Are the public sector workers/unions in cloud cuckoo land?

leitrim lad

im not a big shot never made out to be ,but the good times are long gone and still far away on the other side ,and we all must see sense :eek: i also heard today that a carbon tax could be brought in in some form of road tax hike in the mini budget.
that brings back good memories and funny ones too ,chasing lads with a shovel and them yelping like a dog ready to be hit , i would say that union rep that paid me a visit never heard as many swear words in a single sentence , he rose dust on his way out the gate

ArphaRima

Well leitrim lad I suggest you go back to your ploughman sandwich.
Leave the important stuff to other people.
Somebody who proudly claims to have threatened people with shovels has no place discussing "deadwood" in the CS.

francish

fluffer wrote: »

You proposed a communist/socialist revolution in your last post.
-You wanted to cut the pay of the entire country by 25% through taxation, levies and salary reductions.
-You want all politicians and senior CS to lose more.
-You want leaders of business(?!) to take 50% cuts.
-You want mass redundancies in the CS.

What do you mean "start what?"!

I was asking you to expand on your post.

I dont want it, this is not a choice, it has to happen. Everyone, regarless of income will end up taking at least a 25% pay cut. Our Taoiseach should not be paid more than the Presidenf of the US. Business leaders should be not be paid such high mulitudes of the average workers. There is a huge amount of waste in civil service which needs to be reformed.

ArphaRima

I think you've confused yourself.

Now you've stated twice who you want to take pay cuts and how you dont want one for yourself, so now I ask you; How would we enact this reinvention of governance?

leitrim lad

just take the cut and quit waffeling on about it ,by the way how much is the cut, why are the unions abjecting to the pension levy , all the government want to do i make sure you are comfortable in your retirement , as most public sector workers retire between the age of 40-60, i will probably never get the chance to retire the way things are going

Ms Happy

Lu Tze wrote: »

We are employed by what we are worth in the private sector. And for all the clerical officers out there starting off, it should be minimum wage as the work does not require any skill set beyond basic communications.

That is pure crap I'm a clerical officer, there are positions that require more than leaving cert. I know I'm in one of those positions.

And before anyone starts the "you're permanent" usual stuff, i'm on a contract and would be one of the first out the door if things get any worse. Plus i'm on less than 30K. Why do I do it if I've no job security or good pay? I like what I do, I enjoy helping others.

I'm one of the ones that voted no by the way so no union bashing either:rolleyes:

*rant over*

leitrim lad

fair play to you ms happy your like a neddle ina hay stack, not many honest ones in there like you, keep up the good work;)

Godge

leitrim lad wrote: »

i just dont employ union members and thats it ,my employees have no reason to join a union,there getting what they need and more in some cases,when i started out first trading i was 16 by 17 i had 3 people working for me and one of them was in a union and guess who always kicked up when they were told to do something,guess who went on strike when it started raining, so i said to my self to pot with union members when he refused to do what he was told one sunny
day he was sacked. more trouble than he was worth, and of course some gobsheen called to see me (union rep) and he got ran like a dog down the road too, i wont have them idiots telling me how to run my business nor will i tolerate them trying to tell our government how to run the country

This must be a wind-up. Our country is full of gombeen Fianna Fail construction contractors like this poster but his posts are now so funny they are a caricature.

leitrim lad

fair enough i am a fianna fail member ,but that doesnt stop me from hateing unions , and that poster is 100% true and i can stand by it

ArphaRima

82 posts per day and 100 posts total? Troll. Definitely.

Either that or a clueless, uneducated, ploughman-eating, shovels-for-hands dimwit.
Apologies if you're the latter.

meglome

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

to be honest, no offense, but this just seems like somebody whining that they're not paid as much as someone in the public sector.

these workers are just trying to safeguard their jobs & livleyhoods...you'd all do the same. it's not as ifthey get a free ride, they pay taxes just like you do.

