Is The Writing Now On The Wall For Newcastle United

That_Guy

BastardPrince wrote: »

1. its not that newcastle fans think they're special (and tbh 50,000 fans showing up to watch Newcastle is amazing) but that they think they are a big club. they are not, financially they maybe in the upper half of the premier league but in terms of players and results they finish where they belong. the reason people think newcastle supporters believe they are a bigger club than they are is not from what they say but what they do. I personally thought the fans treatent of Allerdyce became disgusting, they seem much too eager to turn on managers thinking they deserve to be higher up the table.

To be fair we do deserve to be higher than this. We were in the Champions League not so long ago under Bobby Robson. We have tasted the highs and are now experiencing the crushing lows of this league. Of course we deserve to be higher than this but of course the PL table never lies. We've been muck all season and deserve to be where we are.

As for your Allardyce comment he had to go. The club was playing some of the worst football ever to grace St. James' Park and beyond. Fair enough he did a good job at Bolton but to bring that style of football to a place like Newcastle is never going to work.

2. the club is all about taping into the sentimentality, the Shearer appointment screams it. while it may work and keep Newcastle up, you cant deny it isnt sentimentality. It would be like United hiring Cantona as their manager, he's not qualified for the job.

The appointment of Shearer as everybody knows by now is a temporary thing and is designed to be an injection into the arm of Newcastle United for the remaining games of the season.

As for Shearer's qualifications you're just re-hashing what everybody already knows. But you only have to look at Zola and Klinsmann to see what fantastic jobs both have done with no qualifications.

3. Shearer doesnt need the cash, true - but that doesnt mean he isnt there for his ego. see here:

Originally Posted by http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/apr/05/alan-shearer-newcastle
[Shearer] admitted he had taken the job because a friend had said to him how would he feel if he didn't take the job and Newcastle managed to stay up.

I don't see how this justifies your point about Shearer having an ego... Don't believe everything you read.

i dont think the premier league would miss newcastle if they went down, and it may the only way they are going to sort their squad out and cut the fat, obviously as a liverpool fan i would miss the games at st. james' but its nothing they dont deserve....

People see Newcastle as the "joke" club and yes we have had a few farcical seasons especially this one. I will agree that we do need to get rid of overpaid and quite frankly useless players that are just going to halt progress going forward like Cacapa/Smith/Geremi and even Owen. It's quite obvious they don't want to play for us.

noodler

I would definetly miss Newcastle from the EPL.

I don't understand the extent of the criticism Geordie fans get. Filling the stadium week in and week out despite all the turmoil-they do deserve better.

I worry about Duff playing in the Championship too.

Helix

That_Guy wrote: »

Of course we deserve to be higher than this but of course the PL table never lies. We've been muck all season and deserve to be where we are.

bit of a contradiction there no?

also, this is interesting. was mailed to me by a colleague when we were discussing the "newcastle are a top club" fallacy

Helix

noodler wrote: »

IFilling the stadium week in and week out despite all the turmoil-they do deserve better.

like that whopping 20000 v spurs?

noodler

Whats your point? There are around 45 games in a season for a club like Newcastle, and despite the fact they have no discernable cup run or European football, they manage to fill their stadium for just about every game.

You picking one midweek cup game against Spurs isn't going to make that untrue I am afraid.

Chardee MacDennis

That_Guy wrote: »

. Fair enough he did a good job at Bolton but to bring that style of football to a place like Newcastle is never going to work.

that was the point of the allardyce appointment as i saw it, get him in give newcastle a bit of grit and backbone, then once he had cemented their position in the top 10 get in a more glamorous coach to puch them back into the top 5/6. i agree he didnt have the players there to play his style and thats why it takes time to either mould whatever players he can and bring in his own players, he never got the chance if you ask me

The appointment of Shearer as everybody knows by now is a temporary thing and is designed to be an injection into the arm of Newcastle United for the remaining games of the season.

As for Shearer's qualifications you're just re-hashing what everybody already knows. But you only have to look at Zola and Klinsmann to see what fantastic jobs both have done with no qualifications.

fair enough, as i said i could see the shot in the arm working, it's a very slim chance but that doesnt mean its the right thing to do...

