city centre to counteract Waterford's retail crisis.

Last week, a policy to amend the city centre parking policy by Cllr John Halligan (IND) was prompted, in part, by meetings with traders in the city centre.

Local shop owner, Maria Healy of Petit Cheri, Broad Street/Patrick Street, called on the Council to resolve the parking crisis and open up John Roberts Square to traffic before the city centre is well and truly a 'ghostown'.

The parking issue aside, does anyone actually think that the pedestrianisation of JR square has harmed rather than benefitted business in Waterford? Does anyone really think that providing a handful of parking spaces in JR square will alter the parking situation in any real way?

If they unpedestrianise JR square, I will seriously consider leaving Waterford and never coming back. The place should then be abandoned as the backward hick town it continually threatens to be. That would be nearly 20 years of progress rowed back on, in a city that can't even get enough of its **** together to develop, beautify and open up the quay, which is by far the biggest asset that it possesses.

If they go ahead with it, expect the cow sheds to be back within six months, and the cattle boat to be resurrected and to start taking Waterford people away to London for work along along with the cows and sheep.

ziedth

I think that John roberts Square is just another factor in a long line of finger pointing for what is wrong with the city centre. If they do open it up again and low and behold it doesn't work what will take the hit next:

Retail parks? no we've already blamed them
Economy? no we need something that we can fix

I'm sure Taxi drivers/the weather/Sully/Students/Parking/Me etc. will all be blamed soon enough.

I agree with merlante the city centre is going to jump back 10 years if they decide to do that.

fricatus

JR Square is one of the nicest things we have in Waterford, but it's typical that once again we have these empty vessels making the most noise, to the extent that you'd think that that was the only opinion in town. Seriously, I wonder what type of bloody leadership we have in the city when the anti pedestrianisation brigade can just stand up and have nobody (apparently) put the opposing view in public.

The trouble is, the media in Dublin will get a sniff of this, and have great fun mocking the backward hicks that can't seem to make a success of a process that has worked absolutely everywhere else.

Really, can you imagine anyone in Galway calling for traffic to return to Shop St or anyone in Dublin asking for the same in Grafton St? As always, we have these idiots who are determined to shoot us in the foot.

I despair sometimes!

merlante

fricatus wrote: »

JR Square is one of the nicest things we have in Waterford, but it's typical that once again we have these empty vessels making the most noise, to the extent that you'd think that that was the only opinion in town. Seriously, I wonder what type of bloody leadership we have in the city when the anti pedestrianisation brigade can just stand up and have nobody (apparently) put the opposing view in public.

The trouble is, the media in Dublin will get a sniff of this, and have great fun mocking the backward hicks that can't seem to make a success of a process that has worked absolutely everywhere else.

Really, can you imagine anyone in Galway calling for traffic to return to Shop St or anyone in Dublin asking for the same in Grafton St? As always, we have these idiots who are determined to shoot us in the foot.

I despair sometimes!

A lot of Waterford people's attitude towards things like pedestrianisation and apartments, thought of as heralds of progress elsewhere, is eccentric bordering on the humerous.

Does anyone know what's happening around the archway beside the Threatre Royal? I heard that another bunch of empty vessels were screaming to have it closed off because of people getting drunk and pissing there, and now it is surrounded by ominous hoarding. I think, despite the kids that make a mess of it from time to time, that this little archway and steps was a pretty cool access point to cathedral sq., which incidentally I used nearly every day to get to my house. God knows what they are doing up there.

The way it's gone with council hoarding at the moment, it'll become a near permanent structure!

And you're right, the Dublin media will get a hold of it and we'll be the laughing stock of the country as usual. I'd love to have the time to filibuster the council that these crackpots do.

tonc76

This surely has to be an early April Fools joke

KingLoser

I'm on the other side of the fence on this one. The "centre", if it can even be called that anymore, died after they blocked it up.

Yeah, it's prettier.. but we could knock the bridge and hang balloons there instead. That'd be pretty too...

I guess.

merlante

KingLoser wrote: »

I'm on the other side of the fence on this one. The "centre", if it can even be called that anymore, died after they blocked it up.

Yeah, it's prettier.. but we could knock the bridge and hang balloons there instead. That'd be pretty too...

