Are the public sector workers/unions in cloud cuckoo land?

leitrim lad

alot of it is who you know and socalise with aswell, take the nra for example, a new company tenders a contract for the nra ,has the relevant expierence and funding to back them truogh out the project ,their tender is shredded, another company who has contacts in the nra gets it , and cleans up on extras , the amount of wasted money on some of their projects is unreal, i know i seen it first hand

P. Breathnach

ros244 wrote: »

...Michael O’Leary for Taoiseach. He won’t have difficulty making the decisions.

Ryanair have called for the army to deal with any strike in Dublin Airport. I don't want Michael O'Leary as Taoiseach.

P. Breathnach

leitrim lad wrote: »

alot of it is who you know and socalise with aswell, take the nra for example, a new company tenders a contract for the nra ,has the relevant expierence and funding to back them truogh out the project ,their tender is shredded, another company who has contacts in the nra gets it , and cleans up on extras , the amount of wasted money on some of their projects is unreal, i know i seen it first hand

That's a serious allegation. Can you back it up?

leitrim lad

he is another funny man ,if they do strike in the airport he will just go out and take the mick out of them infront of an rte camera, and he always gets the last laugh

ros244

I actually agree with you on Michael O'Leary. Put him in specifically because of the 'Army to the airport' issue, but just to illustrate a point.

These Mass strikes will not be in any way productive. We do need the tough decisions. Anyway, that's my 2 pence worth. I'm out!

leitrim lad

yip i have seen it myself ,ring the nra yourself and see how far you will get on the phone,request tender documents from them and they hang up.
i was working on one particular road job where the engineer marked a culvert in the wrong place by 10 meters. we worked the whole weekend at the taxpayers expence putting in the culvert, road closed and all, to come in on monday morning and start digging 10 meters further up the road ,and on the invoice to the nra the wrong culvert was put in as an extra for future development, prob cost the taxpayer half a million or so

P. Breathnach

leitrim lad wrote: »

yip i have seen it myself ,ring the nra yourself and see how far you will get on the phone,request tender documents from them and they hang up.
i was working on one particular road job where the engineer marked a culvert in the wrong place by 10 meters. we worked the whole weekend at the taxpayers expence putting in the culvert, road closed and all, to come in on monday morning and start digging 10 meters further up the road ,and on the invoice to the nra the wrong culvert was put in as an extra for future development, prob cost the taxpayer half a million or so

Stay in one place until things are finished there. I asked you to back up an allegation about shredding tenders and awarding contracts to another company that has "contacts in the nra". Instead of dealing with that, off you go on another tangent.

Mal-Adjusted

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Stay in one place until things are finished there. I asked you to back up an allegation about shredding tenders and awarding contracts to another company that has "contacts in the nra". Instead of dealing with that, off you go on another tangent.

+1

stevoman

Lu Tze wrote: »

Really? Measly? You went in with your primary qualification as your leaving certificate, how much do you expect to earn?

You chose CS/PS for job security? I presume there are equivalent jobs to yours in the private sector (hazarding a guess here, clerical officer?) are you really telling me that during the good years you would have been on 40-50k doing the same work?

9 years in, if you are in a vastly different role, singled out for management by your good work ethic or ability, and got promoted to higher grades and are managing people then yes you are being under paid.

If your work has not changed dramatically in those nine years though you should be on the equivalent rate of pay of somebody just starting in the same job.

We are employed by what we are worth in the private sector. And for all the clerical officers out there starting off, it should be minimum wage as the work does not require any skill set beyond basic communications.

nine years ago i started off making about £270 a week it has taken me 9 years just to get to €488.

yes i have other qualifications including a post leaving certificate course in computing and also i have passed all my ecdl exams.

i am currently on a panel for promotion although that panel has now been suspended due to the recession and i wont be getting it and i will have to wait years before another internal/external exam/competition will arise and then i will have to put vast amounts of work in again to get the same result from tests and interviews as i have got last time.

yes my job and role profile has changed vastly in the last 9 years i have have changed departments and have taken on far more responablities than i had when i started.

so you say a clerical officer starting out should be one minimum wage as they do not require any skill set beyond basic communications?

so can you please answer me this then?

where have you studied the enrty level exams for the civil service that you can ascertain such a view?

certainly then people must turn up and instead of sitting exams and interviews they just prove they have basic communications skills?

so the english exams, the maths exams, the role playing exams and the irish exams have nothing to do with it. and by the way entry level clerical officers in the civil service start off under 25K.

stevoman

Lu Tze wrote: »

I presume there are equivalent jobs to yours in the private sector (hazarding a guess here, clerical officer?) are you really telling me that during the good years you would have been on 40-50k doing the same work?