I don't see how this justifies your point about Shearer having an ego... Don't believe everything you read.

read into it what you will, as far as i am concerned Shearer wants to be the man to save Newcastle whether or not he believes he is the right man for the job.

Helix

noodler wrote: »

Whats your point? There are around 45 games in a season for a club like Newcastle, and despite the fact they have no discernable cup run or European football, they manage to fill their stadium for just about every game.

You picking one midweek cup game against Spurs isn't going to make that untrue I am afraid.

Bolton PREM W 1-0 47,711
Hull City PREM L 1-2 50,242
Tottenham LGCP L 1-2 20,577
Blackburn PREM L 1-2 44,935
Manchester City PREM D 2-2 45,908
WBA PREM W 2-1 45,801
Aston Villa PREM W 2-0 44,567
Wigan Athletic PREM D 2-2 47,524
Stoke City PREM D 2-2 47,422
Tottenham PREM W 2-1 47,982
Liverpool PREM L 1-5 52,114
West Ham Utd PREM D 2-2 47,571
Hull City FACP L 0-1 31,380
Sunderland PREM D 1-1 52,084
Everton PREM D 0-0 47,683
Man Utd PREM L 1-2 51,636
Arsenal PREM L 1-3 49,972
Chelsea PREM L 0-2 52,112

so say we take 52000 even as being a full house, that means that newcastle filled the stadium twice this season from 18 home games

from the remaining 16, 12 had less than 48000 in attendance

they dont sell out every week. they rarely come close

kinaldo

Helix wrote: »

Bolton PREM W 1-0 47,711
Hull City PREM L 1-2 50,242
Tottenham LGCP L 1-2 20,577
Blackburn PREM L 1-2 44,935
Manchester City PREM D 2-2 45,908
WBA PREM W 2-1 45,801
Aston Villa PREM W 2-0 44,567
Wigan Athletic PREM D 2-2 47,524
Stoke City PREM D 2-2 47,422
Tottenham PREM W 2-1 47,982
Liverpool PREM L 1-5 52,114
West Ham Utd PREM D 2-2 47,571
Hull City FACP L 0-1 31,380
Sunderland PREM D 1-1 52,084
Everton PREM D 0-0 47,683
Man Utd PREM L 1-2 51,636
Arsenal PREM L 1-3 49,972
Chelsea PREM L 0-2 52,112

so say we take 52000 even as being a full house, that means that newcastle filled the stadium twice this season from 18 home games

from the remaining 16, 12 had less than 48000 in attendance

they dont sell out every week. they rarely come close

ha, 48,000 is still about 10,000 more than Villa would get.

Helix

kinaldo wrote: »

ha, 48,000 is still about 10,000 more than Villa would get.

what have villa got to do with it?

kinaldo

Helix wrote: »

what have villa got to do with it?

point that most clubs would kill for 48,000

M5

This Season

pos/team/games/ave attendance

1 Man Utd 31 75299

2 Arsenal 32 60032

3 Newcastle 32 48462

4 Liverpool 32 43508

5 Manchester City 32 42742

6 Chelsea 32 41502

7 Sunderland 32 39785

8 Aston Villa 32 39669

9 Tottenham 32 35935

10 Everton 32 35296

11 West Ham Utd 32 33538

12 Middlesbrough 32 28045

13 WBA 32 25849

14 Stoke City 32 25256

15 Hull City 32 24793

16 Fulham 32 24144

17 Blackburn 32 23029

18 Bolton 32 22277

19 Portsmouth 31 19737

20 Wigan Athletic 32 18189

All Time PL record

1 Man Utd 651 59500

2 Newcastle 610 44306

3 Liverpool 652 41506

4 Arsenal 652 40113

5 Sunderland 298 38974

6 Manchester City 462 35493

7 Leeds 468 35151

8 Aston Villa 652 34403

9 Everton 652 33876

10 Chelsea 652 33617

11 Tottenham 652 32831

12 Middlesbrough 530 29006

13 Wolverhampton 38 28874

14 Derby 266 28049

15 Birmingham 190 28048

16 West Ham 534 27702

17 Sheff Wed 316 26513

18 West Brom 146 25986

19 Stoke 32 25256

20 Hull 32 24793

Lets put the attendance thing to bed.....

