Are the public sector workers/unions in cloud cuckoo land?

meglome

I can see there are several different threads going on with elements of this. Firstly I'd like to say I'm not against anyone here I just really want things to be done right to get us out of this situation as quickly as possible. Our government are utter fools it seems to me and if only it consoled me in some way that I didn't vote for them.

I'm in the private sector but we mostly work with the public sector. I appreciate the argument that the pension levy may not be fair to all. But going through my friends in the private sector many have had their pay cut by 10% plus and a number more have been laid off full stop. All of these people were getting less than the average public sector wage anyway. Actually the only people I know getting more than the average public sector wage run their own businesses (the ones that are still solvent) or in decent management positions in big companies.

I had a meeting in the last two weeks and at the end of the meeting a discussion came up about the private sector and the public sector. I have to say I found their (public sector) views well out of step with A. the private sector people I meet and B. The harsh reality on the ground. There was almost a sense of entitlement which I honestly don't find in the private sector people I know. Really I was asked why hadn't we just all got jobs in the public sector instead of moaning about it. Well I had no idea what they were being paid, I just kept hearing how poor it was, except it wasn't. Not that it would be the work environment for me anyway. One teacher (ex teacher but still technically a teacher) was being paid over 50k and still in her thirties, not management or anything.

So while I'm despairing of how the government have reacted thus far I'm not sure supporting the public sector unions is the message I want to send. I'm worried they would see it as full support of their position and not a protest against the government.

So by calling strikes for what I certainly believe are not the right reasons are they in cloud cuckoo land? Are they just making things worse?

Sorry just wanted to say I was really glad to see that the Impact trade union members didn't vote for strike action.

BroomBurner

Could you not have posted this in one of those many other threads?

Any chance this could be merged?

meglome

BroomBurner wrote: »

Could you not have posted this in one of those many other threads?

Any chance this could be merged?

Well it's a specific question and I asked it.

dresden8

meglome wrote: »

So by calling strikes for what I certainly believe are not the right reasons are they in cloud cuckoo land? Are they just making things worse?

Apparently since we don't do anything economically productive or in anyway useful at all the worst that will happen is you will save a days pay.

Win win.

ParkRunner

meglome wrote: »

So by calling strikes for what I certainly believe are not the right reasons are they in cloud cuckoo land? Are they just making things worse?

Will the government pay any attention? No. Will the government save a packet in not having to pay thousands of union members wages? Yes.

Im sure the government are only too happy with the strike. Revenue has fallen off a cliff anyway so the loss in revenue from the disturbances which the strikes may cause will be more than covered by the savings in not paying wages.

My own union have said the aim of the strike should shift away from the pension levy, away from the pay agreement and towards a campaign for a fair mini budget, which I think is fair enough as they do represent PAYE workers.

BroomBurner

EF wrote: »

My own union have said the aim of the strike should shift away from the pension levy, away from the pay agreement and towards a campaign for a fair mini budget, which I think is fair enough as they do represent PAYE workers.

I didn't know you were a public sector worker?

P. Breathnach

meglome wrote: »

Well it's a specific question and I asked it.

The answer to your specific question is no. The reason why the answer is no is that there is no cloud cuckoo land.

Not much of a question, really.

iseethelight

I'll try an answer from my viewpoint in the civil service.

Firstly the pension levy problem is the inequitable enforcement. Because its tax exempt higher earners take a lesser hit.

It would have been much better for lower paid civil servants if the govt. had decided to suspend all pension contributions from both employee and govt. for 2 or 3 years untill the economy was in better shape.
Also a pay freeze for that period.
The CPSU I believe would have bought this eventually.

Of course this was never suggested because it would affect high paid civil servants and TDs ministers who will retire soon.

As for this day of protest next Monday. The CPSU had only 1 ballot Iwas led to believe for the 1 day strike I was on. I nor any of my colleagues signed up for a 2nd day nor I believe would we. Simply because the CPSU has done nothing but complain. No suggestions.

We all know something has to give but the CPSU seem unwilling to accept it.

ParkRunner

BroomBurner wrote: »

I didn't know you were a public sector worker?