could you also kindly please highlight where i really told you that during the good years i would have been on 40-50k for doing the same work in the private sector?

perhaps you are jumping in on your high horse too quickly to read back properly though my other posts.

i am not looking for more money, i am opposing a pay cut.

leitrim lad

one particular bypass came up for tender in my area, now there was 2 of us that would have been able to undertake it locally so we tendered the nra via etenders notices for the bypass, cost me about 100k to estimate and quote the complete job,would have been 18 months work for 150 people locally,but nra representative from co meath had the cheek to tell us one day while carrying out site investagation that we were not entitled to be even on the land where the road was going (my uncle owned the land at the time)this opened a can of worms, 2 weeks later it was announced that a co meath company had got the bypass but were 5 million deerer than my tender, when i requested a list from the nra of the top 10 applicaints which i am entitled to do they told me that my documents had been lost,or misplaced in their office and could not be found and were morethan likely binned, also the county chairperson was from the same town as the contractors in co meath

hobochris

stevoman wrote: »

and by the way entry level clerical officers in the civil service start off under 25K.

As do many Skilled graduates with honor's Degree's in the private sector.

P. Breathnach

leitrim lad wrote: »

one particular bypass came up for tender in my area, now there was 2 of us that would have been able to undertake it locally so we tendered the nra via etenders notices for the bypass, cost me about 100k to estimate and quote the complete job,would have been 18 months work for 150 people locally,but nra representative from co meath had the cheek to tell us one day while carrying out site investagation that we were not entitled to be even on the land where the road was going (my uncle owned the land at the time)this opened a can of worms, 2 weeks later it was announced that a co meath company had got the bypass but were 5 million deerer than my tender, when i requested a list from the nra of the top 10 applicaints which i am entitled to do they told me that my documents had been lost,or misplaced in their office and could not be found and were morethan likely binned, also the county chairperson was from the same town as the contractors in co meath

That's interesting. What did you do about it?

I find it difficult to imagine that you would have put that much effort and cost into preparing a tender, form an impression that it was not fairly evaluated, and then walk away from it without making at least a little fuss.

P. Breathnach

hobochris wrote: »

As do many Skilled graduates with honor's Degree's in the private sector.

That seems to me to be unlikely unless they are not working in their area of qualification (and yes, I know a lot of that happens: there are not many private sector jobs for historians).

leitrim lad

beleive it or not on that particular bypass i ended up subcontracting, the majority of the work all apart from the bridges from the co meath company and i must say they were good payers cheqe via return post, they told me that even tough i had my set rates by the cube it was cheaper for them to sub the work to me than use their own equipment, i didnt do the tar either , and not getting away from it but the amount of money that is wasted on such jobs is showing now when contractors are able to provide tenders with 30% lower estimates than normal and still make huge profits.

ParkRunner

The Government has invited the unions back to talks on an economic recovery plan. It looks like there is a good chance the strike won't go ahead afterall!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0324/breaking20.htm

Lu Tze

stevoman wrote: »

could you also kindly please highlight where i really told you that during the good years i would have been on 40-50k for doing the same work in the private sector?

No, that was an exaggeration to make a point, what you actually said

personally im very glad that has soon as i left school i made the career choice and had the hindsight to join the civil service for the very reasons of a steady job and i was willing to sacrifice good pay during the boom years to have that security. i just think its very unfair that it has taken me NINE years to reach €488 a week to have money taken back from me.

where have you studied the enrty level exams for the civil service that you can ascertain such a view?

certainly then people must turn up and instead of sitting exams and interviews they just prove they have basic communications skills?

so the english exams, the maths exams, the role playing exams and the irish exams have nothing to do with it. and by the way entry level clerical officers in the civil service start off under 25K.

I have no idea what the aptitude test entails, however during my time seconded into a local authority, the job description of the lower grades seemed to entail photocopying, filing and answering phonecalls and typing(feel free to correct me). I would say basic communication skills and hand eye coordination cover that.

Perhaps my understanding of what they did was flawed and there was far more complicated work behind the scenes going on, however i firmly believe 25k is far too much to be paying for this, as it is on a par with skilled labour and professions.

yes i have other qualifications including a post leaving certificate course in computing and also i have passed all my ecdl exams

Glad to see you have the drive to better yourself i hope your superiors recognise that.