It's unfair to harass public servants lite teachers & doctors/nurses. look at the underfunded schools & hospitals! how much money do you actually think trickles down to them? the "bloated public sector" (and it is) is caused (at least partially) by middle management and so-called quangos

Actually I'm doing okay for now which is more than can be said for many of my friends.

I suppose I'm annoyed about two main things here: The sense of entitlement many in the public service seem to have coupled with the inflexibility and the unions egging people on for strikes that will likely make things worse.

At the end of the day we all have to look at who we voted for and the policies they followed, and accept that most of the blame lies with us for voting in these wasters. (I didn't vote for them personally but you get the general idea).

leitrim lad

maybe! but with the slow down and all ,i have dam all to do all day apart from price jobs using a computer that may not even come up, just to try and keep 10 people moving atleast 40 hours a week,and you have the cheek to tell me your going on strike ,go away now and take your tablets and in the morning buy yourself and your union a few bottles of copon

Mal-Adjusted

leitrim lad wrote: »

maybe! but with the slow down and all ,i have dam all to do all day apart from price jobs using a computer that may not even come up, just to try and keep 10 people moving atleast 40 hours a week,and you have the cheek to tell me your going on strike ,go away now and take your tablets and in the morning buy yourself and your union a few bottles of copon

I think I hear the worlds smallest violin playing for you:rolleyes:

meglome

leitrim lad wrote: »

fair enough i am a fianna fail member ,but that doesnt stop me from hateing unions , and that poster is 100% true and i can stand by it

You reap what you sow. So trying to blame others for what you had a major hand in yourself in hypocritical.

Godge

leitrim lad wrote: »

fair enough i am a fianna fail member ,but that doesnt stop me from hateing unions , and that poster is 100% true and i can stand by it

Going back to your original post, the first cloud cuckoo land dwellers were those in the construction industry that believed the message in that movie "build it and they will come" and ended up building a small city in Carrick-on-Shannon (and its suburbs) in a totally unsustainable (in more ways than one) rural property boom created by Fianna Fail and their tax incentives.

Funnily, most of them were tax-dodging construction sub-contractors Fianna Fail members from Leitrim - sound familiar? Boom over, they looked for someone else to blame and fixated on unions, public sector workers and social welfare fraudsters, forgetting that a long hard look in the mirror was more appropriate.

Simplicius

As a Construction Worker, I lost my job 3 times in the last 18 months, but have been lucky enough through sheer determination to be out of work no longer than a few weeks each time. I live in fear as there is nothing on the horizon job wise. I am earning 50% of what I did a year ago and more tax is coming in the budget.

But that is background to what I want to say.

We need this strike like a hole in the head; you don't let the air out of a second tire because you have a puncture in another.

We need to sell Ireland Inc and forget your nimbyism. It does not look good when you are begging for money, like our government are if you have civil unrest.

There are plenty of routes to negotiating your best deal. But if anyone thinks their earnings are not going to drop by up to 30% in the next 6 months… you need to wake up

It does not matter that others got rich …….. That is life!

It does not matter that bankers, Regulators and FAS Directors walked away with huge pensions ….that is life

It does not matter that Fitzpatrick took huge Directors loans, he acted inside the limits of the law…….. That is life

None of this changes where we are now

Chasing them and recovering that money will cost us as much and achieve nothing but a need for finger pointing and childish revenge.

For pity’s sake IRELAND grow the F. up, we are in deep here and sinking. The truth about the big two banks has been suppressed, they should have been nationalised already. If they are nationalised forget a 2 year recovery think 10.

This is about honesty and team effort. What is wrong is we have a political system that is in bed with so many factions and lacks leadership.

SIPTU and Developers are equal bed fellows to FF, much as one side might want us to forget they took part in the big deal and saw nothing coming either but made sure they got decent money.

Thus our politicians do not know how to lead, they know how to merely pander to interest groups. That is why you will hear the whisper of the IMF all over everything that is done by this government from here on in, the IMF is here in spirit already, and we are on our final warning.