Helix

kinaldo wrote: »

point that most clubs would kill for 48,000

thats a far cry from a "full house every week", just like the actual attendance stats are a far cry from "newcastle always packed out st james' park even when they were in lower divisions"

for the record, villas home league attendances this season as follows (we have a capacity of a little over 42000, so we'll take it the same as newcastle, and take 42000 even as a sell out):

Manchester City 39,955
Liverpool 41,647
Sunderland 38,706
Portsmouth 37,660
Blackburn Rovers 35,985
Middlesbrough 36,672
Manchester United 42,585
Fulham 36,625
Bolton Wanderers 35,134
Arsenal 42,585
West Bromwich Albion 41,757
Sunderland 40,350
Wigan Athletic 41,766
Chelsea 42,585
Stoke City 39,641
Tottenham Hotspur 41,205
Everton 40,188

so we've had 3 sell outs all season. however if we take the same ~8% of capacity figure and subtract it from capacity to signify "almost full", 10 of the remaining 14 fall within that remit

therefore villa pack out our stadium on a more regular basis than newcastly do, based on the sizes of each stadium

Helix

M5 wrote: »

All Time PL record

1 Man Utd 651 59500

2 Newcastle 610 44306

3 Liverpool 652 41506

4 Arsenal 652 40113

5 Sunderland 298 38974

6 Manchester City 462 35493

7 Leeds 468 35151

8 Aston Villa 652 34403

9 Everton 652 33876

10 Chelsea 652 33617

11 Tottenham 652 32831

12 Middlesbrough 530 29006

13 Wolverhampton 38 28874

14 Derby 266 28049

15 Birmingham 190 28048

16 West Ham 534 27702

17 Sheff Wed 316 26513

18 West Brom 146 25986

19 Stoke 32 25256

20 Hull 32 24793

Lets put the attendance thing to bed.....

go back a little further, til you hit the 15000k regular attendances

kinaldo

Helix wrote: »

thats a far cry from a "full house every week", just like the actual attendance stats are a far cry from "newcastle always packed out st james' park even when they were in lower divisions"

for the record, villas home league attendances this season as follows (we have a capacity of a little over 42000, so we'll take it the same as newcastle, and take 42000 even as a sell out):

Manchester City 39,955
Liverpool 41,647
Sunderland 38,706
Portsmouth 37,660
Blackburn Rovers 35,985
Middlesbrough 36,672
Manchester United 42,585
Fulham 36,625
Bolton Wanderers 35,134
Arsenal 42,585
West Bromwich Albion 41,757
Sunderland 40,350
Wigan Athletic 41,766
Chelsea 42,585
Stoke City 39,641
Tottenham Hotspur 41,205
Everton 40,188

so we've had 3 sell outs all season. however if we take the same ~8% of capacity figure and subtract it from capacity to signify "almost full", 10 of the remaining 14 fall within that remit

therefore villa pack out our stadium on a more regular basis than newcastly do, based on the sizes of each stadium

It doens't matter what size Villa's stadium is, they still get less than 40k

so you can't compare with Newcastle, and certainly can't knock Newcastle's crowds.

Also..

Villa are having a good season (for them).

Newcastle are having their worst season in about 18 years.

Newcastle fans have spent most of this season protesting against Ashley.

Newcastle will sell out their remaining 3 home games.

Helix

kinaldo wrote: »

Villa are having a good season (for them).

not really, in the last 5 years perhaps, but since the premiership started (since we're using that stat), its been a fairly average one for us

kinaldo wrote: »

It doens't matter what size Villa's stadium is, they still get less than 40k

40k is our stadium 95% full, and the occasions we've gotten under 40k have been less often than we've gotten over 40k.

noodler

Thanks for making my point for me Helix.