I have an honours degree in engineering and i started on 3k more than a clerical officer.
I have partaken in engineering competitions, attended lectures, gone on training courses all as part of my professional development. It is my performance at work that dictates my pay, and at the moment, whether i will be the next to be let go

jimmmy

I think the point Leitrim lad was making was the ....well, unfairness is the kindest word I can think of...of the N.R.A. I know of one N.R.A project where some land was acquired by compulsory acquisition, as is the norm. The owner of the land received only half the amount in compensation compared to what the same size piece of land went for at public auction literally next door / adjacent to the CPO'd land. The underbidder at the auction was the valuer acting for the CPO, yet the most the property owner could get for the CPO'd land was half that.

hobochris

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That seems to me to be unlikely unless they are not working in their area of qualification (and yes, I know a lot of that happens: there are not many private sector jobs for historians).

you'd be surprised. There are many who go into their area of qualification and get this type of money, the degree is the foot in the door, its experience that gets you up the pay ladder. I'm in I.T and know many In my graduating class that started out in the low 20's ... Ive recently had my Pay cut along with my colleagues in an emergency Pay cut.. I'm now on 23k as a result.

The way I see it though is its better then the dole which is were Id be if my employers didn't take these measures. But that's the reality of the private sector.

many in the private sector realized this months ago, Its now up to the public sector to cop onto this reality otherwise they will be forced to when they find themselves joining the ever growing dole queues.

*Honey*

leitrim lad wrote: »

i have nothing against public sector workers ,they provide sereral usefull services ,but if the unions dont pipe down there will be blood spilt and no need for it .
i have contributed alot to a pension for my employees (cpcs) and i think the world of them they all get the same 13 clear per hour and time and half over 39 hours, i made money in good times and i still am making money and i dont exploit anyone my employes and i have an agreement and its no unions

You are aware that it's the right of every person to belong to a Union? What would happen if one of your employees said they wanted to join one? Fire them? Everyone has the right to have some collective protection even if you don't like it.

Lockstep

*Honey* wrote: »

You are aware that it's the right of every person to belong to a Union? What would happen if one of your employees said they wanted to join one? Fire them? Everyone has the right to have some collective protection even if you don't like it.

+1

We all have a right to join unions (freedom of association) and if someone could prove that they were fired because of union membership you could have a very sticky situation on your hands.

oscarBravo

*Honey* wrote: »

You are aware that it's the right of every person to belong to a Union? What would happen if one of your employees said they wanted to join one? Fire them? Everyone has the right to have some collective protection even if you don't like it.

Unfortunately, it doesn't cut both ways; some jobs are closed shops and only union members can take them up, which is discriminatory.

leitrim lad

i just dont employ union members and thats it ,my employees have no reason to join a union,there getting what they need and more in some cases,when i started out first trading i was 16 by 17 i had 3 people working for me and one of them was in a union and guess who always kicked up when they were told to do something,guess who went on strike when it started raining, so i said to my self to pot with union members when he refused to do what he was told one sunny
day he was sacked. more trouble than he was worth, and of course some gobsheen called to see me (union rep) and he got ran like a dog down the road too, i wont have them idiots telling me how to run my business nor will i tolerate them trying to tell our government how to run the country

Stheno

leitrim lad wrote: »

read back too last night i am too self employed my friend i employ 10 people and i havent taken wages for myself for over 2 years now justto protect my longstanding employees, i cut everything that was unnecessary spending from the companies ,including my salary,i made it in tgood times and im making my savings last now.
rearing a young family on pittence every week just to make sure we have evough for the next week ,and i would rather do away with myself than tell someones father he had no job,and the cheek of some un elected p***k of a union leader to attempt strike ,and dont forget the unions thought they could bully the government that was voted in by the people ,to up their pay along with that, well they need to be thought a lesson some ogf them union leaders ase worse than any banker/developer ever was

leitrim lad wrote: »

the union leaders are all a bunch of wafflers who dont understand politics or how to run a country , i personally wouldnt let them run a tap for me. they are not voted in by the people of the state into power therefore they are not entitled to tell the countries leaders how they should be running the country, they badly need to be taught a lesson a crowd of bluffers siptu and impact , did you ever hear such shute in all your life , my opinion of a lesson is a lorry load of p45s for anyone who attempts strike that would teach them whos boss

leitrim lad wrote: »

in some cases yes the union works but that is very few and far between mainly beacuse in those cases everyone thinks they are yupees or they all beieive they are worth the sun moon and stars, but 99% of cases the union makes a mess of it and the workers end up worse off than when they started and in my eyes no one should have the right to strike in this sort of climate ,they simply should be glad to have an income at all.

I work in a company with three unions, and given my experience of the unions, I have to say that for the most part on a day by day basis unions can have a positive impact within a company. Note I said can, not always do

I don't know about union leaders, but worker directors in companies are elected.

