Are the public sector workers/unions in cloud cuckoo land?

ArphaRima

I'm a member of IMPACT. I work for a listed private company.
My union is under IMPACT.

I was extremely unhappy with proposals to join in the national day of strikes. I am an educated professional, and I understand basic economics. I expect to take a hit on my take-home pay this year, especially in my top tier of tax, and of course my salary.
I was also due an increase under T16. I think it's outrageous that some unions are still looking for it.
Just about every interest group in the country will hijack this march/day of protest, and I want nothing to do with the majority of them.
I have no interest in giving support to the PS unions. They know they had it good the last few years, and know they have a strong position in that they can shut down the country overnight. I will have no part in that continued blackmail.
For this reason I am glad that IMPACT voted down participation in the ICTU day of protest. I see any attempt to circumvent that vote as downright undemocratic.

I am hoping the government sees that the general population does not support the CS unions, and that they will be safe in taking them on.

Unions are dominated by CS and PS interests, socialist principles etc. I feel we need some right wing, hardcore government responses to the CS right now.

irish_bob

i dont think public sector workers or unions are in cloud cuckoo land , i think they are simply pure selfish and willing to bleed the rest of us dry such is their sense of entitlement

the unions and anyone who strikes with them at the moment are nothing short of traitors to this country

DadaKopf

It's interesting to note that among the EU-15, Irish private sectors are among the lowest paid and the spending power of what they earn is lower than our continental counterparts. At the same time, inequality of earnings has increased considerably as the rate of pay to business-owners and managers, rather than employees, has increased far beyond the levels found in the continent. Evidence suggests that this has badly affected our productivity.

At the same time, reports show that the private sector is more inefficient and badly managed than our EU-15 counterparts. The Irish Competitiveness Council and the National Economic and Social Council recognised this in the last number of years. Yet we would get the impression through the media that it is only the public sector that is hopelessly inefficient. This inefficiency is partly the result of bad management, so what justifies the supernormal profits accruing to business-owners and managers if they're not doing their job properly? [Please don't take this to imply that there are no decent employers, nor that employers are all running badly managed companies; these are trends that have been identified by research organisations, so I feel they're valid and relevant to bring up.]

The government has also mismanaged things. Especially the expansion of the public sector. Firstly, as the recent OECD report shows, the Irish public service is not too big - what it says is that for a comparatively small public sector, it has achieved a lot, but that has been in spite of poor planning, poor implementation, poor governance structures, low levels of funding and resources, too few financial controls, and the wrong kinds of management.

It condemns the government's 'agencification' of the public service - the quick fix solution of setting up stand-alone quangos separate from any ministerial or democratic accountability. The manner in which resources have been wasted through poor HR policies - the HSE being a case in point. The failure to set clear criteria for the creation and dissolution of agencies, junior ministries and so on. That the public service should be performance-based and that positions should not be permanent, and that positions should be transferable across departments and agencies - what it calls 'the wider public service'.

In other words, while we do not have a big enough public service, those people in redundant jobs could be transferred to other jobs where their skills could be put to good use - if only this could happen in the HSE.

At the same time, private sector workers need 'flexicurity': an acceptance of a softer labour market but a guarantee of strong and simple social insurance programmes to ensure a stable quality of life for all while re-skilling. Economic analyses by economists such as Dani Rodrik have also forcefully made the case that small, peripheral, trade-open economies like ourselves are so vulnerable to crises like this that we need social security and critical infrastructure much more than other countries.

But this notion that we have a 'generous welfare state' is not true. For example, a single person claiming benefits in Ireland receives the second least amount of transfers of all EU-15 states. Rent relief is scarcely available. After accounting for real spending power (the real amount that each euro buys in Ireland vs. other countries), this amount shrinks even further.

I don't doubt that serious actions in relation to taxation, expenditure and pay need to be taken to avoid national bankruptcy, but I feel these points aren't being made in the debate and they're critical to forging an equitable plan to get us out of this.

jimmmy

leitrim lad wrote: »

the unions are in cuckoo land ,im an employer in the private sector and i employ 10 people ,those 10 people are not garunteed steady work for the foreseeable future , i have not taken a weeks wages for my self in 2 years just to insure that my employees are safe.