Now if you really wanted a nonsensical vendetta against a club based on attendances you would go for Blackburn, Wigan or Boro.

Helix

noodler wrote: »

Thanks for making my point for me Helix.

Now if you really wanted a nonsensical vendetta against a club based on attendances you would go for Blackburn, Wigan or Boro.

its far from a nonsensical vendetta, just pointing out that newcastles fabled support is far from whats claimed when looked at in reality

noodler

Helix wrote: »

its far from a nonsensical vendetta, just pointing out that newcastles fabled support is far from whats claimed when looked at in reality

But how does the information you posted, appreciated by the way, in anyway highlight Newcastle's support as 'fabled' let alone 'far from' what is claimed?

kinaldo

Helix wrote: »

not really, in the last 5 years perhaps, but since the premiership started (since we're using that stat), its been a fairly average one for us



40k is our stadium 95% full, and the occasions we've gotten under 40k have been less often than we've gotten over 40k.

What have stadium percentages got to do with anything? If your capacity was 35k it would be 100%, if it was 78k it would be 50%. It's just a bs stat people like you use because it pisses you off to see Newcastle get significantly higher crowds than Villa.

You're right about Villa having a fairly ''average'' Premiership season though, as they're 5th in the oveall EPL table right now - a mere 5 points ahead of Newcastle.. having played 40 games more

In reality though Villa challenging for 4th has been an amazing season for them.

invincibleirish

kinaldo wrote: »

You're right about Villa having a fairly ''average'' Premiership season though, as they're 5th in the oveall EPL table right now - a mere 5 points ahead of Newcastle.. having played 40 games more

To be fair if ol' Doug had mortgaged Villas future the way the owners did at Leeds or Newcastle, then im sure that stat would be more balanced in Villas favour. As it is, taking 92/93 as a starting point, Villa have won more honours then newky and came just as close to winning the PL, and thats without bankrupting the club. See you on the 24th of May:).

kinaldo

invincibleirish wrote: »

To be fair if ol' Doug had mortgaged Villas future the way the owners did at Leeds or Newcastle, then im sure that stat would be more balanced in Villas favour. As it is, taking 92/93 as a starting point, Villa have won more honours then newky and came just as close to winning the PL, and thats without bankrupting the club. See you on the 24th of May:).

Well Newcastle's recent record is about as impressive as trophyless records can be, for a non-big club.

2 Premiership runners up, 2 FA Cup finals, 3 Champions League qualifications, 1 Uefa Cup semi final, and so many memories. And most of that came WITHOUT King Kev!

Admittedly our League Cup record against youth teams has been pathetic!

M5

invincibleirish wrote: »

To be fair if ol' Doug had mortgaged Villas future the way the owners did at Leeds or Newcastle, then im sure that stat would be more balanced in Villas favour. As it is, taking 92/93 as a starting point, Villa have won more honours then newky and came just as close to winning the PL, and thats without bankrupting the club. See you on the 24th of May:).

If Newcastle had better management they too would have been better, ifs and buts hold no weight in any argument. Leeds also would not be in the position they are in if they were better managed

You also made a point about Doug Ellis. I find it hard to believe that after you put up with rubbish like that for ten years or so you seem to get some perverse glee from watching the mess that we are in right now!

Villa are by no stretch of the imagination a bigger club than Newcastle. And Newcastle are no bigger than Villa. Talking about trends in attendance etc is complete BS. Here are the stats that matter, Trophy's and league position

so here we go

All time top division records

---

S---G----=W

---

D----L

---

F

---

A----Pts
1. Liverpool 93 3716 1713 926 1077 6086 - 4563 4352
2. Everton 105 4100 1671 1006 1423 6428 - 5752 4348
3. Arsenal 91 3716 1653 965 1098 6068 - 4725 4271
4. Aston Villa 97 3766 1557 880 1329 6273 - 5615 3994
5. Manchester United 83 3360 1556 841 963 5743 - 4413 3953
6. Newcastle United 78 3122 1231 758 1133 4799 - 4492 3220
7. Manchester City 79 3202 1190 797 1215 4804 - 4821 3177
8. Tottenham 73 2976 1187 728 1061 4651 - 4288 3102