I guess.

So all the people you see in JR square on a Saturday, where are they when the roads come back, and the footpaths are two people wide? And wherever they are, are they more or less likely to spend money in shops on JR square?

I'm fascinated to hear from the other side though.

KingLoser

merlante wrote: »

So all the people you see in JR square on a Saturday, where are they when the roads come back, and the footpaths are two people wide? And wherever they are, are they more or less likely to spend money in shops on JR square?

I'm fascinated to hear from the other side though.

I don't think the amount of people there on a Saturday is really extraordinary when you take into account the pure lack of people there after 6pm every single night.

Shur, didn't the guy who closed up shop in Egans say it was because of pedestrianisation..?

I don't see why the other side is all that wrong.

EDIT: I always make this mistake. I'm talking about Barronstrand Street, not JR Sq. That was a pretty valuable traffic artery.

Sully

Completely disagree with the proposal. The new shopping center will increase the overall spaces available anyway. Waterford has lots of parking, probably to much. City Square is never really full but is always busy (despite the crazy pricing). To change John Roberts Square would be a disaster. Increase in cars in this area would make the area more dangerous. I don't believe for one second that extra spaces in the square will improve business. People can easily park there cars and the goods from these stores are not bulky enough that require a car to be parked nearby.

I'm not a huge fan of the city center design wise, but changing it to allow traffic would be a waste of money and make hardly any difference at all. People at the moment like the idea of walking freely between the shops without worrying about traffic or moving around parked cars.

Are the council not already trying to reduce spaces on the quay and that general area - a "Green Route" for taxis and buses only? So what, to make up for it lets make the town center a big car park making it a pain for people to get around and making it extremely dangerous.

Its a ghost town folks due to 1) lack of decent shops, 2) parking prices (kilkenny for example, is dirt cheap), 3) shops prices and 4) the country is in recession

As for after 6... well, what is there to keep people in town after that? Folk go home for dinner after shopping. People will stick around if there is a bar or some place to eat (not a takeaway). All the center has is a selection of shops, neither of which require a nearby big car park as the goods they sell do not require immediate disposal in a car!

Psychedelic

it's so stupid. why do these people think allowing cars & taxis to drive down john roberts square is gonna "bring back life" to the city centre?

once construction begins on the newgate centre there will be a few hundred more people working every day in city centre, and when construction is complete the shoppers will have a good reason to shop there more and get the place thriving again. a few taxis parked outside penny's aint gonna do that.

dazftw

I don't see why they can't leave the shops open in the center open later? Its been said before.. put some cafes & bars in there that open til late! Get rid of the "coffins" and put lots of trees and proper seating in there!

Thats doing 2 things creating jobs and more people to stay in later. :eek:

angelfalling

Whiners. There is great parking on the quays and I always find a spot, normally directly across from JR square. And the first stop are the shops on the square. What's the suggestion here? People will suddenly start coming down into town because they can park right in front of... where? How much room do they think there will be?
Honestly, the reason its a "ghost town" is that there isn't much worth going into the city centre to shop anymore. And it's going to be abandoned for a while, I'd say, while Penney's is temporarily out in Railway Square.
The Square is one of the nicest parts of the city, I will stop going into town full stop if its depedestrianized. I have a toddler and a baby on the way, its not going to be worth it to me to scrunch up on sidewalk and people dodge while cars drive by.
I agree with daz-- more cafes and shops open late, decent places to sit... that will bring people in.

merlante

KingLoser wrote: »

I don't think the amount of people there on a Saturday is really extraordinary when you take into account the pure lack of people there after 6pm every single night.

Shur, didn't the guy who closed up shop in Egans say it was because of pedestrianisation..?

I don't see why the other side is all that wrong.

EDIT: I always make this mistake. I'm talking about Barronstrand Street, not JR Sq. That was a pretty valuable traffic artery.

The square is comfortably busy on a Saturday, the main trading day, between the main trading hours. If you went back to the old streets, you simply could not fit the same amount of people into the area. People would be run out of the place by streams of irritated shoppers. That's the way it used to be. People have to step onto the road to avoid prams, etc.