I am for my sins

blast05

Apparently since we don't do anything economically productive or in anyway useful at all the worst that will happen is you will save a days pay.

Hmmm, a 1 week strike by everyone in the public sector with the total public sector pay bill of in excess of 20 billion would mean a saving of 400 million. I think so it would be great if yee could strike 1 week a month for the rest of the year so

It would have been much better for lower paid civil servants if the govt. had decided to suspend all pension contributions from both employee and govt. for 2 or 3 years untill the economy was in better shape.

And would civil servants have accepted an associated lesser final pension - around 5% in this instance ? Not on your life ...

Also a pay freeze for that period.

Oh good Lord, how generous of you :rolleyes:

meglome

dresden8 wrote: »

Apparently since we don't do anything economically productive or in anyway useful at all the worst that will happen is you will save a days pay.

Win win.

Not what I was saying anyway.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The answer to your specific question is no. The reason why the answer is no is that there is no cloud cuckoo land.

Not much of a question, really.

Thanks for your em... input

iseethelight wrote: »

I'll try an answer from my viewpoint in the civil service.

Firstly the pension levy problem is the inequitable enforcement. Because its tax exempt higher earners take a lesser hit.

It would have been much better for lower paid civil servants if the govt. had decided to suspend all pension contributions from both employee and govt. for 2 or 3 years untill the economy was in better shape.
Also a pay freeze for that period.
The CPSU I believe would have bought this eventually.

Of course this was never suggested because it would affect high paid civil servants and TDs ministers who will retire soon.

As for this day of protest next Monday. The CPSU had only 1 ballot Iwas led to believe for the 1 day strike I was on. I nor any of my colleagues signed up for a 2nd day nor I believe would we. Simply because the CPSU has done nothing but complain. No suggestions.

We all know something has to give but the CPSU seem unwilling to accept it.

Very good suggestion.

Gumbo

judging by tour late posting (9.53pm), im sure you are aware that impact members have voted against a strike.

leitrim lad

the unions are in cuckoo land ,im an employer in the private sector and i employ 10 people ,those 10 people are not garunteed steady work for the foreseeable future , i have not taken a weeks wages for my self in 2 years just to insure that my employees are safe.
public servants need to realise that their jobs are safe if they comply with the cuts, and forget the unions ,anyone who is the loudmouth in the class always gets left behind and that is what the unions are.
in the sector im in construction (and im not a builder/developer im the small man at the bottom of the ladder) people like me have been down graded to such a degree that i feel im doing something wrong asking around for work ,my companies are in no difficulties but i will do as much as i can to protect my employees.
i would not have the heart to tell any of them who have young families and houses to pay for that they have no job,so the public servants should pipe down and respect their jobs while they still have them,and forget the unions ,i dont employ union members because they simply do nothing and when you ask them to work they go on strike.
and to look for a pay rise in these times is criminal, take a look at all the families who could end up homeless because of unemployment and then think about a pay rise or a strike:mad:

meglome

kceire wrote: »

judging by tour late posting (9.53pm), im sure you are aware that impact members have voted against a strike.

Actually my bad I should have said that and I thought it was a very good sign. I'm very much in favour of protest but for the right reasons.

Gumbo

leitrim lad wrote: »

the unions are in cuckoo land ,im an employer in the private sector and i employ 10 people ,those 10 people are not garunteed steady work for the foreseeable future , i have not taken a weeks wages for my self in 2 years just to insure that my employees are safe.
public servants need to realise that their jobs are safe if they comply with the cuts, and forget the unions ,anyone who is the loudmouth in the class always gets left behind and that is what the unions are.
in the sector im in construction (and im not a builder/developer im the small man at the bottom of the ladder) people like me have been down graded to such a degree that i feel im doing something wrong asking around for work ,my companies are in no difficulties but i will do as much as i can to protect my employees.
i would not have the heart to tell any of them who have young families and houses to pay for that they have no job,so the public servants should pipe down and respect their jobs while they still have them,and forget the unions ,i dont employ union members because they simply do nothing and when you ask them to work they go on strike.
and to look for a pay rise in these times is criminal, take a look at all the families who could end up homeless because of unemployment and then think about a pay rise or a strike:mad:

how have you been surviving for the last 2 years?

also, PS workers can be sacked, we are employed under the same employment laws as private sector workers.

and lastly, have you been reading any of these posts, because who is looking for a pay rise?

meglome

kceire wrote: »

also, PS workers can be sacked, we are employed under the same employment laws as private sector workers.