You are not the only one. Many a self employed person is just scraping by too, but have no option of just going on to the dole, as they would not qualify.
The public sector workers are indeed in cloud cuckoo land.

leitrim lad

well join the gang ,all self employed subees ,we get grief for being in the trade and apperently we earn billions accoerding to union leaders, that is why i dont employ union members, but i do pay into the cwps for my employees.
i think it should be put to public sector workers either your job or strike and strike means P45,there are a couple of hundred thousand unemployed workers in the country ready to take public sector jobs, so it evens itself out, get the honest people back to work

stevoman

jimmmy wrote: »

The public sector workers are indeed in cloud cuckoo land.

sweeping generalisation IMO.

Im a civil servant, 9 years in and i was making €488 a week until the 1% levy and then my "pension levy" came in. Now i make €450. I also have a year old daughter and a partner who cannot get any work and cannot draw the dole as she was a studying and hasnt got enough stamps built up. I have a mortgage to pay and i have to pay bills and run a car etc so YES, i will be striking as i find it very unfair that as a lower paid civil servant i have been hit with a pay cut. And i am not on cloud cuckoo land , wherever it exsists.

And i have put up with the measly wage for the last 9 years because of job security. i have watched my firends lauph and brag to me in good times about howe crap my wage was but i put up with it because i knew my job was safe. IMO that was enough of a sacrafice in good times to watch others make a lot while i kept up with a crappy wage. but know im expected to take even less of a crappy wage becaouse the very ones who were making the money are now crying to me about it. i dont think so.

SEPT 23 1989

jimmmy wrote: »

You are not the only one. Many a self employed person is just scraping by too, but have no option of just going on to the dole, as they would not qualify.
The public sector workers are indeed in cloud cuckoo land.

i am self employed and my company is just surviving week to week i am taking
no wages just to keep it going,hoping that this disaster comes to an end soon,
no one is speaking for the self employed in this country and we are suffering the most,if the government think the revenue returns were bad recently wait and see whats coming down the road there will not be enough money to pay for the public service:mad:

DadaKopf

stevoman wrote: »

sweeping generalisation IMO.

Im a civil servant, 9 years in and i was making €488 a week until the 1% levy and then my "pension levy" came in. Now i make €450. I also have a year old daughter and a partner who cannot get any work and cannot draw the dole as she was a studying and hasnt got enough stamps built up. I have a mortgage to pay and i have to pay bills and run a car etc so YES, i will be striking as i find it very unfair that as a lower paid civil servant i have been hit with a pay cut. And i am not on cloud cuckoo land , wherever it exsists.

And i have put up with the measly wage for the last 9 years because of job security. i have watched my firends lauph and brag to me in good times about howe crap my wage was but i put up with it because i knew my job was safe. IMO that was enough of a sacrafice in good times to watch others make a lot while i kept up with a crappy wage. but know im expected to take even less of a crappy wage becaouse the very ones who were making the money are now crying to me about it. i dont think so.

I understand your situation. I haven't a mortgage or a family, so I'm not as badly off and shudder to think how stressful things would be for me if I did. But I chose to work in the charity sector, I accepted that I would earn low wages serving others. Now I'm unemployed. I've been on low wages my whole working life and haven't even got job security, but I wholly support the union's argument to struggle for an equitable plan to get us out of this mess. The vulnerable should not suffer.

stevoman

DadaKopf wrote: »

I understand your situation. I haven't a mortgage or a family, so I'm not as badly off and shudder to think how stressful things would be for me if I did. But I chose to work in the charity sector, I accepted that I would earn low wages serving others. Now I'm unemployed. I've been on low wages my whole working life and haven't even got job security, but I wholly support the union's argument to struggle for an equitable plan to get us out of this mess. The vulnerable should not suffer.

thanks for the support and i hope things get better for you too!

i just think that their has been a sweeping generalisation of "public servants" and the goverment let its workers down by letting the media turn it into a scapegoat for the failing econamy and a witchhunt for anyone that takes a goverment payceque.