And no I'm not and never have been a member of a union

leitrim lad wrote: »

one particular bypass came up for tender in my area, now there was 2 of us that would have been able to undertake it locally so we tendered the nra via etenders notices for the bypass, cost me about 100k to estimate and quote the complete job,would have been 18 months work for 150 people locally,but nra representative from co meath had the cheek to tell us one day while carrying out site investagation that we were not entitled to be even on the land where the road was going (my uncle owned the land at the time)this opened a can of worms, 2 weeks later it was announced that a co meath company had got the bypass but were 5 million deerer than my tender, when i requested a list from the nra of the top 10 applicaints which i am entitled to do they told me that my documents had been lost,or misplaced in their office and could not be found and were morethan likely binned, also the county chairperson was from the same town as the contractors in co meath

Given that you spent so much on the tender, I would hope that you a. submitted the tender by recorded post, and b. kept a record of the details of your recorded post submission.

Should that be the case then using FOI and proof of your submission via recorded delivery you would have been able to get all of the details you needed.

*Honey* wrote: »

You are aware that it's the right of every person to belong to a Union? What would happen if one of your employees said they wanted to join one? Fire them? Everyone has the right to have some collective protection even if you don't like it.

Everyone has a right to join a union BUT employers are not obliged to recognise union membership.

As for the unions being in cloud cuckoo land? I think the fundamental issue is lack of poor leadership by government, we seem to be lurching from one ill thought out decision to another since October.

One would hope that a well thought out budget in April will go some way towards some level of stability and forward planning.

leitrim lad

of course everything is on record and tender submitted to local council and nra in person followed by a 6 hour meeting trying to negociate a deal, but the other company approached me when they got it and i didnt feel the need to put up a fight when i had the job got on a subcontract and less complicated without the bridges.
the cost of tendering seems deer but if you get it right its worth it ,as it involves alot of work and forecasts the expendature of the whole project,
looks like the government was fishing to day ,more talks to avoid strikes, the unions will just have to pipe down

francish

Have we not moved on. We will all have to take a pay cut of at lease 25%in real terms, you can call it what you want, tax increases, pay cuts or pension levies. Our politicians and senior civil servants need to see even higher pay cuts. Business leaders should have their pay cut by at least 50%. All the deadwood in the civil service needs to be removed.

ArphaRima

Rabble rabble rabble!!!
Pitchfork and torch mobs roam the streets!

francish where would you start?

Leitrimlad you are the reason unions exist. To limit your ability to run people "like dogs down the road".
Of course unions work on unity. If you faced a real union (all your staff had balls) you would have had a rebellion.

25- 30k is enough of a salary for anyone no matter how important you think you are

Well I know I'm worth many multiples of that. And that's what I earn, because nobody gets access to my skillset without paying me it.
You are an unskilled bully running a labour gang. Dont try to come across like a savvy businessman.

francish

fluffer wrote: »

Rabble rabble rabble!!!
Pitchfork and torch mobs roam the streets!

francish where would you start?

Where would I start what?

Lockstep

leitrim lad wrote: »

i just dont employ union members and thats it ,my employees have no reason to join a union,there getting what they need and more in some cases,

That's great in most cases, but I'm always unwilling to rely purely on my bosses good side. The union doesn't take away from this, it can act as a form of insurance. As long as I'm doing a good job, the boss has no reason to complain. As long as he's doing nothing wrong, I have no reason to complain.
However, he can fire me and given the unskilled jobs I do, I would be easy to replace.
Union is more of a counterweight, they're not going to chase down every employer who fires an employee with good cause, people like that are no use helping.

leitrim lad wrote: »

i
when i started out first trading i was 16 by 17 i had 3 people working for me and one of them was in a union and guess who always kicked up when they were told to do something,guess who went on strike when it started raining, so i said to my self to pot with union members when he refused to do what he was told one sunny day he was sacked. more trouble than he was worth, and of course some gobsheen called to see me (union rep) and he got ran like a dog down the road too, i wont have them idiots telling me how to run my business nor will i tolerate them trying to tell our government how to run the country

So your basing a rant around ONE unionised worker?
Ok.

ArphaRima

Have we not moved on. We will all have to take a pay cut of at lease 25%in real terms, you can call it what you want, tax increases, pay cuts or pension levies. Our politicians and senior civil servants need to see even higher pay cuts. Business leaders should have their pay cut by at least 50%. All the deadwood in the civil service needs to be removed.

Where would I start what?

You proposed a communist/socialist revolution in your last post.
-You wanted to cut the pay of the entire country by 25% through taxation, levies and salary reductions.
-You want all politicians and senior CS to lose more.
-You want leaders of business(?!) to take 50% cuts.
-You want mass redundancies in the CS.

What do you mean "start what?"!