All time pl

---

Team

---

P

---

W----D--- L--- F---- A---- GD--- PTS
1 Man Utd 651 416 142 93 1274 559 715 1390
2 Arsenal 652 349 178 125 1102 575 527 1225
3 Chelsea 652 330 175 147 1032 626 406 1165
4 Liverpool 652 326 167 159 1051 628 423 1145
5 Aston Villa 652 245 195 212 830 766 64 930
6 Newcastle 610 246 164 200 881 770 111 902
7 Tottenham 652 234 173 245 877 883 -6 875
8 Everton 652 225 177 250 805 842 -37 852


See a pattern?

Trophy's

League villa 5 (2 in the last 100 years) Newcastle 4 league titles (none in recent memory)


FA cup Villa 7, last in 1957 Newcastle 5, last in 55

Europe, Villa one major trophy, Newcastle one

Nothing to choose between the sides, the same as Everton, Spurs and all the other pretenders


edit apologies to invincibleirish, tirade aimed at you by mistake

invincibleirish

I still think Newcastle are too good to go down, reckon they'll beat Boro, Fulham & Pompey and get a draw somewhere to ensure survival. Surely its all set up for another classic last day scrap. Boro/WBA & Sundireland for me anyway.

M5

invincibleirish wrote: »

I still think Newcastle are too good to go down, reckon they'll beat Boro, Fulham & Pompey and get a draw somewhere to ensure survival. Surely its all set up for another classic last day scrap. Boro/WBA & Sundireland for me anyway.

I really hope so, but i don't agree on the "too good to go down bit" They are where they deserve to be this season, no doubt about that....

invincibleirish

I have watched zero Newcastle this season bar the Villa game so of course i can't really speak with knowledge, but surely between messrs Owen/Martins & Viduka there's enough firepower to put a few past the Boro & Pompey defence? not to mention the leaky Villa defence:o, as much as i'd like Villa to do a Coventry and send Newcastle down on the last day, chances are the Villa players will already be on holiday at that point and NU will come away with the spoils, i can feel it in my waters.

M5

invincibleirish wrote: »

I have watched zero Newcastle this season bar the Villa game so of course i can't really speak with knowledge, but surely between messrs Owen/Martins & Viduka there's enough firepower to put a few past the Boro & Pompey defence? not to mention the leaky Villa defence:o, as much as i'd like Villa to do a Coventry and send Newcastle down on the last day, chances are the Villa players will already be on holiday at that point and NU will come away with the spoils, i can feel it in my waters.

You would think so alright, but we create next to nothing for them! They are really awful TBPH! Heres hoping that the last game is meaningless for both!!!!!

kinaldo

M5 wrote: »

Europe, Villa one major trophy, Newcastle none

Hey don't be selling ourselves short, we won the UEFA Cup in 1969!

Not to mention the Intertoto 3 years ago...

M5

kinaldo wrote: »

Hey don't be selling ourselves short, we won the UEFA Cup in 1969!

Not to mention the Intertoto 3 years ago...

To be fair i think villa won that too at some stage. It would have been a little less important then too....

kinaldo

M5 wrote: »

To be fair i think villa won that too at some stage. It would have been a little less important then too....

The UEFA Cup was most definitely considered a major European trophy. When the European Cup consisted of just domestic champions is was a great competition. Even today I would almost give up a leg to win it.

M5

kinaldo wrote: »

The UEFA Cup was most definitely considered a major European trophy. When the European Cup consisted of just domestic champions is was a great competition. Even today I would almost give up a leg to win it.

one "n" deleted :-)

M5

Table makes pretty horrible reading right now, 4 points from safety. even a win wont get us out of the mire now!

DSB

Anything but a win tomrorow and you can pretty much prepare for life against Doncaster and the likes. I think today was a major turning point against them.

That_Guy

Just back from band practice so didn't catch any of the football results until now. God if we don't win tomorrow we're surely gone.

Very nervous now.