Gumbo

irish_bob wrote: »

i dont think public sector workers or unions are in cloud cuckoo land , i think they are simply pure selfish and willing to bleed the rest of us dry such is their sense of entitlement

the unions and anyone who strikes with them at the moment are nothing short of traitors to this country

jimmmy wrote: »

You are not the only one. Many a self employed person is just scraping by too, but have no option of just going on to the dole, as they would not qualify.
The public sector workers are indeed in cloud cuckoo land.

talk about trolling. have any of you 2 read any other posts in this thread or one of the other ongoing threads?

private sector workers are doing great, they are getting no pay cuts at the moment.


i know the above isint true, but my me saying it doesnt make it true, just like the above quotes, it is super generalisation to the extreme.

leitrim lad

read back too last night i am too self employed my friend i employ 10 people and i havent taken wages for myself for over 2 years now justto protect my longstanding employees, i cut everything that was unnecessary spending from the companies ,including my salary,i made it in tgood times and im making my savings last now.
rearing a young family on pittence every week just to make sure we have evough for the next week ,and i would rather do away with myself than tell someones father he had no job,and the cheek of some un elected p***k of a union leader to attempt strike ,and dont forget the unions thought they could bully the government that was voted in by the people ,to up their pay along with that, well they need to be thought a lesson some ogf them union leaders ase worse than any banker/developer ever was

Naz_st

Ms Happy wrote: »

Yes there are people who are permanent, on great wages and do nothing. I love my job work damn hard I'm not like them.

stevoman wrote: »

sweeping generalisation IMO.

kceire wrote: »

it is super generalisation to the extreme

Unions breed generalisations, pretty much by definition. You can't have it both ways:

PS Unions: "We demand everyone be treated the same!"

PS Worker in union on Boards: "How dare you make a sweeping generalisation - you can't treat all workers the same! Some of us work very hard (though I agree there are some people who just feck about)"

So long as the unions consistently rally against a scalpal-like cutting off of inefficiency in the form of selective redundancy, and against any real form of performance related pay increases and sanctions, generalisations are inevitable. Their approach maintains inefficiency (equal payrise rewards for both the very hard worker and the waster) while making any expenditure cuts made by the government guaranteed to be unfair to someone.

So I agree that all three of you are absolutely right about the generalisations being unfair. They're guaranteed to be unfair by virtue of the fact that you can't treat everyone the same, because everyone is demonstrably not the same. Which is the point you're all making. Now just go and tell your union leaders that!

You can't have your cake and eat it.

jimmmy

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

i am self employed and my company is just surviving week to week i am taking
no wages just to keep it going,hoping that this disaster comes to an end soon,
no one is speaking for the self employed in this country and we are suffering the most,if the government think the revenue returns were bad recently wait and see whats coming down the road there will not be enough money to pay for the public service:mad:

I agree 100%. Many a self employeed person is in the same boat as yourself. Many are digging in to savings and borrowings. I am a peaceful person, but when I hear of public servants wanting to strike it makes me sick ...I know lots who would settle for half their pay and perks.

BroomBurner

I'd just like to express my unequivical gratitude to all those hard-done by self-employed, private sector workers that have kept this country afloat. From me, to you:

It must have been cold there in my shadow,
to never have sunlight on your face
You were content to let me shine, that's your way,
You always walked a step behind

So I was the one with all the glory
while you were the one with all the strength
A beautiful name without a face, for so long,
A beautiful job to hide the pain

Did you ever know that you're my hero
and everything I would like to be
I can fly higher than an eagle
'cause you are the wind beneath my wings


Midler really did say it best. Thank you all.

leitrim lad

i totally understand certain people are worried in the public sector who are on contract ,but come on the bloddy gaurds arent handing out p45s every day of the week ,neither is the revenue, or the hse as far as that goes ,so why go on strike over firstly a pension that you can look forward to and secondly the garuntee or a steady job, keep up the strikes and we will see how smart ye unions are when the country goes under and the imf have to be brought in

Dob74

I am self empolyed, but I think the unions have a right to be pissed off.
Why haven't there been any arrests of the white collar crimials.
They are the one's who fcuked up the economy.

After the last day of action on saturday by tuesday the cops where in Anglo.
It only took 3 month for Mandoff to get a life sentence.
Why hasnt anything been done in this country?