Yes they can but how many actually get let go.

kceire wrote: »

and lastly, have you been reading any of these posts, because who is looking for a pay rise?

In fairness to the poster the unions at the very least have been somewhat insistent on getting the pay rises.

dresden8

blast05 wrote: »

Hmmm, a 1 week strike by everyone in the public sector with the total public sector pay bill of in excess of 20 billion would mean a saving of 400 million. I think so it would be great if yee could strike 1 week a month for the rest of the year so

At least it would be fair (silly smiley sh1te)

Gumbo

meglome wrote: »

Yes they can but how many actually get let go.

fingal county council recently let go all their temp technicians and contract technicians, some have been there for 5 years. Kildare county council laid off staff, but im not sure what grades or roles they were.

In fairness to the poster the unions at the very least have been somewhat insistent on getting the pay rises.

but thats the problem, posters go off on a their high horses mouthing off not thinking or reading the facts that most PS workers dont want rises or what the unions want, the unions seem to be on a justifying (sp) spree at the moment.

leitrim lad

the september pay deal with the un elected union leaders equals wanting a pay rise, i know public sector workers can loose their jobs but at the minute it is the safest job to have in the country, i think strike is wrong, we all could protest to the bad things that certain people did in the past but that wont do anything productive for the future, only cause traffic jams in the city, the cuts and rises in tax are coming so it is now time to face the music and get on with it, it will come good again and when it does make the most of it.

Ms Happy

I've bitten my tounge for long enough through the public sector bashing. The reality is not everyone in the public sector is permanent I'm not permanent, I have a contract for another 18 months I know will not be renewed (and if things get any worse I'll be cut next) i'm not on huge wages of 50K a year either, i'm on just under 27K a good bit under the private sector average.

Yes there are people who are permanent, on great wages and do nothing. I love my job work damn hard I'm not like them. I'm still renting as on my low wage I can't get a mortgage, I pay the pension levy too! I'm happy to do my bit (tax/levy etc.) but the levy should have been done more fairly.

Public sector bashers.... don't bother taking my post apart and telling me how lucky I am to have a job etc. I know I'm lucky to have a job. I could go on for ages but whats the point. We should be sticking together through whats to come and stop all the blaming

*rant over*

Godge

leitrim lad wrote: »

,

i have not taken a weeks wages for my self in 2 years just to insure that my employees are safe.

You must have made plenty of money in the good times to be able not to take a weeks wage now. Invested in property, shares, tax-free investments etc.???



,

i dont employ union members because they simply do nothing and when you ask them to work they go on strike.

Oh, so that is how you made so much money, exploited the workers and didn't let them join a union, which is a constitutional right, you know. Did you manage to keep up with the employer contributions to the construction sector pension scheme?

iseethelight

And would civil servants have accepted an associated lesser final pension - around 5% in this instance ? Not on your life ...


I believe most people with more than 10 years left would though of course I stand to be corrected. It would be hard luck on people due to retire soon,but they would have their houses bought and families all grown up and left home.
So yeah I think reasonable people would.

meglome

Ms Happy wrote: »

I've bitten my tounge for long enough through the public sector bashing. The reality is not everyone in the public sector is permanent I'm not permanent, I have a contract for another 18 months I know will not be renewed (and if things get any worse I'll be cut next) i'm not on huge wages of 50K a year either, i'm on just under 27K a good bit under the private sector average.

Yes there are people who are permanent, on great wages and do nothing. I love my job work damn hard I'm not like them. I'm still renting as on my low wage I can't get a mortgage, I pay the pension levy too! I'm happy to do my bit (tax/levy etc.) but the levy should have been done more fairly.