When I fantasize about our recovery I dream of stringent leadership. It goes something like this

TD’s reduced by a 1/3rd and those remaining get 35 days plus statutory holidays off, not 3 months.
Td’s earn a max of €70K & Expenses cut to the core.
Senate paid for part time work and reduced by 50% in cost.
Departments reduced further.

Now the Government has done it’s bit then they go for the politically soft options

All Civil service pensions and previous deal reneged on and max State pension is €80K per annum regardless.
Deal with hospital consultants withdrawn, new deal of 150K , like it or lump it, loads of doctors now looking for work. What better time to finally break their stranglehold.
Civil Service department moratorium on temporary or permanent contracts

Then show us the balance sheet, only now when we know you have done all you can.

Then we might row in when you need to

Reduce the dole
Tax us more
Pension levy
Etc Etc

And for pity's sake , Education is key to Success, reduce dole benefits for early school leavers and add incentives to those who stay on.

In other words, you useless shower of idiots, lead from the front. We are not stupid we want out of this, most people will follow you into temporary hardship if we believe you have already suffered and know what you are doing.

Stop witch hunting and appeasing the media and get on with leading.

DJDC

Stop witch hunting and appeasing the media and get on with leading.

You take some good photos.

ArphaRima

Simplicious you seem to be rather simplistic in your ambitions.

I agree with the strike being needless. I disagree with the aims of it, so I would think that. But to the unions, the are looking to force the governments hand. They might well succeed seeing how weak our leadership is. I'd do it if I was CS/PS. Private sector unions have no place in that march however imho.

But if anyone thinks their earnings are not going to drop by up to 30%...you need to wake up

Mine wont. But that's beside the point. I am willing to take around 20%. That's because I'm emigrating for a short time mind you. I just think this country is f*cked for the next while, and dont want to be here for it.

This IMF thing is blown out of proportion. We are a sovereign country. No external entity comes in without an invitation. However if we become a basket case, and upset the EMU and our partners, we may have no choice. But its not an inevitability.

Everything you mention about the TD's etc just isnt going to make any effect. They are too small in number.

All Civil service pensions and previous deal reneged on and max State pension is €80K per annum regardless.
Deal with hospital consultants withdrawn, new deal of 150K , like it or lump it, loads of doctors now looking for work. What better time to finally break their stranglehold.
Civil Service department moratorium on temporary or permanent contracts

The entire CS would rightly go AWOL, national strikes, riots, etc. I know I would if a government illegally witheld my pension for work served. It's illegal. The courts would overturn any "reneged" deals decision.
The entire hospital system would collapse, again on strikes. And believe it or not doctors do deserve high salaries. (I'm not a doctor btw) What are you going to do then? Call in the army?!

Ok. So now the army are running hospitals, and we have the CS/PS out on the streets.

Go for the dole people. Everyone who paid their PRSI for their whole lives can have the promised safety net removed. Add to the rioters.
Tax. Sure. Make yourselves more unpopular.
Pension levy. Sure why not?

Ok who's left to vote for you now?!
You're out on the dole.

redblue

stevoman wrote: »

And i have put up with the measly wage for the last 9 years because of job security. i have watched my firends lauph and brag to me in good times about howe crap my wage was but i put up with it because i knew my job was safe. IMO that was enough of a sacrafice in good times to watch others make a lot while i kept up with a crappy wage. but know im expected to take even less of a crappy wage becaouse the very ones who were making the money are now crying to me about it. i dont think so.

Can you clarify this line of thinking about giving up salary in return for job security? When people say "I gave up X in return for Y" they can mean a number of different things.

One of them is that they make a personal choice - "I gave up a promotion for more time with my children", "I gave up further education to get my working life started", "I gave up my life here to move to New Zealand with my girlfriend" etc, etc. Maybe it'll work out, maybe it won't, but it's your responsibility. If your choice of less salary in return for more security is a personal choice, then good luck with that, but you make the choice in the knowledge that these things don't always work out. You made an assumption that a government job was always a safe job, this assumption may be proven wrong by events, and if it's proven wrong the world doesn't owe you compensation, you just have to move on.