The highest paid civil servants and the highest paid bankers should be the first to pay. They had there hands on the levers of power. And they messed up. So tax, fine and imprison the wrong do'ers. Then go after paye workers.

leitrim lad

the union leaders are all a bunch of wafflers who dont understand politics or how to run a country , i personally wouldnt let them run a tap for me. they are not voted in by the people of the state into power therefore they are not entitled to tell the countries leaders how they should be running the country, they badly need to be taught a lesson a crowd of bluffers siptu and impact , did you ever hear such shute in all your life , my opinion of a lesson is a lorry load of p45s for anyone who attempts strike that would teach them whos boss

leitrim lad

25- 30k is enough of a salary for anyone no matter how important you think you are ,white collar criminals should be jailed in along with the addicts ,and that brian goggins fellow is lucky to be alive, who in their right mind is unable to answer a straight question how much do you earn per year, the same with the top notch in the hse and fas couldnt lie straight in the bed let alone answer a question.
i am able to tell anyone straight away what each of my companies earn per hour let alone per year ,let them cut the bull crowd of wafflers the whole lot of them

stevoman

leitrim lad wrote: »

the union leaders are all a bunch of wafflers who dont understand politics or how to run a country.

my opinion of a lesson is a lorry load of p45s for anyone who attempts strike that would teach them whos boss

So how would you run the country apart from your suggestion to lay off any worker who attempts to strike and have their voices heard? obviously more lay offs would effect the economy more, as more people would join the dole queues and bring the country into even more of a recession. also by stripping the people of their basic rights to strike is almost on a line with communism.

leitrim lad wrote: »

25- 30k is enough of a salary for anyone no matter how important you think you are

so i make 30K a year. out of that i have to pay my mortgage. now down to my crappy €450 a week because of the levy. out of that i have to afford my mortgage, my car, petrol, bills, shopping, my baby daughter etc.

so you think 25-35k is enough for anyone. so thats your suggestion we all just get that across the boards.

thanks for the input stalin.

leitrim lad

plenty of people on the dole who would be glad to take a job in the public sector, and never strike, read back trough my posts i havent taken a weeks wages in over 2 years now from any of my companies ,nor do i take a cut of the profits at the year end ,i dont own big deposit accounts or masses of stacks and shares ,anything i have to live off i worked very hard for it , and i am able to live so is my young family , but most importantly my employees who also have young families can survive on hust under 35k per year and they make the most of it too.and because i cut my own wages my employees still have jobs

Lockstep

I think a lot of people seem to assume unions=public sector workers.

I'm in Mandate (lost my job in November), they're losing a lot of people due to the instabilty on the lower rungs of the private sector.

P. Breathnach

leitrim lad wrote: »

25- 30k is enough of a salary for anyone no matter how important you think you are ...

No wonder you refuse to employ members of trade unions.

hobochris

Answer to thread question: yes.

/ end of thread

leitrim lad

in some cases yes the union works but that is very few and far between mainly beacuse in those cases everyone thinks they are yupees or they all beieive they are worth the sun moon and stars, but 99% of cases the union makes a mess of it and the workers end up worse off than when they started and in my eyes no one should have the right to strike in this sort of climate ,they simply should be glad to have an income at all.

stevoman

leitrim lad wrote: »

plenty of people on the dole who would be glad to take a job in the public sector, and never strike

Yes but my point is when times where good nobody who is in the dole queues now was bothered looking for a job in the "public sector". the competitions were all there for people to sit down and do the exam. everybody has the same oppurtunities.

in fact in the early 90's the exam halls were packed with people trying to get a public service job. then as the years passed there was a sharp decline in people who were applying for these competitions, espeically for the civil service. nobody wanted the crappy pay.

personally im very glad that has soon as i left school i made the career choice and had the hindsight to join the civil service for the very reasons of a steady job and i was willing to sacrifice good pay during the boom years to have that security. i just think its very unfair that it has taken me NINE years to reach €488 a week to have money taken back from me.

Mal-Adjusted

meglome wrote: »

I'm in the private sector but we mostly work with the public sector. I appreciate the argument that the pension levy may not be fair to all. But going through my friends in the private sector many have had their pay cut by 10% plus and a number more have been laid off full stop. All of these people were getting less than the average public sector wage anyway. Actually the only people I know getting more than the average public sector wage run their own businesses (the ones that are still solvent) or in decent management positions in big companies.

I had a meeting in the last two weeks and at the end of the meeting a discussion came up about the private sector and the public sector. I have to say I found their (public sector) views well out of step with A. the private sector people I meet and B. The harsh reality on the ground. There was almost a sense of entitlement which I honestly don't find in the private sector people I know. Really I was asked why hadn't we just all got jobs in the public sector instead of moaning about it. Well I had no idea what they were being paid, I just kept hearing how poor it was, except it wasn't. Not that it would be the work environment for me anyway. One teacher (ex teacher but still technically a teacher) was being paid over 50k and still in her thirties, not management or anything.

to be honest, no offense, but this just seems like somebody whining that they're not paid as much as someone in the public sector.

these workers are just trying to safeguard their jobs & livleyhoods...you'd all do the same. it's not as ifthey get a free ride, they pay taxes just like you do.