Egans was doing a fine trade for a long period of time. Pedestrianisation didn't kill Egans, Egans closing helped kill JR square. I'd ask Mr. Egan how much he got for the pub license and the sale to Pennies, and I wouldn't worry about any rubbish about him losing any trade because of pedestrianisation, personally. Sure what's another 20 yards to walk when you've got a taxi from the Dunmore rd. or Larchville or wherever?

How many parking spaces could be freed up? 10 maybe. Hardly going to make a massive difference. How are people supposed to shop if there is nowhere for them to stand, or maybe cars are supposed to pull up outside each shop in turn... that'd work. No wait.

Interesting to hear attitudes to pedestrianisation elsewhere:
Pedestrianise Horsham's East Street or not?

"You see people strolling along and enjoying the environment, looking at the shops, where previously the narrow pavements and parked vehicles were not conducive to perusing the shops.

"Sometimes with the lorries and parked cars along the street it was incredibly dangerous.

"There are so many more people in the street now and they are potential customers.

"Business has held very well given the recession. I think the majority of people have seen the benefits.

"For the restaurants, they want to be able to put tables outside during the summer, which would increase the number of people in the street and they would be sitting looking at the shops."

Joint owner of Purdies Linens, Liz Streeter, said she was 'very pro' pedestrianisation.

"It is a lovely street but is too narrow to have lorries and cars running down it all the time," she said.

"The parking we had before was a nightmare. Quite often the shop fronts were blocked by lorries.

Horsham, by the way, is a market town situated on the River Arun in the Horsham District of West Sussex, England with a population of roughly 50,000 (2008), according to wikipedia.

JohnC.

KingLoser wrote: »

I don't think the amount of people there on a Saturday is really extraordinary when you take into account the pure lack of people there after 6pm every single night.

Isn't that obvious? The shops are closed. Why would there be crowds around when the shops are closed? Opening the roads won't help shops after 6, when they are closed. Opening the roads will mean less space for people during the day and will put people off going there.

seanybiker

leave the cars go through it. They shouldnt have getting rid of the road in the first place.

KingLoser

To all you people shouting about the shops closing at 6pm, and that that's the way it's "supposed to be"...

Go anywhere, and see what happens to towns after 6pm.

It's called nightlife.

Anyway, opening the road would create (or reopen) an artery through the town. One that was closed to traffic to cater for non-existant footfall. It would be more attractive to pubs and clubs if their patrons could be picked up outside the front door.

I don't think opening up the road will wave a magic wand and fix everything, but I do think it would be the first step in reversing a silly decision.

robtri

KingLoser wrote: »

Anyway, opening the road would create (or reopen) an artery through the town. One that was closed to traffic to cater for non-existant footfall. It would be more attractive to pubs and clubs if their patrons could be picked up outside the front door.

I am a bit confused here, there is a road ( johns street)that goes by the pubs and clubs in town already there already open to traffic and has a taxi rank on it, so how will opening JR square improve this in anyway shape or form?????

KingLoser

robtri wrote: »

I am a bit confused here, there is a road ( johns street)that goes by the pubs and clubs in town already there already open to traffic and has a taxi rank on it, so how will opening JR square improve this in anyway shape or form?????

If JR Sq was even a percentage as lively as John St area is after 6, it would be a massive improvement! Also, it would probably take away from the godawful congestion down that area.

robtri

KingLoser wrote: »

If JR Sq was even a percentage as lively as John St area is after 6, it would be a massive improvement! Also, it would probably take away from the godawful congestion down that area.

but its not, there are no clubs or bars, its all shops??? so why would you waste money putting in a new road....

KingLoser

robtri wrote: »

but its not, there are no clubs or bars, its all shops??? so why would you waste money putting in a new road....

There was a pub there, probably (arguably, another thread..) one of the best.

It left with the road.

c - 13

I really fail to see how opening up JR Square to traffic once again will make it more lively post 6PM to anything other than passing traffic. There is nothing in there that opens after 6 (except closer to christmas maybe) to encourage people to go up there. The pedestrianised area has only two bars (T&H's & Gingerman) and no late opening cafe's coffee shops.