Public sector bashers.... don't bother taking my post apart and telling me how lucky I am to have a job etc. I know I'm lucky to have a job. I could go on for ages but whats the point. We should be sticking together through whats to come and stop all the blaming

*rant over*

I have no argument with you on this. But the reality is it's much worse in the private sector right now and getting worse.

ParkRunner

meglome wrote: »

I have no argument with you on this. But the reality is it's much worse in the private sector right now and getting worse.

Would a better thread have been then what can the private sector do now to rebuild our economy rather than focussing on what the unions are flapping about?
Public expenditure is being cut and will be cut more but nothing will be achieved until a real (not false) economy is created and built upon by the supposed wealth generating part of our economy

Godge

meglome wrote: »

I have no argument with you on this. But the reality is it's much worse in the private sector right now and getting worse.

Let us be honest, in some parts of the private sector. some of us are still doing all right.

leitrim lad

i have nothing against public sector workers ,they provide sereral usefull services ,but if the unions dont pipe down there will be blood spilt and no need for it .
i have contributed alot to a pension for my employees (cpcs) and i think the world of them they all get the same 13 clear per hour and time and half over 39 hours, i made money in good times and i still am making money and i dont exploit anyone my employes and i have an agreement and its no unions

meglome

EF wrote: »

Would a better thread have been then what can the private sector do now to rebuild our economy rather than focussing on what the unions are flapping about?
Public expenditure is being cut and will be cut more but nothing will be achieved until a real (not false) economy is created and built upon by the supposed wealth generating part of our economy

Well maybe so. But the unions have been making sounds/moves that I'm very uncomfortable about and I believe could make things worse.

meglome

Godge wrote: »

Let us be honest, in some parts of the private sector. some of us are still doing all right.

True I'm doing okay myself so far but the majority are not. But we have cut back everything to be very safe.

ParkRunner

meglome wrote: »

Well maybe so. But the unions have been making sounds/moves that I'm very uncomfortable about and I believe could make things worse.

That is what they are paid to do in fairness. Their actions have made no difference from what I can see apart from where employees are being left with no jobs in trying to secure a half decent redundancy package (SR Technics, Waterford Crystal).
To expect a Union to advocate pay cuts for its members now would be similar to expecting an estate agent/bank to advise its customers that they actually shouldn't go for such an insanely overvalued investment/crippling lifetime of debt

givyjoe81

kceire wrote: »

how have you been surviving for the last 2 years?

also, PS workers can be sacked, we are employed under the same employment laws as private sector workers.

and lastly, have you been reading any of these posts, because who is looking for a pay rise?

Didnt you mean to say, 'technically' public service workers can be sacked?! Come off would ya, how many public service workers.. including the big guns have been sacked over the last few months?! The amount of jokers that sail through the PS without ever coming close to be sacked is just mind boggling, i know of such utter clowns and also people in the PS who tell me about such unsackable(so it seems) clowns. Id like to see some unbiased figures but i dont think its a leap to suggest that the PS has abnormally low sacking rate, and its not as if as a whole its overperforming to justify this!

givyjoe81

mikemac wrote: »

You seem a genuine guy but no wages for two wages?
Either you're a martyr keeping ten people employed or you're a sucker.
Either way fair play on owning your business



You do realise it's a constitutional right.
I don't work in construction but if I interviewed for your company and you turned me down for this reason you'd be wide open to a claim. And rightly so

Dont know how to put to two quotes in one post, sorry!

Although it is a constitutional right if his company does not recognise unions then it will serve you no benefit while working there. This constitutional right can also be given up by a new employee and so often it has been, almost exclusively by private sector workers, who are offered great terms and conditions by US multinationals, but unfortunately when times are bad, their jobs go silently into the night, and im sorry thats just a harsh reality.

You cannot expect a company to lose money hand over fist just to keep people in a job. And thats a lesson the public service need to realise,just like a company cannot afford to keep losing money and continue to operate, the goverment must recognise these simple economic realities when dealing with their EMPLOYEES...i havent seen many if any alternatives to the pension levy, except BS like 'dodgy bankers, why bail them out etc etc'...Irrelvant at this stage, so i wont regurgitate all thats gone before.