It's unfair to harass public servants lite teachers & doctors/nurses. look at the underfunded schools & hospitals! how much money do you actually think trickles down to them? the "bloated public sector" (and it is) is caused (at least partially) by middle management and so-called quangos

leitrim lad

if you look to the future i know your packet each week seems small but you have a pension contribution aswell, i myself got stung with aib ,i contribute to the cwps but i also had a pension with aib ark life, and lets just say it is now worth half what i paid into it but in 35 years time when i retire it may be worth something then , but strike is the wrong way to go , if the tea pot is empty you cannot still fill your mug from it and striking for a pension levy,a tax rise ,and the pay deal that cannot be afforded is one way of ending up on the dole que, the unions must understand that the country cannot afford this, and will not put itself into billions worth of unnecessary debt just to satisfy a union

Mal-Adjusted

we did it just to satisfy a few bankers

ros244

Ok, I don’t normally post or rant, just read and observe, but thought this time I’d give my own opinion. I’m currently living/working overseas in Europe but employed by Irish company and still paying taxes in Ireland. I would prefer to be back working in Ireland, but am currently happy to hold onto whatever I have at moment, for how long it will last. No dependants. This is just some background.

Do we blame government? No. I believe we blame our whole culture of greed. And I am not excluding myself here. In good times we are all happy to get our pay rises, and not question the inflationary effect of this. If we don’t get what we want we get our Unions to make some noise and hold the company (or government in case of public sector companies) to ransom for that increase. I have felt and said for a number of years (during the Celtic Tiger) this would cause multinational companies to look elsewhere. Well the day has come! A company in difficulty has the options cut costs or fold. This means pay cuts, job cuts, and other measures. Horrible for all involved (including those making the decisions). But at the end of the day, it is those that make those difficult decisions (and get hated for it) that will eventually save a company from collapse. At this point popular politics is not what we need. Company / Country – where is the difference?
I personally visited Argentina a number of years back after their economy had just went through some severe turmoil, and from what I saw it is absolutely to be avoided by any means.

Anyway, getting back to my main reason for posting. We are a nation of highly intellectual people on average, who are going around at the moment hands over the ears, eyes closed saying la la la la (thinking…it will all go away if we ignore it, knowing…it won’t).

People say the Government are inept. Maybe so, but how inept can the opposition be to not realize it is a positive approach to assisting the current incumbants is what this country really needs at the moment. Personally I don’t give a damn at moment who is to blame. We need to plan our way forward. All this negative / counterproductive attitude of blame will not get us out of a recession. We can have a massive multi-billion euro tribunal in another few years to figure out who should we go after for a €40k donation they got inappropriately. Now don’t get me wrong, in a just society white collar crime cannot go unpunished, but lets create some priorities and not put a plaster on an open head wound. These tribunals of past years must surely be the most impressive example of complete greed and INEFFICIENCY which is rife in the country and needs to be eradicated.

Again, we are an intellectual race. Lets get inventive, lets get positive, and lets get the outside world to believe in us again.

Michael O’Leary for Taoiseach. He won’t have difficulty making the decisions.

Lu Tze

stevoman wrote: »

sweeping generalisation IMO.

Im a civil servant, 9 years in and i was making €488 a week ...
And i have put up with the measly wage for the last 9 years because of job security.

i just think its very unfair that it has taken me NINE years to reach €488 a week to have money taken back from me.

Really? Measly? You went in with your primary qualification as your leaving certificate, how much do you expect to earn?

You chose CS/PS for job security? I presume there are equivalent jobs to yours in the private sector (hazarding a guess here, clerical officer?) are you really telling me that during the good years you would have been on 40-50k doing the same work?

9 years in, if you are in a vastly different role, singled out for management by your good work ethic or ability, and got promoted to higher grades and are managing people then yes you are being under paid.

If your work has not changed dramatically in those nine years though you should be on the equivalent rate of pay of somebody just starting in the same job.

We are employed by what we are worth in the private sector. And for all the clerical officers out there starting off, it should be minimum wage as the work does not require any skill set beyond basic communications.