Opening it will be a pointless move. It wont encourage people up there - However if they rezoned and had stuff opened there and didnt have the concentration of stuff that opens later down there on the mall then it would have people in there whilst still pedestrianised.

robtri

KingLoser wrote: »

There was a pub there, probably (arguably, another thread..) one of the best.

It left with the road.

I doubt it was the pedestrianising of JR square that closed that pub.. it was a good place....

KingLoser

I can see the point that opening it now probably wouldn't achieve much, because the only pub on the town's square (say that again, and say it aint sad) is getting knocked to expand a fuggin Penneys.

Town squares are supposed to be a place for people to gather and socialise. Pubs and cafés are central to that, and unless ye haven't noticed, nothing of that sort has opened since pedestrianisation (they've closed the only one that was there). JR Sq is nothing more than an unroofed City Square with crapper shops for the little Paris Hilton wannabes.

The damage has already been done imo.

I doubt it was the pedestrianising of JR square that closed that pub.. it was a good place....

I think the old owner would disagree with you on that..

Quigs Snr

Footfall has declined since pedestrianisation. I think most people think that this is a recession related problem, but most business people in the town will tell you that it has been an issue throughout the noughties.

You could go in circles saying that you don't understand it and that Waterford people are just incredibly lazy, thats all fine, true in fact, but it doesn't change the fact that there has been a problem for a long time.

For what its worth, I like the pedestrian area's but talking to a former business owner in the Georges St Area it seems that its not popular with many local business's. Any owners on here who can speak to that ?

Pubs, restaurants etc.. don't work in these area's of Waterford, because... and I am not joking here... if a taxi or car cannot stop directly outside such a place it dies a death. Apparently this is because the ladies don't like their hair and makeup getting ruined walking a hundred yards on a wet windy, winter night.. ! I am not being facetious here, apparently this is a major reason for these establishments not working (and I am sure all of us lads with significant others would well believe it)

I dunno what the solution to all of this is.. Hopefully the Bowery complex gets built and traffic gets rerouted around the town in a way that will breathe life back into it..

soldering iron

dunno what the solution to all of this is.. Hopefully the Bowery complex gets built and traffic gets rerouted around the town in a way that will breathe life back into it..

Do you really believe that this shopping complex will be completed now, if people have no money too spend "why" would you invest in more shops.

In my humble opinion the reason that the centre of town is not doing so well is: the Parking fees, the price of goods on sale and the take it or leave it attitude of the shops/assistants.

sunnysoutheast

I think JR Square is a massive asset to the City centre. The carousel, slow food festival and big screens for the hurling were very popular, there should be more of the same. I'd love to see pavement cafes etc. along there - but do we get the weather?

There is already a nightlife area with takeaways, taxis, etc., adding a busy through road isn't going to create another one, or do anything about parking. The road would be full all the time anyway, with cars turning right onto the Quay and Lady Lane backing up, never mind the inevitable "I have my hazards on so I'm not really parked, just waiting" double parking all along it (see Patrick Street, the Quay).

Yes the road used to be open, but how many cars where there then?

SSE

ziedth

How in gods name would JR square cause Egans to close down?

Does T&H's have a motorway passing that i'm not aware of? Fact is Egans never fully took advantage of the pedestrianisation that they could have, Outside drinking aera like T&H's have would have been perfect cause If I'm not mistaken it was around the same time as the smoking ban came in.

To say that traffic effects the preformance of a pub is crazy IMO, Look at that pub beside across from sherwoods (the name escapes me) perfect flow of traffic and they even spent a fortune doing it up IIRC.

merlante

Quigs Snr wrote: »

Footfall has declined since pedestrianisation. I think most people think that this is a recession related problem, but most business people in the town will tell you that it has been an issue throughout the noughties.

You could go in circles saying that you don't understand it and that Waterford people are just incredibly lazy, thats all fine, true in fact, but it doesn't change the fact that there has been a problem for a long time.

For what its worth, I like the pedestrian area's but talking to a former business owner in the Georges St Area it seems that its not popular with many local business's. Any owners on here who can speak to that ?