The other thing it might mean is that there was some explicit contract - your employer was willing to give you a higher salary, you (or your union reps) turned that down, you asked for lifetime employment instead, your employer valued your skills so highly that they said yes. So it's not just a personal choice - you've made a deal with your employer, you've kept up your end of the bargain, and it's now up to your employer to keep up their end. Now, it wouldn't surprise me if a FF government was irresponsible enough in the past few years to sign such a contract on behalf of the Irish public, in which case the Irish public may be legally obliged to keep up their end of the bargain, but they don't have to be happy about paying for a bad decision made by their representatives.

You talk about the sacrifice of watching other people make money. This sounds like envy to me. It means one thing to talk about sacrificing your own income for your own job security - that falls into the category mentioned above of a personal choice, but it means something different when you pick out somebody with a higher income than yourself, compare yourself with them, imply that your choice of a lower income is what made possible their higher income, and regard this person as now owing you for your noble gesture. By the way, private sector workers do make sacrifices in their income to finance public sector salaries, so it's not just envy that makes them question PS incomes.

You also describe some set of crude, vulgar "friends" and some dysfunctional relationship dynamics of them looking down their noses at you, you looking enviously at their incomes, them falling on harder times and looking enviously at your job security, you feeling that they've got their comeuppance and that your virtue has finally been rewarded. I take it that you're not making a point in this particular discussion forum about your bad choice of people to make friends with and the nasty things they've said to you, that these "friends" are supposed to represent (I guess) private sector employees in general. I don't object to your picking out the most unpleasing individual representatives and making them stand for a whole sector of society, there are caricatures flying around on both sides of the debate. The one point in the caricature I'd question is the part about your "friends" laughing at you because you were paid less than them. I'm not sure how that can be made to stand for a private sector attitude to the public sector. The kind of crude and narrow-souled person who'd look down on somebody because of their comparative poverty is representative of neither the private nor the public sector, but besides that, it's never been the case, be it before, during, or after the boom, and be it fairly or unfairly, that private sector workers have regarded public sector workers as being underpaid.

stevoman

redblue wrote: »

Can you clarify this line of thinking about giving up salary in return for job security? When people say "I gave up X in return for Y" they can mean a number of different things.

One of them is that they make a personal choice - "I gave up a promotion for more time with my children", "I gave up further education to get my working life started", "I gave up my life here to move to New Zealand with my girlfriend" etc, etc. Maybe it'll work out, maybe it won't, but it's your responsibility. If your choice of less salary in return for more security is a personal choice, then good luck with that, but you make the choice in the knowledge that these things don't always work out. You made an assumption that a government job was always a safe job, this assumption may be proven wrong by events, and if it's proven wrong the world doesn't owe you compensation, you just have to move on.

The other thing it might mean is that there was some explicit contract - your employer was willing to give you a higher salary, you (or your union reps) turned that down, you asked for lifetime employment instead, your employer valued your skills so highly that they said yes. So it's not just a personal choice - you've made a deal with your employer, you've kept up your end of the bargain, and it's now up to your employer to keep up their end. Now, it wouldn't surprise me if a FF government was irresponsible enough in the past few years to sign such a contract on behalf of the Irish public, in which case the Irish public may be legally obliged to keep up their end of the bargain, but they don't have to be happy about paying for a bad decision made by their representatives.

You talk about the sacrifice of watching other people make money. This sounds like envy to me. It means one thing to talk about sacrificing your own income for your own job security - that falls into the category mentioned above of a personal choice, but it means something different when you pick out somebody with a higher income than yourself, compare yourself with them, imply that your choice of a lower income is what made possible their higher income, and regard this person as now owing you for your noble gesture. By the way, private sector workers do make sacrifices in their income to finance public sector salaries, so it's not just envy that makes them question PS incomes.

You also describe some set of crude, vulgar "friends" and some dysfunctional relationship dynamics of them looking down their noses at you, you looking enviously at their incomes, them falling on harder times and looking enviously at your job security, you feeling that they've got their comeuppance and that your virtue has finally been rewarded. I take it that you're not making a point in this particular discussion forum about your bad choice of people to make friends with and the nasty things they've said to you, that these "friends" are supposed to represent (I guess) private sector employees in general. I don't object to your picking out the most unpleasing individual representatives and making them stand for a whole sector of society, there are caricatures flying around on both sides of the debate. The one point in the caricature I'd question is the part about your "friends" laughing at you because you were paid less than them. I'm not sure how that can be made to stand for a private sector attitude to the public sector. The kind of crude and narrow-souled person who'd look down on somebody because of their comparative poverty is representative of neither the private nor the public sector, but besides that, it's never been the case, be it before, during, or after the boom, and be it fairly or unfairly, that private sector workers have regarded public sector workers as being underpaid.

you have obviously spent a lot of time delving deep into my posts and trying to delve deep into my mind presuming im feeling deep feelings of "envy" and that i have made bad choices in "dysfunctional relationships" with friends.

its an awful pity your wrong. :rolleyes:

jimmmy

redblue wrote: »

it's never been the case, be it before, during, or after the boom, and be it fairly or unfairly, that private sector workers have regarded public sector workers as being underpaid.

nail, head, hammer. I know a good few private sector workers and public sector workers : its always been the private sector workers and self employed on average who get paid less, have less of a lifestyle, take less sick days etc, fewer holidays, have less security and no guaranteed fixed rate pension to look forward to.

Anyone who is in the retail trade now selling luxury items - if they get a customer - they could put a bet on if the purchaser is private or public sector. Thats the reality, like it or not.

irish_bob

Simplicius wrote: »

As a Construction Worker, I lost my job 3 times in the last 18 months, but have been lucky enough through sheer determination to be out of work no longer than a few weeks each time. I live in fear as there is nothing on the horizon job wise. I am earning 50% of what I did a year ago and more tax is coming in the budget.

But that is background to what I want to say.

We need this strike like a hole in the head; you don't let the air out of a second tire because you have a puncture in another.

We need to sell Ireland Inc and forget your nimbyism. It does not look good when you are begging for money, like our government are if you have civil unrest.

There are plenty of routes to negotiating your best deal. But if anyone thinks their earnings are not going to drop by up to 30% in the next 6 months… you need to wake up

It does not matter that others got rich …….. That is life!

It does not matter that bankers, Regulators and FAS Directors walked away with huge pensions ….that is life

It does not matter that Fitzpatrick took huge Directors loans, he acted inside the limits of the law…….. That is life

None of this changes where we are now

Chasing them and recovering that money will cost us as much and achieve nothing but a need for finger pointing and childish revenge.

For pity’s sake IRELAND grow the F. up, we are in deep here and sinking. The truth about the big two banks has been suppressed, they should have been nationalised already. If they are nationalised forget a 2 year recovery think 10.

This is about honesty and team effort. What is wrong is we have a political system that is in bed with so many factions and lacks leadership.

SIPTU and Developers are equal bed fellows to FF, much as one side might want us to forget they took part in the big deal and saw nothing coming either but made sure they got decent money.

Thus our politicians do not know how to lead, they know how to merely pander to interest groups. That is why you will hear the whisper of the IMF all over everything that is done by this government from here on in, the IMF is here in spirit already, and we are on our final warning.

When I fantasize about our recovery I dream of stringent leadership. It goes something like this

TD’s reduced by a 1/3rd and those remaining get 35 days plus statutory holidays off, not 3 months.
Td’s earn a max of €70K & Expenses cut to the core.
Senate paid for part time work and reduced by 50% in cost.
Departments reduced further.