Pubs, restaurants etc.. don't work in these area's of Waterford, because... and I am not joking here... if a taxi or car cannot stop directly outside such a place it dies a death. Apparently this is because the ladies don't like their hair and makeup getting ruined walking a hundred yards on a wet windy, winter night.. ! I am not being facetious here, apparently this is a major reason for these establishments not working (and I am sure all of us lads with significant others would well believe it)

I dunno what the solution to all of this is.. Hopefully the Bowery complex gets built and traffic gets rerouted around the town in a way that will breathe life back into it..

JR Square has been pedestrianised, to one extent or another, since the early 90's. In the early 90's Waterford was not a thriving city, it was a run down husk of a town that had been rotting for generations. City Square was only opening at the time. When were these halcyon days when Waterford was supposedly booming, from whence it is now languishing?

I personally believe that business men in Waterford are always playing the poor mouth, and want to make business seem desperate even when they are doing okay. They want to get all the breaks they can in terms of rents and rates and public support, and yes, they probably also want people to be able to pull up outside, despite the fact that only one car at a time can pull up outside, and there would be poor access from the footpaths. How many of the businesses in JR square now were there 10-15 years ago? None hardly. The businesses there now bought into a business in a pedestrianised area, so they have not experienced the so called halcyon age of thriving Waterford.

In my opinion, things have never been a whole lot better than they are now. The pedestrianised square takes the look of business off the town, but it makes it a more pleasant place to shop and to frequent -- and many do. The problem in my view is that the Dunmore rd. set feel that Ardkeen, Tesco, etc. is their world, and they don't feel any affinity for the city centre.

You'll also hear the taxis complaining about pedestrianisation. But how many taxis remember the period before pedestrianisation. Prior to deregulation, there were only something like 26 taxis in Waterford, compared to the hundreds there are now. Maybe only 5-10 current taxis in Waterford were taxis prior to deregulation -- so where does this collective memory of better times come from? The taxis want rank space everywhere, so they'll say anything to get it.

BB's, O'Briens, Bagel Factory, Brunch, Gingerman, Lucia, etc., serve food and drinks within the pedestrianised area, and do a good business. What affect would depedestrianisation have on them? Detrimental no doubt -- especially since many of them place tables and seats outside, and do a big tourist trade in the summer.

I do not understand why the whole town has to be busy after 6pm. It is normal in most places that the socialising core is in a different place from the commercial core. You shop during the day and you eat and drink during the night. The junction provides more than enough night life in Waterford in one place, although people will argue about variety.

merlante

ziedth wrote: »

How in gods name would JR square cause Egans to close down?

It didn't, that's total rubbish. Egans was thriving for years and years after the area was pedestrianised. I remember, I used to go there a lot. It was the hotest pub in town for years until they lost interest in it, and other newer pubs started appearing.

Bards

Egans closed so that the Belfry could open, he moved the bar license to it - Same owner

If JR square is opened to traffic and parking was allowed there - how many extra cars would fit? 50? 100?

how in gods name will this small increase in parking make a difference to footfall???

It will only result in making JR quare look busier than it is now,
and cars do not go shopping - people do

Sully

With regards to people wanting to "walk to the door". I disagree. The pub beside the back of Shaws seems to be busy on a regular basis and has remained so for a long time. As is the Gingerman. Same with the restaurant near it. That whole area is closed of to traffic also during the day. Part of the Square is opened a lot of the time after 6 anyway. This rubbishes the argument for pubs closing down as a result and people refusing to go unless they can be dropped to the door.

The city center is busy enough but the quality of shops is poor. People are now being even smarter with their money so businesses are feeling the pinch more so now and are hoping that by allowing extra cars people will suddenly decide to go shopping. We had a topic around Christmas time discussing some of the well known retailers charging a fortune for products and refusing to give discounts for big buyers. I think most people will avoid the area if cars are allowed.

Id also think most people want more retail units and not more pubs. The extension of Penneys is very much welcomed by a lot of people as a busy store in the area.

The problem is the lack of decent shops, fair prices, cafes and other shops which will attract footfall. Parking is not a problem, we have loads of spaces. You can still drop people at various ends (Clock Tower - right beside the AIB, Patrick St. - right beside Supermacks, beside the Gingerman, beside the Jewlers near Dunnes etc) with a very short walk anyway.