Now the Government has done it’s bit then they go for the politically soft options

All Civil service pensions and previous deal reneged on and max State pension is €80K per annum regardless.
Deal with hospital consultants withdrawn, new deal of 150K , like it or lump it, loads of doctors now looking for work. What better time to finally break their stranglehold.
Civil Service department moratorium on temporary or permanent contracts

Then show us the balance sheet, only now when we know you have done all you can.

Then we might row in when you need to

Reduce the dole
Tax us more
Pension levy
Etc Etc

And for pity's sake , Education is key to Success, reduce dole benefits for early school leavers and add incentives to those who stay on.

In other words, you useless shower of idiots, lead from the front. We are not stupid we want out of this, most people will follow you into temporary hardship if we believe you have already suffered and know what you are doing.

Stop witch hunting and appeasing the media and get on with leading.

fantastic post , most sensible down to earth post ive read in weeks

Lu Tze

Ms Happy wrote: »

That is pure crap I'm a clerical officer, there are positions that require more than leaving cert. I know I'm in one of those positions.

And before anyone starts the "you're permanent" usual stuff, i'm on a contract and would be one of the first out the door if things get any worse. Plus i'm on less than 30K. Why do I do it if I've no job security or good pay? I like what I do, I enjoy helping others.

I'm one of the ones that voted no by the way so no union bashing either:rolleyes:

*rant over*

If you read my previous post i described what i had seen clerical officers doing, filing, typing, answering the phone and photocopying.

Perhaps there are clerical officer positions which differ from this greatly but i saw none in local authorities, this is what the lower admin grades did. Does this not cover the duties of 70% or more of the lower grades?

Are there many positions like yours that require skillsets far beyond basic communications skills and hand eye coordination?

My compliments to you though, that was a selfless choice you made, and a credit to you.

leitrim lad

Dear godge in not a builder neither,but i do agree with you on carrick on shannon ,the town i hail from has been destroyed by yupees from the greater dublin area who discovered we had mbna headquarters,and masonite in a small county leitrim town that was undeveloped as they put it, and guess what both mbna and masonite could close any day now, more private sector workers facing dole ques.
my work is based more on roads,bridges,water,sewage schemes,canals,rivers,and so on also rail,but you cannot strike just take a look at the type of work i do and tell me i will be busy in 3 months time, shane ross said the truth on the oireachtas report last night ,,,,,

meglome

irish_bob wrote: »

fantastic post , most sensible down to earth post ive read in weeks

I'd have to agree with you there.

leitrim lad

cuckoo cuckoo,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, just like the bankers all in a land of their own, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,think they are all above the ordinary decent private sector,,,,,,,,,:D,,,,,,,

oscarBravo

leitrim lad wrote: »

cuckoo cuckoo,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, just like the bankers all in a land of their own, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,think they are all above the ordinary decent private sector,,,,,,,,,:D,,,,,,,

This is a forum for serious political discussion, not for random polemic rants. If you don't have something of value to contribute, please don't bother posting.

leitrim lad

ya well its better than reading some of the nonsence posted by unioners,just remember if the private sector looses much more you wont have to worry about strike,or pensions,or dole, because you wont have it

oscarBravo

leitrim lad wrote: »

ya well its better than reading some of the nonsence posted by unioners,just remember if the private sector looses much more you wont have to worry about strike,or pensions,or dole, because you wont have it

I think you might have missed this bit:

oscarBravo wrote: »

If you don't have something of value to contribute, please don't bother posting.

Dr Galen

leitrim lad wrote: »

ya well its better than reading some of the nonsence posted by unioners,just remember if the private sector looses much more you wont have to worry about strike,or pensions,or dole, because you wont have it

hold on, lets get real here. According to the last stats we still had 90% of the workforce in a job. Unemployment is running at 10.4%. Of course thats bad, but lets not go overboard here. I'm sick to death of your ranting, your adding nothing to the discussion apart from spite and anti-union nonsense. You also seem unable to grasp anything other than the populist crapola floating around the place.

Seriously, grow up will ya, I'd imagine your an intelligent bloke so start acting like it